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Dr Pepper posted:I wonder if there might be a reason why Yasuda conciders Lion her only possible happy ending. This is a really important piece of the puzzle, yeah, and learning the specifics of it may change my view on the matter, but since it was all but completely omitted from Clair's story I can't account for it at this time. When I talk about Yasu being passive, I'm talking about when Shannon's response to Battler's sin is "I just have to wait and trust him to return." She can't even go so far as to tell Jessica "Yeah there's a guy I like but I have't seen him in a while and I'm a little worried he's forgotten about me." Even part of that sentence could have made a big difference. And this is before they would have learned any of the really horrible poo poo about their birth and infancy. I'm not saying it's easy; in fact, it's really loving hard. But you have to keep trying anyway. You can't reach a happy ending by surrendering yourself to the winds of fate. That's the whole point of what happened to Lion this update. Even in the perfect world with the perfect circumstances, they still die a miserable death. It's not enough to wait and hope for a miracle to happen. You have to work and struggle to make it happen. And maybe you'll fail. A lot. But you can get help from others. And as long as you're still alive (in the context of witch-based meta-narrative) you can keep trying. As long as you're still alive, the only way defeat is certain is if you give up. Bernkastel learned this lesson first-hand. She didn't create a miracle because she's the witch of miracles, she became the witch of miracles because she created a miracle. Imagine her looking down on Beatrice thinking 'look at this scrub, giving up after only five iterations.' Amidiri posted:Will is the best! Will is the best!! Will is the best!!! Will is the best!!!! Will can only be a side-kick. Yasu must become their own hero.
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Sep 16, 2017 21:33
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PetraCore posted:Hmmm... the power of theatergoing forces people to tell the truth, right? But Kinzo could definitely have lied by omission about certain stuff. Was the power of theatergoing even used on Kinzo? I remember Will tried not to use it and only ended up doing so when he was either forced to or did by mistake (like through shaking someone's hand or whatever).
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Sep 16, 2017 21:53
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ZiegeDame posted:idonotlikepeas: Just so we're clear here, you believed that the Kyrie version of events is the truth because a witch, who you contend does not exist, said so? No, I believed that the Kyrie/Rudolf version of events was correct because of how Eva refused to talk about what happened, because of her attitude towards Ange, and because of a few things characters in that era of the game said. I posted about it quite a while back. I assume this story was just written down as a forgery like the others, I just happen to buy it as the canonical version of events. Bern's non-existent opinion doesn't matter much, and as has been pointed out, her red text is incomplete so the rules of the game don't necessarily bear on it either.
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Sep 16, 2017 21:57
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Ytlaya posted:Was the power of theatergoing even used on Kinzo? I remember Will tried not to use it and only ended up doing so when he was either forced to or did by mistake (like through shaking someone's hand or whatever). For that matter, why is Kinzo even alive in Lion's timeline? Less self-abuse?
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Sep 16, 2017 22:08
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Help, I went and got myself all pumped up and now I don't know what to do until the next update.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:16
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ZiegeDame posted:Help, I went and got myself all pumped up and now I don't know what to do until the next update. Give Kyrie an evil goatee.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:17
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I've had some time to digest the finale of Episode 7. First off, if there's Willion ship, then I'm hopping aboard. This poo poo is awesome. Might have cheered seeing Will again. (Actually definitely cheered irl...) And I guess this image from rereading the TIPS finally came true. quote:
Two questions. What's up with the deal with the number 2,578,917? IRC, wasn't this the number of times Bern had to redo the events of Higurashi before they were able to escape? Is using this number more of an allusion to that? Second topic of question: I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a thing to nitpick the wording about like with the red statements, but the way that the odds are laid out sounds like there's only actually a 1 out of 2,578,917 probability of being killed by Kyrie as Lion. I get that it's implying that out of the fragments where Yasu could be Lion, that one in particular still leads to death, but I'm wondering if the ambiguous statement is intentional. Eh, either way, I believe that it's guaranteed there's already going to be a way to save Lion (Will's safety is not as guaranteed, because he might sacrifice himself to save Lion), so maybe the phrasing isn't even important in the end.  ProfessorProf posted:The voice acting makes it clear that the bit about stealing the gold is being said by Lt. Yamamoto. I'll admit where I'm wrong, whoops.  I was confused who was the view point speaker of that section. I guess it's a series of separate events that explain the tragedy leading to Lion's alternate life.resurgam40 posted:cutting us off from our friends and famioly  : "Ravioli ravioli, gimme the non-abusive famioly": "..." : "..."(This isn't a jab at the typo in an otherwise well done post, I just saw the opportunity to make a joke...) EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 22:25
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:
Consider the parable of Maria and Sakutaro: imaginary people can still save us. ne: perhaps the same can be said of all religions!!1
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Sep 16, 2017 22:38
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Nah. We don't need an unreal savior.
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Doc Hawkins posted:Consider the parable of Maria and Sakutaro: imaginary people can still save us.  Maria's fate is probably the saddest of all.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:43
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ZiegeDame posted:This is a really important piece of the puzzle, yeah, and learning the specifics of it may change my view on the matter, but since it was all but completely omitted from Clair's story I can't account for it at this time. ProfessorProf posted:
You want the rest of the info on this? Go back and re-read the episodes.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:45
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"We don't need them. After all we've heard in the past games about your inner conflict and how you suffered, you don't need to say any more."
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PetraCore posted:For that matter, why is Kinzo even alive in Lion's timeline? Less self-abuse? I assume it's a pretty simple answer. Because the baby did not fall off a cliff to it's supposed death. Kinzo likely did not lose himself entirely to his madness and grief, so he likely took a bit better care of himself.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:59
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ZiegeDame posted:Truly the sort of person Nice Guy George would want to marry. That's kinda hosed up, ZD.
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Sep 16, 2017 23:02
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MonsterEnvy posted:I assume it's a pretty simple answer. Because the baby did not fall off a cliff to it's supposed death. Kinzo likely did not lose himself entirely to his madness and grief, so he likely took a bit better care of himself. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
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Sep 16, 2017 23:03
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EagerSleeper posted:What's up with the deal with the number 2,578,917? Along similar lines, is it possible that Bernie explored more fragments than that and it turns out that #2,578,918 (or #3,876,002 or #8,675,309 or...) ended with a truly happy ending for Lion and/or Ange? To put it another way, maybe Bernie believes that attempt 2,578,917, or whichever one she switched to from the one shown at the start to both Lion and Ange, results in Maximum Cruelty Points. Bernie was hoping that it was enough to break Lion/Yasu in the same way that the previous fragment was (apparently) enough to break Ange, but Lion and One Armed Will are still holding out for a miracle leading into episode 8.
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Sep 16, 2017 23:12
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Like, really. There's a lot you can say about my cool, good friend Sayo Yoshiya "Beatrice" "Yasu" "Shannon" "Kanon" "Beatrice" "Gaap" "Beatrice" "Cliff Baby" "Beatrice" "Clair" "Dr. Lou" Yasuda, but look, calling someone a suitable partner for George is just a step too far. There's things you just don't do, especially not in a public forum like this, it's like- you can't skin your friend's dog and say it was a prank and laugh it off, you can't just do that. That's not okay. That's just crossing a line that wasn't meant to be crossed. Maybe she's done some bad things, sure, and I mean, yeah, she has, but does that really warrant that kind of slander? No. She's a fun-loving girl who just wanted a pony, that's no reason to say something like that. Friends don't call friends suitable partners for George Ushiromiya.
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Sep 16, 2017 23:22
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Will is the best and my favorite character in the series. Don't have much to add here because I've already read the series so I'm always afraid of spoiling something, just wanted to say that Will is the best and he needs his own spin-off.
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Sep 16, 2017 23:42
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Dr Pepper posted:You want the rest of the info on this? Go back and re-read the episodes. EP7 has always been interesting to me in that it's not so much a traditional answer session as a translation guide--providing you with an easy, tutorial-level way to understand the way Yasu filters the events around her into fantasy. It gives you that reference, and simultaneously hands you a few crucial keys - and trusts you go to back and unlock the meat of things yourself. It really is a journey to understand a person full of human contradictions and confusion, but that journey is a large part of why Yasu is my Favorite Character Ever.
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Sep 17, 2017 02:13
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Or to put it another way, Reread Episode 2
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Sep 17, 2017 02:16
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At a family gathering and I am just so grateful that the only thing of value my grandpa keeps stashed is Reese's pieces in his sock drawer. (He actually kind of looks like fat Kinzo)
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Sep 17, 2017 02:28
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Now here something to think about, its already been proven that Red Truth doesn't mean its true or it has to be accepted as truth at all. As seen by the Red Sword beating Red Truth. So I claim "ALL THIS IS TRUE-" as a red lie. What is true in one world may not be true in another. I gladly waiting for another trump to show and change the rules again. As I said before when the author made it so that Red Truth can be overridden they opened a far too large plot hole. All kinds of things can just walk in with a hole that big.
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Sep 17, 2017 03:23
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My understanding is that the Red Truth are Watsonian clues: verifiable facts that our Watson (or Battler, apparently) can build the Blue on. The Golden Truth, meanwhile, feels like channeling Doylist truth: "I am the author and I'm telling you this is the premise of the story."
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Sep 17, 2017 03:56
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Bliss Authority posted:My understanding is that the Red Truth are Watsonian clues: verifiable facts that our Watson (or Battler, apparently) can build the Blue on. Oh, that would also explain how the Golden Truth varies in strength, because it depends on the audience accepting the direct commentary of the author. It's nullified by death of the author, basically.
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Sep 17, 2017 04:12
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EagerSleeper posted:
It'd be nice to get a confirmation on question 1. Though I watched the Higurashi anime and am working my way through the VNs, I don't recall any particular number mentioned. Question 2 seems simple - in the 2,578,917 Fragments Bern checked, only one results in Lion, and that one leads to them dying by Kyrie's hand. There are theoretically other Fragments, but Bern didn't check them.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:41
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DLord posted:Now here something to think about, its already been proven that Red Truth doesn't mean its true or it has to be accepted as truth at all. As seen by the Red Sword beating Red Truth. Oh, no, if it's red, it's true. Whether a supernaturally presented truth holds up in the Court of Illusions is a separate matter.
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Sep 17, 2017 06:48
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Cyouni posted:It'd be nice to get a confirmation on question 1. Though I watched the Higurashi anime and am working my way through the VNs, I don't recall any particular number mentioned. Thank you very much for the answers.  Also, lol of course Bern wouldn't check. She's going for maximum despair after all.
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Sep 17, 2017 07:15
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 BGM: Look Back ...The countless black pieces surrounding them were now just packed together, not even placed on the squares. Then, Bernkastel tipped the two white pieces over... and took them off the board.   "...Yes. It seems I'm really most used to hearing you read aloud, my miko." "As you wished, I've scraped out even the inner parts of the guts. Was this enough to check your answers with?" "Yes. I am very satisfied. Using the answer you have revealed as a key, I will go back through all the tales so far, opening the closed rooms like treasure boxes, one by one." "...It's fun finding the key. And it's even more fun to stick it into all the locks. You have done well, my miko. From now on, let me enjoy my thoughts alone. This has been enough..."The Witch of Theatergoing sat back in her rocking chair, a satisfied smile on her face, as though enjoying a pleasant aftertaste. There was no need for a game board anymore. She just had to go back in her mind, through the whole set of tales, to check whether her theory was right or not. It seemed to leave her pleasantly drunk, even better than the most expensive wine...  "...Are you done with me now?" "And when I grow tired of that, you will find yet another tale to keep me entertained. For those centuries, which will pass in the blink of an eye, I grant you your freedom." "Heheheheheh... Splendidly done, Bernkastel, my cute, cute miko..." "...It's not like I care. Just dry up and die, won't you. So long, for the rest of time." "You call a few mere centuries 'for the rest of time'? *cackle*cackle*..." BGM: None As the owner of the study's slumber grew deeper, the lights about the room slowly darkened. "Good night forever, Auaurora. You don't need this game board anymore. I'll take it."Bernkastel reached out towards Beato's game board, which lay on the table in front of Featherine's rocking chair, and tapped it twice. The game board and the pieces flew into the air, folded up and put themselves away, then landed on Bernkastel's outstretched right hand.  "...I still haven't had a chance to do any real Game Mastering. I just did Beato's funeral. That, and tearing out the guts. I still haven't done anything."Bernkastel's smile twisted evilly. Then, the game board floated up once again, and a world unfolded itself above Bernkastel's palm...  BGM: Liberated Liberater  "...Though just saying it would be boring. Maybe I should follow Beato's rules and say it in red." "Are you sure? There might still be some witches with naive dreams." "Ah, Lambda. So you're here? Of course, you're always wherever I am." "Go on and say it. You tell those naive dreamers." "Yes, I will. As the Witch of Miracles, and as the final Game Master, I proclaim the start of the final game. And I make you this promise."  BGM: None  A single girl... was crying in a desolate, quiet chapel. She was a small girl. Only six years old. The girl who would, for 12 years starting now, lament the fact that she wasn't on the island on October 4th and 5th, 1986... Then, a single man appeared... The man noticed the girl... and walked up to her quietly, trying not to scare her, putting his arms gently around her shoulders...  "...Onii-chan..." The girl jumped into her big brother's chest and started crying again...  "What's wrong? Why are you so sad?" "Today, a kid in class bullied me... He said the people on TV were saying Mom had ties to bad people. So, he said that Mom and Dad were the culprits, and that they probably killed everyone... I asked Aunt Eva, hoping she'd say it wasn't true, but she didn't say anything... Mom and Dad aren't bad people, are they? Are they...?" "Poor thing... Everyone says whatever they please about what might have happened on that island on that day... Sit over here." "...Okay..."When the man pointed to the floor, a group of gold butterflies gathered there and created a chair. The girl obediently sat down on it...   "Yeah. Of course I know that. I know that none of them were bad people." "Then tell me. What happened that day? What happened on Rokkenjima?" "Okay. I'll tell you. This is what happened on that day." "Is it... a scary story...?" "Come now." "Is it a sad story...?" "Of course not." "Then, what kind of story is it...?" "You can decide that for yourself when you hear it. It isn't a painful story at all. So listen up." "Okay, Battler onii-chan..."  BGM: Song Without a NameThis is... The final game, made just for Ange.  
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Sep 17, 2017 13:30
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And with that, Episode 7 has come to a close. Once again, things are going to slow down for a bit, giving you time to digest this. I'm going to hold off on starting the final episode until the backlog is up to a solid 10 updates.
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Sep 17, 2017 13:33
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There you have it folks.
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Sep 17, 2017 14:02
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Deckard6 posted:There you have it folks. There we have what, exactly? Nice try, but enough bones have been made about the red truth and how it can be misused to create a false conclusion... or to create a trap for its user, either by walling off specific possibility or by creating a paradox due to a lack of proof. Here, especially, for such a theoretical and relative term as happiness: So it won't be a happy ending- but for whom?
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Sep 17, 2017 14:12
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resurgam40 posted:There we have what, exactly? Nice try, but enough bones have been made about the red truth and how it can be misused to create a false conclusion... or to create a trap for its user, either by walling off specific possibility or by creating a paradox due to a lack of proof. Here, especially, for such a theoretical and relative term as happiness: So it won't be a happy ending- but for whom? Us
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Sep 17, 2017 14:19
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There also remain the possibilities of a bittersweet ending or an ending outside the boundaries of the game.
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Sep 17, 2017 14:24
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Battler does promise it won't be sad, but he is well known as an incompetent.
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Sep 17, 2017 15:22
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Sep 17, 2017 16:24
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Jim Henson as a witch would of been one hell of a storyteller for this game. Also, Muppet-Beato!
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Sep 17, 2017 16:31
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Someday we'll find it. The golden connection. The witches, the readers, and me.
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Sep 17, 2017 16:51
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Sep 17, 2017 16:57
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Poor Ginzo turned into a Kinzo.
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Sep 17, 2017 16:58
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My suspicion is that a 'happy ending' would pretty much have to start with Lion. Every other ending wouldn't count, at least not for Yasu.
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Sep 17, 2017 16:59
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...oh my god.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:02
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As been said Red Truth is misleading. Besides I know it is true .... for Bernkastel. It seems for most witches Happiness is something that doesn't exist. Specially for Bern who's back story I did some reading on. Bern like many other witches is a empty shell of some who was miserable and turned against humanity in attempt to fill the holes.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:10
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