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LogicNinja posted:You know, I just wish they'd do away with per day abilities entirely. "Per day" is just such bad design that perforce skews campaign/adventure design. This has to do with designers being unwilling to decouple their pacing mechanics from "real" measures of time.
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Sep 14, 2017 07:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:This has to do with designers being unwilling to decouple their pacing mechanics from "real" measures of time. FantasyCraft has abilities that are broken down by scene, adventure, etc. I believe, various narrative milestones in addition to (or maybe in place of, it's been a while) the usual denominations of time.
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Sep 14, 2017 07:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:This has to do with designers being unwilling to decouple their pacing mechanics from "real" measures of time. Short rest ("as long as you can take a quick 5/10/30-minute or however long") break abilities work that way and are still better for the rest of the system, since you can design "waves of enemies" grueling encounters or generally expect people to have all of their abilities available. Stronger abilities should be balanced in other ways, not by limited use.
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Sep 14, 2017 07:54
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Rand Brittain posted:Mage pretty much brought that on itself by making a new edition that was dedicated to explaining how much of the stuff they sold you in the previous edition was bad, and you were a fool for liking it. Wasn't that pretty much the whole setting design philosophy of New WoD? I mean, I think Changeling actually did write a very different and thus much more interesting setting, so there's that.
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Sep 14, 2017 08:17
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Liquid Communism posted:Wasn't that pretty much the whole setting design philosophy of New WoD?
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Sep 14, 2017 08:24
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LogicNinja posted:You know, I just wish they'd do away with per day abilities entirely. "Per day" is just such bad design that perforce skews campaign/adventure design. "Per day" is ultimately a totally arbitrary unit of time that stands in for "a significant period of downtime which players must have the time to take" so they could rename them, but to be fair, most people make dailies a per-arc thing rather than per-ingame-day.
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Sep 14, 2017 08:44
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Liquid Communism posted:Wasn't that pretty much the whole setting design philosophy of New WoD? This is certainly what a lot of oWoD grogs think, yes. e; to expound on this a bit, if this was a setting design philosophy for the nWoD it was far less outspoken as opposed to D&D Next where Mike Mearls is giving interviews literally spouting edition warrior talking points. I have never actually seen any compelling evidence that the nWoD was intended as a big reactionary "take that!" against the oWoD or its fans. Plenty of people certainly do interpret the direction that the nWoD took as evidence of this the same way that people take contrails in the sky as evidence that the government is spraying mind control chemicals over their homes, but I'm fairly certain that they both have about as much basis in reality. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Sep 14, 2017 |
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Sep 14, 2017 08:48
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nWoD had some core changes that differentiated it from oWoD, but these were hard to notice due to the similarities. It came as more of a remix than reboot, and it's always easier to fixate on what's missing instead of what's been added.
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Sep 14, 2017 12:21
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As a dyed-in-the-wool 'superheroes with fangs/katanas and trenchcoats' player of Masquerade, it was immediately obvious that Requiem had been designed to rule that poo poo out from the very start. Which is fine. It was just a really obvious change when you'd been Playing Vampire Wrong for ten years already.
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Sep 14, 2017 13:32
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Kai Tave posted:This is certainly what a lot of oWoD grogs think, yes. The absolute closest thing I could see the nWoD being a reaction to oWoD is that the bad guys in Werewolf: The Forsaken were pretty obviously Apocalypse's Garou Nation only mildly exaggerated, a bunch of monstrous blood purists and religious fanatics.
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Sep 14, 2017 13:38
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NinjaDebugger posted:Let's be honest here, The Legend of Drizzt would be their first go, and possibly the only time in history that hollywood whitewashing something would be a good idea.
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Sep 14, 2017 13:39
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Liquid Communism posted:Wasn't that pretty much the whole setting design philosophy of New WoD? I mean, I think Changeling actually did write a very different and thus much more interesting setting, so there's that. Yeah, but Revised and New WoD weren't the same thing; Revised was basically a 3rd Edition of oWoD, and IIRC none of the Revised editions took such a hatchet to previous editions as Mage's did. I loved it, mind you, as it encouraged Mage games to actually be more about shaping consensus and changing the world than about loving off to the spirit worlds in your Ethership or what have you, but that opinion was not universal, and understandably so, as loving off to the spirit worlds could be a lot of fun.
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Sep 14, 2017 14:53
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Saguaro PI posted:The absolute closest thing I could see the nWoD being a reaction to oWoD is that the bad guys in Werewolf: The Forsaken were pretty obviously Apocalypse's Garou Nation only mildly exaggerated, a bunch of monstrous blood purists and religious fanatics. Changeling: The Lost has a bit of that, too. The real fairies who can be physically harmed by boredom and haunt the dreams of humanity are now horrifying villains insteads of protagonists.
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Sep 14, 2017 14:58
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The fun part of Mage 2nd vs Revised flamewars is how many things people blamed on Mage Revised actually happened in 2E books. And not even like ,later in the line 2E books.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:00
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Saguaro PI posted:The absolute closest thing I could see the nWoD being a reaction to oWoD is that the bad guys in Werewolf: The Forsaken were pretty obviously Apocalypse's Garou Nation only mildly exaggerated, a bunch of monstrous blood purists and religious fanatics. They also wanted to get rid of the weird furry under/overtones that W:TA had, so they got rid of the Fera except for Rat and Spider shifters, who were explicitly villainous and disgusting. Got rid of the Lupus and Metis. And made it so that Forsaken on Forsaken mating was somehow even more terrible as now you birth an unholy death spirit who wishes only to slay it's parents. It's also bizarrely misogynistic because if the mother tries to abort, or even claws out her entire reproductive tract and waits for it to regenerate, her body regrows the baby because it knows she must be punished for her sin. Which sucked because Metis were a unique thing as far as werewolf media was concerned, and the Fera were cool. Sometimes you just want to be a were-tiger rather than a were-wolf. For a lot of W:TA-F imports it felt like they were throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Then they released Furry: The loving and  .W:TF 2nd edition got rid of ghost children, and the Tenet that used to be "Don't gently caress other werewolves" is now "You need to maintain human connections or you'll go crazy." Kurieg fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Sep 14, 2017 |
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Sep 14, 2017 15:02
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AlphaDog posted:An evade tank that punishes enemies that attack allies? That makes sense. I can see an Xcom style overwatch ability coming into play here, or maybe shooting down an opppnent's ranged attacks with your own. It could be an interesting niche for, say, an Arcane Archer, warping into and out of the fray and raining down lockdown effects with various elemental arrows. Melee controller?
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Sep 14, 2017 15:16
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The Bee posted:Melee controller? Beast druid. It just wasn't very good because a functional melee controller would need to be able to move anywhere for any reason without threat of AAOs.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:19
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The Bee posted:
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Sep 14, 2017 15:19
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:That was the Brawler fighter, aka BBRRROOOOOOOCCKKK LLEESSSSSSNNNAARRRR gently caress it, I'm sold. Have Monk as the unarmed fightman, and Brawler as the unarmed wrestleman who Irish Whips people into each other, grapples them for super fine-tuned movement control, and suplexes them onto a room's traps.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Changeling: The Lost has a bit of that, too. The real fairies who can be physically harmed by boredom and haunt the dreams of humanity are now horrifying villains insteads of protagonists. They also said, 'No, all of you are adults or close enough to pass. Kids don't have the sense of self to return, and some probably-awful thing has rendered all of you sterile.'
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Sep 14, 2017 15:48
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The main things oWoD stalwarts hate about nWoD is: 1. You cannot play a guy who can kill a SWAT team with his bare hands at character creation. 2. There's no metaplot canon for you to become an expert on. It actively frustrates the desire to accumulate encyclopedic knowledge of canon. nWoD's really focused on making the games about what they're about, and not on filling out setting background. And to make this relevant to business: nWoD sales weren't fantastic, but sales of oWoD books had been declining as the Supplement Treadmill business model was dying out anyways. They got a huge boost to sales from the Time of Judgment. unseenlibrarian posted:The fun part of Mage 2nd vs Revised flamewars is how many things people blamed on Mage Revised actually happened in 2E books. And not even like ,later in the line 2E books. battlemind is a dumb name tho The Bee posted:Melee controller?
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Sep 14, 2017 16:02
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Kurieg posted:They also wanted to get rid of the weird furry under/overtones that W:TA had, so they got rid of the Fera except for Rat and Spider shifters, who were explicitly villainous and disgusting. Got rid of the Lupus and Metis. And made it so that Forsaken on Forsaken mating was somehow even more terrible as now you birth an unholy death spirit who wishes only to slay it's parents. It's also bizarrely misogynistic because if the mother tries to abort, or even claws out her entire reproductive tract and waits for it to regenerate, her body regrows the baby because it knows she must be punished for her sin. Which sucked because Metis were a unique thing as far as werewolf media was concerned, and the Fera were cool. Sometimes you just want to be a were-tiger rather than a were-wolf. For a lot of W:TA-F imports it felt like they were throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Then they released Furry: The loving and The part that was really jarring going WT:A to WT:F is that the Pure were still pretty much WT:A Garou, with a splash of Exalted's Lunars. What you used to play was still around, your PCs were just the gimped version everyone hated in-setting. Kinda jarring if you came from Apocalypse where the average PC was a juggernaught who knew they were doomed, but was going to go out fighting for what their nature said was objectively right.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:07
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Halloween Jack posted:The main things oWoD stalwarts hate about nWoD is: Says who?
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Sep 14, 2017 16:08
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Liquid Communism posted:The part that was really jarring going WT:A to WT:F is that the Pure were still pretty much WT:A Garou, with a splash of Exalted's Lunars. Yeah, my initial reading of the W:TF 1st ed book was "You've been drafted into a war by someone who hates you and you will die fighting an enemy you cannot beat, or be slaughtered by someone who thinks they can do the job better." I much prefer 2nd ed's take on things, TBH.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:12
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Kai Tave posted:This isn't to say that it was nothing but calculated cynicism on Mearls' part, he seems like he's gone a ways down the rabbit hole himself lately, Bas Mearls done anything heelish since the fallout of the playtest? The last thing I was really aware of was him sharing those emails. I haven't heard of anything he's done since given that I have no interest in 5e.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:18
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Halloween Jack posted:The main things oWoD stalwarts hate about nWoD is:
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Sep 14, 2017 16:20
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DalaranJ posted:Bas Mearls done anything heelish since the fallout of the playtest? The last thing I was really aware of was him sharing those emails. I haven't heard of anything he's done since given that I have no interest in 5e. Not really, after the release most of his stuff has just been normal 3.5-era grog poo poo. Like defending natural language, putting the onus on the DM to fix his bad wording, and releasing multiple new wizard suppliments including a divine wizard who gets all the cleric's poo poo 3 levels earlier because they're better at it due to their intellectual nature rather than relying on faith.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Says who? Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:This is really important and I love it and I have seen Methuselah-age grogs lose their poo poo when talking about Requiem because it's finally, actually about tales of personal horror and not High School of The Damned/Every KMFDM music video. The less-criticized style of V:tM gameplay is the one where you're dark superhero archaeologists, digging up the secrets of the metaplot canon, culminating in a glorified dungeon crawl where you fight a big bad in a crypt. That's fun in its own right, don't get me wrong; the problem is that it totally dispenses with the fact that you're a vampire beyond occasionally saying "I make a hunting roll to refill my Blood Pool." This is very much the direction Stephen Brown was going in, culminating in Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:33
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V:TM was more fun when you just decided to play Sabbat and embrace being inhuman monsters no longer even trying to pretend.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:35
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Halloween Jack posted:Well, you can't in V:tR, whereas this used to be trivially easy to do with enough Celerity. Some of the overpowered splats like Geists, maybe. I was mostly thinking "can you make a Werewolf PC who couldn't do that at character creation?" Mages and Demons could probably pull it off too with a little planning, charop, or willingness to eat much nastier consequences later. Demons in particular basically got "old, overpowered Celerity" as an Exploit in Flowers of Hell, which is funny both for "how did this get past testing when every other action economy-breaking ability was removed" reasons and also because whoever wrote it put in explicit rules support for Dio's The World shenanigans.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:39
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Halloween Jack posted:Well, you can't in V:tR, whereas this used to be trivially easy to do with enough Celerity. Some of the overpowered splats like Geists, maybe. Halloween Jack posted:The less-criticized style of V:tM gameplay is the one where you're dark superhero archaeologists, digging up the secrets of the metaplot canon, culminating in a glorified dungeon crawl where you fight a big bad in a crypt. That's fun in its own right. I have good news for you. No, like, seriously, I adore this game. I love how one guy basically goes up against Methuselahs and wins, loving up all of their plans across several centuries, just out of his dogged determination to get his girlfriend back.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:40
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unseenlibrarian posted:The fun part of Mage 2nd vs Revised flamewars is how many things people blamed on Mage Revised actually happened in 2E books. And not even like ,later in the line 2E books. I mean, that doesn't really change the fact that there's a bunch of 2e books about adventures on Jupiter's moons, and then a bunch of Revised books about "what kind of idiot want to go to Jupiter when people are starving on Earth?".
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Sep 14, 2017 16:56
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Kurieg posted:Not really, after the release most of his stuff has just been normal 3.5-era grog poo poo. Like defending natural language, putting the onus on the DM to fix his bad wording, and releasing multiple new wizard suppliments including a divine wizard who gets all the cleric's poo poo 3 levels earlier because they're better at it due to their intellectual nature rather than relying on faith. Right. That's just being a bad game designer/manager though. Which I both already knew and don't care about because I'm not playing his game.
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Sep 14, 2017 17:15
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Mr. Maltose posted:I just remember an article from someone who was discussing the D&D license with some hollywood insider types who all seemed to think the brand is a pretty thoroughly poisoned well but that was back in 2013~14 so who knows now. The major thing giving D&D more cultural reach is the growth of comedy D&D podcasts and such, but I have no idea if it's anywhere near enough to actually help the brand. But then unless you just have to use Beholders and Mind Flayers by name, you don't really need to bother with the actual D&D license to do a dungeon fantasy thing anyway.
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Sep 14, 2017 21:32
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Ewen Cluney posted:To me the actual fun, unique stuff from D&D is when it's totally gonzo and embraces the kind of weirdness that gave us Expedition to Barrier Peaks and the Fiend Folio, but I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if someone could get funding to make The Adventure Zone: The Movie. D&D has always been out of step with the fantasy genre in general, and D&D-based stuff in other media badly needs to embrace that (like the Fell's Five comic did) rather than making watered-down Generic Fantasy. When you put it like that, Adventure Time: the Movie would cover a lot of the D&D bases. Of course, that's for kids. Because D&D is for hard-playing adults and always has been.* *a lie
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Sep 14, 2017 21:42
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occamsnailfile posted:When you put it like that, Adventure Time: the Movie would cover a lot of the D&D bases. Of course, that's for kids. Because D&D is for hard-playing adults and always has been.* Ewen Cluney fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 14, 2017 23:25
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Cease to Hope posted:paizo, to their credit, realized that there wasn't very much of value in d20 modern. it just wasn't a very good game. But on the other hand, to this day it makes me sad that they went with class names like "Strong Hero." Sigh Whoa the Awful App has a long memory, I think I started writing that when coming home from Gen-Con. Welp might as well post it frankenfreak posted:I dunno, Drizzt being portrayed by a PoC has the potential to cause a lot of nice meltdowns. Unrelated, does anyone follow these sorts of things enough to understand how Dragonsfoot managed to ban Frank Mentzer? Is he not precisely the single person left alive who is most appropriate to be posting there?
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Sep 14, 2017 23:32
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Dr. Quarex posted:Unrelated, does anyone follow these sorts of things enough to understand how Dragonsfoot managed to ban Frank Mentzer? Is he not precisely the single person left alive who is most appropriate to be posting there? My main source is Tenkar's Tavern. Long story short, a troll poster on Dragonsfoot by the name of EOTB whose behavior to my knowledge is more or less ignored by the moderators (but other posters aren't given the same leeway). EOTB gets snippy at Mentzer, accusing him of making D&D worse. A Private Message screenshot addressed to EOTB shows up, allegedly from Mentzer, threatening to sue him along with foul language. Mentzer claims someone hacked into his account, Dragonsfoot mods claim that the IP Address is the same and it's not a hack. Relevant blog posts: http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/tsr-luminary-frank-mentzer-booted-from.html http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/frank-mentzer-follows-up-with.html http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2017/09/the-pm-that-got-frank-mentzer-banned.html Chances are I might be missing some context, but I haven't really hung out at Dragonsfoot or Knights & Knaves really to know their forum culture or whatnot, nor am I keyed in on the entire PM convo and how things developed.
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Sep 15, 2017 00:11
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Halloween Jack posted:Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. OH GOD THE FLASHBACKS
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Sep 15, 2017 01:23
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Kai Tave posted:This is certainly what a lot of oWoD grogs think, yes. I think you're right that the WW crowd (at least as far as I remember) was smarter than Mearls in not trashing the oWoD when trying to sell the new. However, prior to that there was that whole embarrassing period of condescending "you're playing wrong" screeds that were en vogue across a lot of their games for a while (including the non-WoD ones; that Aberrant PG is still legendary). Some of the same authors that were writing the initial nWoD were also prominent in that, and the less charitable conflated the two. I've sometimes wondered if you took the same requiem first edition book but put some new name on it instead of Justin Achilli front and center, if the reactions might have differed. Probably not, grogs being grogs, but it was this weird mix of personal and design reaction.
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