Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

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Moneyball: Jul 11, 2005; It's a problem you think we need to explain ourselves.

Is this the untimely end of the banking and financial system? :monocle:

# ? Sep 13, 2017 19:10

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# ? May 31, 2024 07:00

mojo1701a: Oct 9, 2008; Oh, yeah. Loud and clear. Emphasis on LOUD!
~ David Lee Roth

quote:

Why does a central bank need to set interest rates? Why cant I just say I want to loan someone some money for 10% and thats that? Bitcoin will give us freedom.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one. Why, indeed?

# ? Sep 13, 2017 19:27

Bird in a Blender: Nov 17, 2005; It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

mojo1701a posted:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one. Why, indeed?

I always love people who think the absolute free market means they get to do whatever they want and it all works exactly as planned, and not that they will be ground into dust by all the cutthroats around them.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 19:35

Hoodwinker: Nov 7, 2005

Bird in a Blender posted:

I always love people who think the absolute free market means they get to do whatever they want and it all works exactly as planned, and not that they will be ground into dust by all the cutthroats around them.

Duh, it's the "free" market :rolleyes:

The kind of people who want the absolute freedom they so vocally desire are the kind of people who aren't cutthroat enough to survive it, because all the cutthroats today either a) don't care and break the rules anyway or b) know how to get around it and c) have a lot more practice at doing it.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 19:48

Elephanthead: Sep 11, 2008; Toilet Rascal

Lol Chase CEO saying an investment is too risky. This is not an endorsement of bitcoin cause he is spot on but I still laughed. Don't speculate on bitcoins or do who cares.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 19:54

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

As a personal investment, risky, but sure, whatever. As an institutional investment? Indefensible and definitely would get you fired.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 20:05

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

Hoodwinker posted:

Duh, it's the "free" market

The kind of people who want the absolute freedom they so vocally desire are the kind of people who aren't cutthroat enough to survive it, because all the cutthroats today either a) don't care and break the rules anyway or b) know how to get around it and c) have a lot more practice at doing it.

Yeah, a lot of parallels to the people with apocalypse fantasies where they will be a rugged and strong survivor rather than an instantly dead person like almost everyone else.
They think they'll be the captains of industry rather than one of the enslaved masses.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 20:36

Ancillary Character: Jul 25, 2007; Going about life as if I were a third-tier ancillary character

https://bgr.com/2017/09/13/iphone-x-price-isnt-really-1000-chill-winston/

Wow, if I keep upgrading my phone every year on payment plans, I'm really just paying half-price. Someone give this guy a Nobel Prize in Economics.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 20:58

Blinky2099: May 27, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Ancillary Character posted:

https://bgr.com/2017/09/13/iphone-x-price-isnt-really-1000-chill-winston/

Wow, if I keep upgrading my phone every year on payment plans, I'm really just paying half-price. Someone give this guy a Nobel Prize in Economics.

Does something truly cost $1000 if you can sell it 12 months later for 32-40% of its initial value? (but only after you buy another $1000 thing)

This type of logic makes buying new cars and selling them 1 year later for ~81% initial cost a steal!

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 13, 2017

# ? Sep 13, 2017 21:03

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

mojo1701a posted:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one. Why, indeed?

The prime lending rate is obviously the interest rate you must use for every loan regardless of any other factors!

Why yes, I am currently a 17 year old living with my parents, why do you ask?

# ? Sep 13, 2017 21:11

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

Hoodwinker posted:

Duh, it's the "free" market

The kind of people who want the absolute freedom they so vocally desire are the kind of people who aren't cutthroat enough to survive it, because all the cutthroats today either a) don't care and break the rules anyway or b) know how to get around it and c) have a lot more practice at doing it.

Like they don't get that if tomorrow we had the perfect ideal bitcoin libertopia that replaced the dollar and all the laws were cancelled the entity who would instantly own the vast majority of all the bitcoins would be...

JP Morgan Chase and the other massive banks. They have an astronomical leg up on everyone else in all sorts of assets, and exactly zero ethics or silly libertarian idealism. They are machines that are designed to do this and do it incredibly well.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 21:17

Moneyball: Jul 11, 2005; It's a problem you think we need to explain ourselves.

Yeah but you just got to topple the system man. They're so vulnerable and they don't even know it.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 21:38

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Bird in a Blender posted:

I always love people who think the absolute free market means they get to do whatever they want and it all works exactly as planned, and not that they will be ground into dust by all the cutthroats around them.

It's a power fantasy for them where they'd naturally end up on top if not for all the pesky rules and regulations stopping them. Temporarily embarassed millionaires in another form.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 21:42

Hoodwinker: Nov 7, 2005

Moneyball posted:

Yeah but you just got to topple the system man. They're so vulnerable and they don't even know it.

Yeah! If everybody did this one thing that everybody won't/can't do (because information asymmetry is a real thing and a driving force behind literally everything from the need for spoken communication to the speed of light in a vacuum and because everybody values everything based on their own intrinsic criteria and not some libertarian utopian ideals) then we would control the money!!!

# ? Sep 13, 2017 21:48

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

Libertarians are naive idiots. This is well established by the BWM failures of their every attempt to form some sort of commune.

Please post BWM stories of libertarian idiots' houses burning down and the fire department watching because they refused to pay taxes.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 23:55

Moneyball: Jul 11, 2005; It's a problem you think we need to explain ourselves.

Too many good quotes lately to stick with one thread title

# ? Sep 14, 2017 00:11

Solice Kirsk: Jun 1, 2004; .

I was seeing the BTC price plummeting and was kinda hoping it really was my client causing it. Guess it isn't, but still loving hilarious.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 01:36

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

bitcoiner posted:

The strength of the dollar is a perception or illusion based on the normalcy bias. Perception will correct to reality. Shorting US bonds is a very questionable strategy since it's so hard to predict how long the illusion can last. Buying Bitcoin is a great strategy because it provides protection to fiat and you get paid to wait for the fiat collapse!

quote:

Fundamentally people's willingness to accept the dollar, gold, bitcoin or anything else for payment is based primarily on their belief that others will also accept it when they are ready to spend it.

As time goes by bitcoin's resiliency and scarcity will continue to be demonstrated leading to greater acceptance and higher value. However, as the US continues to pile up debt at an ever increasing pace people will begin to realize that it will never be repaid or that politicians will be forced to repay it with hyperinflated dollars. That is the reality that today's illusion of dollar normalcy will correct to. To deny it is to deny math. The debt can't be repaid. That which can not be repaid won't be.

"Bitcoin is sound! Bitcoin is sound!" I continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into an "F" in econ 101.

e: holy poo poo

quote:

This is an insightful point of view Ridenourt, and I agree with it. Well picked Sir!
But tell me, even though I'm NOT going to sell my Bitcoin, do I need to be afraid? Am I paranoid?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with Bitcoin isn't the blockchain or the limited number of Bitcoin because both are amazing features.

Nope, the real issue is Jamie Dimon's statement that Bitcoin is fraudulent. I'm not concerned about what he said, but WHY he said it. You see I have this fear that it's really quite simple to stop Bitcoin, and Dimon's words may be just the first step of an orchestrated campaign to kill all cryptocurrencies. This is because they are a very real existential threat to the US government and all central banks.

So are we expecting them to play nice? No Sir, here's what I feel may be their plan:

All the US government, the ECB, the BOE, the PBOC and the BOJ have to do (and Dimon is starting the process) is make public statements that Bitcoin is fraudulent, used for laundering the proceeds of crime and drug dealing (like US dollars are), and funding terrorism (like US petrodollars do), and this will prepare the ignorant public for the day when all the crypto-exchanges will be closed with excuse they are facilitating criminal activity.

The public will think this is a good thing, you know, stopping all those evil drug dealers, criminals and terrorists. But sadly, they are blissfully unaware the only escape route still available to them from the coming financial Armageddon in the next few years is being removed, because they will no longer be able to change fiat currency into Bitcoin.

The public won't be surprised much when Bitcoin is gone, or even understand or care really...

Furthermore, after stopping Bitcoin, the government's next step is to make cash illegal, so our funds can be controlled, borrowed or 'protected' by governments. (Killing cash is proving more difficult than they thought, but it is happening gradually.)

In summary, if crypto is crushed, and our money is all in the bank and only accessible with a credit card or by check, it will allow governments to finally grab our funds and only allow us a small amount of credit each week. Basically our funds will be gone - just as they were in Cyprus a few years back.

Ridenourt, I'm trying to avoid spreading FUD, and truly hope I am wrong about all this. In fact, I hope you see a flaw in this point of view, and if you can see a work-around so the mainstream public can continue to access Bitcoin, despite what governments are planning to do, then I'm all ears.

quote:

This is why you spread your risk to other hard assets like real estate, gold and silver, precious gems, artwork, etc.

I wonder what the venn diagram is like on bitcoiners/libertarians/conspiracy theorists.

Haifisch fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Sep 14, 2017

# ? Sep 14, 2017 06:49

hailthefish: Oct 24, 2010

A circle with its borders skewed by a single pixel.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 07:49

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

Bug-out bags full of bitcoins.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 08:20

Fil5000: Jun 23, 2003; HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS

Haifisch posted:

"Bitcoin is sound! Bitcoin is sound!" I continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into an "F" in econ 101.

e: holy poo poo

I wonder what the venn diagram is like on bitcoiners/libertarians/conspiracy theorists.

Based on a couple of people I unfriended on facebook that have gone completely down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, it's just one circle. There's only so many times you can see the words "liberal", "Rothschild" and "fiat" before you have to cut the cord.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 08:26

I Like Jell-O: May 19, 2004; I really do.

What I find interesting is the insistence that Bitcoin will become both a "real currency" used in everyday transactions, AND that the value will continue to increase dramatically. These two ideas are pushed at the same time, often in the same sentence, but are totally incompatible.

Its the same reason people don't use precious metals for everyday transactions. Something is either an investment or a median of exchange, it's not both. Why would you ever choose to pay with a deflationary currency when you could use a perfectly good inflationary currency instead?

# ? Sep 14, 2017 14:48

Nocheez: Sep 5, 2000; Can you spare a little cheddar?; Nap Ghost

No bitcoiner will ever be able to explain why the miners of bitcoin should be the basis of a currency. There is no real work being done, so why give value to the mega-processing mining rigs in China?

The dollar is based on the work done under it. Labor = value. Wasting electricity != value.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 15:36

dougdrums: Feb 25, 2005; CLIENT REQUESTED ELECTRONIC FUNDING RECEIPT (FUNDS NOW)

I was visiting Chicago not too long ago and I saw a bitcoin ATM. The spread was over $1000 ... on an ATM ...

Don't think my banks gonna refund that one. (Actually if I do the math, it's probably as bad as taking $20 out of a normal ATM, except you don't get real money half the time.)

dougdrums fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Sep 14, 2017

# ? Sep 14, 2017 15:49

Dwight Eisenhower: Jan 24, 2006; Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Nocheez posted:

No bitcoiner will ever be able to explain why the miners of bitcoin should be the basis of a currency. There is no real work being done, so why give value to the mega-processing mining rigs in China?

The dollar is based on the work done under it. Labor = value. Wasting electricity != value.

The miners get value for two reasons:

- To process new transactions and keep some velocity of bitcoin transactions flowing on top of the blockchain technology. This is the only way to use Bitcoin as a currency, is to be able to get transactions committed to the shared ledger. You need to have new cryptographically sound blocks getting generated in order to commit more transactions to the shared ledger...
- ... and to lure people into throwing huge amounts of processing power at the network so that it is harder to have a malicious actor start adding malicious blocks to the chain. The "longest" blockchain that is presented on the network is considered authoritative, and if someone had access to a sufficient volume of computational ability they could start rewriting transactions or committing false ones. The winner-take-all approach to mined coins keeps enough adversarial interest in the mining ecosystem so that it's hard for any one party to get greater than 50% of all the computational power on the network and start acting self interested at the expense of all other actors on the network.

Also the value of the dollar is not based on labor at all.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 16:14

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Another major bitcoin crash literally one day after the first.

Down 22.5% in one week.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-14/bitcoin-tumbles-as-chinese-exchange-says-it-will-halt-trading

quote:

Bitcoin Crashes After Chinese Exchange Says It Will Halt Trading

One of China�s largest online exchanges said it would stop handling trades by the end of the month amid a government crackdown on cryptocurrencies.

Shanghai Financial Service Office has also ordered to close down bitcoin trading platforms in the city, China Business News reported.

Withdrawal limits and a mad rush to get out is going to bone anyone who had a decent amount of money they were trying to get out of that exchange.

China won't ban over-the-counter/in-person BTC exchanges, though. If you have money trapped in pending transaction hell when it shuts down, then you just have to fly to Beijing or Shanghai and go find an in-person vendor to get your coins.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Sep 14, 2017

# ? Sep 14, 2017 16:26

22 Eargesplitten: Oct 10, 2010

Poor Solice's client

. At least he got some money before the crash. And if it doesn't completely collapse the rest will be worth something, just not as much.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 16:42

Haifisch: Nov 13, 2010; Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!; Taco Defender

Nocheez posted:

No bitcoiner will ever be able to explain why the miners of bitcoin should be the basis of a currency. There is no real work being done, so why give value to the mega-processing mining rigs in China?

The dollar is based on the work done under it. Labor = value. Wasting electricity != value.

The reason is so they can pretend bitcoin isn't a fiat currency(or at least fiat as they understand it, aka 'money backed by nothing tangible', which is apparently the most terrifying thing possible to them).

They'll never come out and say it, but I'm 99% sure that's the fundamental reason behind the "backed by math!"/"miners produce value!" dance.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 17:04

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

Who would win in a fight?
The full faith and credit/taxing power of the wealthiest nation on earth or millions of GPUs crunching hashes in Chinese warehouses?

# ? Sep 14, 2017 17:08

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

The original idea behind the idea that lead to bitcoin was that the coin's worth would balance out at around the cost of the electricity used to make it, so you're taking a resource with a real measurable cost and turning it into a token that represents that cost.

I mean since you can't turn the token back into electricity I'm not really sure how it holds that value but hey, that's bitcoin

# ? Sep 14, 2017 17:26

Folly: May 26, 2010

So it would be a decent medium for purchasing cloud based cpu time?

# ? Sep 14, 2017 17:52

hailthefish: Oct 24, 2010

Not really, since whatever computation time you plan to use the cloud for would be in addition to all the MW of electricity and computational time spent chewing on the blockchain.

I've yet to see any proposals for non-idiot-trap-currency uses for the blockchain thing other than "like existing encryption, except an order of magnitude (or two or three) more resource intensive for dubious benefit"

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:04

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

hailthefish posted:

Not really, since whatever computation time you plan to use the cloud for would be in addition to all the MW of electricity and computational time spent chewing on the blockchain.

I've yet to see any proposals for non-idiot-trap-currency uses for the blockchain thing other than "like existing encryption, except an order of magnitude (or two or three) more resource intensive for dubious benefit"

The only one I've seen that makes sense is for pharmaceuticals and counterfeit drugs. There's some big resources getting spent around it.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:11

Dwight Eisenhower: Jan 24, 2006; Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

hailthefish posted:

Not really, since whatever computation time you plan to use the cloud for would be in addition to all the MW of electricity and computational time spent chewing on the blockchain.

I've yet to see any proposals for non-idiot-trap-currency uses for the blockchain thing other than "like existing encryption, except an order of magnitude (or two or three) more resource intensive for dubious benefit"

I think blockchains are a great way to have a shared public record of something. You could use it + a good crypto model to run a decentralized social network, for example. But you need to have some way to keep people from writing any old crap onto a blockchain application, and a way to determine which amongst multiple blockchains is "real".

Bitcoin's was a dumb idea that evolved to a particularly dumb place, but blockchains don't inherently mean giant chinese mining megafarms and stupid libertopia fantasies.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:14

Mr.Radar: Nov 5, 2005; You guys aren't going to believe this, but that guy is our games teacher.

That Youtuber who didn't understand taxes posted an update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2FWNZhyPLY

tl;dw: He owes at least $100k, maybe up to $300k. He also didn't understand how depreciation worked so he deducted 100% of his "business property" in a single tax year (also the first Google result I got for "business property tax depreciation" was on Turbotax's website and explains explicitly how you need to deduct it over time :lol:

Mr.Radar fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 14, 2017

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:15

Randler: Jan 3, 2013; ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

Mr.Radar posted:

That Youtuber who didn't understand taxes posted an update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2FWNZhyPLY

tl;dw: He owes at least $100k, maybe up to $300k. He also didn't understand how depreciation worked so he deducted 100% of his "business property" in a single tax year (also the first Google result I got for "business property tax depreciation" was on Turbotax's website and explains explicitly how you need to deduct it over time ).

I like how he exclusively blames tax laws for this. Which leads me to believe that despite having a pretty large business he never heard of normal accounting standards and methods which is BWM on its own. :allears:

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:22

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

The hits keep coming.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitcoin-ether-in-bear-market-territory-after-declines-2017-09-14

quote:

Bitcoin, Ether in bear market territory after declines; investors prepare for further declines

Precipitous declines in prices for bitcoin and Ether in the wake of a potential crackdown on exchanges by Chinese authorities have shaved nearly $40 billion off the combined market capitalization of the cryptocurrencies over the past two weeks.

Bitcoin is now down nearly 30% from its peak on September 1. This is a second drop of this magnitude in less than three months. Between June and mid-July, bitcoin prices fell 33%, largely due to fears surrounding the eventual upgrade of bitcoin�s software code and branching out of the Bitcoin Cash.

Prices of Ether, a blockchain currency that trades on the Etherium platform, is down nearly 40% from its peak at $393 on Sept. 1.

Some experts think the wider acceptance and government approval is not as certain as bitcoin investors expect.

�The current pricing assumes massive adoption, and I don�t think governments will allow the amount of adoption that�s currently priced in,� said Mohamed El-Erian, chief economic adviser at Allianz Global Investors.

More confirmations from governments, like the China announcement this week, could plunge the value even further.

and just lol

quote:

Technology Limitations Could Cost Bitcoin Holders

...

But different exchanges have different rules for withdrawing BTC holdings. The panic sell-off during the past few days exposed potential limitations with the technology.

Daily withdrawal limits and an enormous influx of sell requests have placed some sellers in a queue that is up to six weeks long. Because the sell price is locked in at the current record low value, a panicked sale today could result in an execution six weeks from now when the price of BTC has recovered. This could potentially cause investors to redeem their BTC at significantly reduced values from what they would have otherwise been entitled to. At the same time, it is possible that BTC continues its decline and investors are able to sell at the current price and cause even more instability in sales.

Some users have been unable to queue sales and instead are being given errors with a request to try again later. When a massive influx of sell requests are called in and users must manually retry to confirm their transaction there can be an effective lockout. Users will keep being kicked to the back of the line because of withdrawal limits and a high volume of trade requests. This may actually benefit some investors by preventing mass panic sells. However, in a situation where it looks like BTC may be rapidly losing value, some users will be trapped with their holdings until the value is low enough that the trade volume declines to a usable level.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Sep 14, 2017

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:26

Comrade Gritty: Sep 19, 2011; This Machine Kills Fascists

Mr.Radar posted:

That Youtuber who didn't understand taxes posted an update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2FWNZhyPLY

tl;dw: He owes at least $100k, maybe up to $300k. He also didn't understand how depreciation worked so he deducted 100% of his "business property" in a single tax year (also the first Google result I got for "business property tax depreciation" was on Turbotax's website and explains explicitly how you need to deduct it over time ).

If he underpaid by six figures, does that means he had a 7 figure income? If so, it is astounding to me that someone with a 7 figure income thought that a lowest common denominator web app was going to be a smart idea for them.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:26

Ashcans: Jan 2, 2006; Let's do the space-time warp again!

"It's my fault for trusting turbotax to have pop-up dialogues to warn me about these things"

Beyond the fact that this guy was apparently making hundreds of thousand of dollars and didn't bother to get an actual accountant, it also seems like he managed to not save any of that money either?

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:27

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# ? May 31, 2024 07:00

Folly: May 26, 2010

Turbo tax has an audit risk indicator as part of the summary. There's no way his wouldn't have been all the way in the red, probably with a klaxon.

# ? Sep 14, 2017 18:33

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Bad With Money 2018: When I die, bury me in the blockchain.

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