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A Buttery Pastry posted:I thought the Poles had made it clear very early on that they would oppose any attempt to defend Czechoslovakia by Soviet forces? With the French making it known to the Czechs that they would not go to war over the issue two months later, with presumably the knowledge in mind that the Poles had all but told them that it would mean another Soviet-Polish war in the east. In September 1938, Czechoslovak president Benes and the Soviet ambassador to Prague ALexandrovsky discussed two options: First case: France pledged to honor its treaty of mutual assistance with the USSR following a declaration of war by the USSR due to their commitments to Czechoslovakia. In that case, the Soviet Union promised to provide full support. Second, if France refused to honor the pact, the Soviets would only act with an authorization by a majority of League of Nations members. Since France was not willing to play along, the Polish stance on the issue was kinda moot, no matter what it was, they were not the factor standing in the way of a Soviet intervention. Still, the question is if the Soviets were just bluffing, knowing ahead of time the French wouldn't activate the treaty. I think they were.
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Sep 16, 2017 17:19
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steinrokkan posted:In September 1938, Czechoslovak president Benes and the Soviet ambassador to Prague ALexandrovsky discussed two options: First case: France pledged to honor its treaty of mutual assistance with the USSR following a declaration of war by the USSR due to their commitments to Czechoslovakia. In that case, the Soviet Union promised to provide full support. Second, if France refused to honor the pact, the Soviets would only act with an authorization by a majority of League of Nations members.
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Sep 16, 2017 19:18
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Somaen posted:No slapfight like slavfight truer words never spoken etc etc
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Sep 16, 2017 19:21
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Wait, how did the western allies stab Russia in the back during WWI?
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Sep 16, 2017 19:23
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Bip Roberts posted:Wait, how did the western allies stab Russia in the back during WWI? Didn't successfully defeat Germany and Austria-Hungary by Christmas 1914 to prevent the idiot Tsar's whole country from collapsing from stress of war. 
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Sep 16, 2017 19:25
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Bip Roberts posted:Wait, how did the western allies stab Russia in the back during WWI? Besides invading them with their armies and providing large amounts of military and material support to rebels? .. Oh.. you meant during WWI, not immediately after it.
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Sep 16, 2017 19:37
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the heat goes wrong posted:Besides invading them with their armies and providing large amounts of military and material support to rebels? I mean yes they opposed the central powers backed government that took over after the revolution but that's not exactly a stab in the back. It seems very consistent that the western powers allied with the white government would still support it later. Edit: Did the allies stab france in the back when they opposed the vichy government after being allies with the third republic? Bip Roberts fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 19:40
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If the Vichy government won and the Third Republic dissappeared completely? They might bear a slight grudge about it.
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Sep 16, 2017 19:56
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Bip Roberts posted:Wait, how did the western allies stab Russia in the back during WWI? Russia suffered more than any other country, and then was not only denied any recognition for its efforts, it was also invaded by the Entente. Regardless of whether "backstabbed" is the right term, the point is that in the view of Russian leadership Russia was betrayed, abused, treated as trash by the nations that should have come to her assistance, all of that after her people helped the western powers survive. And they were very wary of letting that happen again. Were the Entente powers right in punishing the bolshevik government for surrendering? Well, the country was dying, it's not like they had much of a choice. Also it's not like the German conditions were generous, and ultimately the Entente pretty much worked to make the concessions enforced by Central Powers permanent, so any claims of fighting against Central Power influence are shaky at best. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 19:58
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Rincewinds posted:Eastern Europe: Why fight Russia when we can fight each other? Vote yes for thread name change.
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Sep 16, 2017 20:48
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steinrokkan posted:Russia suffered more than any other country, and then was not only denied any recognition for its efforts, it was also invaded by the Entente. Regardless of whether "backstabbed" is the right term, the point is that in the view of Russian leadership Russia was betrayed, abused, treated as trash by the nations that should have come to her assistance, all of that after her people helped the western powers survive. And they were very wary of letting that happen again. Yep, it's always the fault of the other countries and definitely not Russia. The existence of bolsheviks is in my eyes a sufficient reason for intervention.
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Sep 16, 2017 21:20
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jonnypeh posted:Yep, it's always the fault of the other countries and definitely not Russia. The existence of bolsheviks is in my eyes a sufficient reason for intervention. Thank god the humanitarian powers were there to support the enlightened rule of czarism and military juntas.
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Sep 16, 2017 21:41
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what is even going on itt
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Sep 16, 2017 23:50
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An exercise in attempting to blame the horrors of WW2 on every country other than the poster's.
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Sep 17, 2017 00:20
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alex314 posted:Military junta ruling Poland during that time was so utterly terrible with their strategic decision it warrants a nice post. Highlight would be trying to take Liberia. That's a joke right
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Sep 17, 2017 00:24
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Lawman 0 posted:That's a joke right We tried to set up a trading mission and some people had pipe dreams of maybe one day settling some folks there. But it pretty much ended when we started trying to sell them chamber pots with holes in them
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Sep 17, 2017 00:58
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Cat Mattress posted:An exercise in attempting to blame the horrors of WW2 on every country other than the poster's.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:36
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Cat Mattress posted:An exercise in attempting to blame the horrors of WW2 on every country other than the poster's. As things go America didn't even start doing WWII horrors until you silly Europeans had been criming each other for 3 years straight. 
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Sep 17, 2017 06:00
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Dwesa posted:For those that might be interested in quick recap (12 pages) of various pro-Kremlin political organizations, paramilitary groups and media operating in Visegrad group countries: Always knew SPD were idiots, just didn't realize how much of useful idiots they are.
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Sep 17, 2017 06:34
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OddObserver posted:Of course, to make things even more complicated, part of "Poland" were really the (multi-ethnic) lands of West Ukraine. Part of modern "Ukraine" is really the multi-ethnic lands of East Poland. Alternatively long live the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth tomorrow Kiev, next week Belarus
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Sep 17, 2017 07:46
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steinrokkan posted:Russia suffered more than any other country. In absolute # yes but loving lmao Serbia lost ~25% of its total population and something like >50% of its able bodied men.
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Sep 17, 2017 08:39
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More importantly, it's not an excuse for the horrors of Stalinism... Or its cult of today.
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Sep 17, 2017 08:48
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SaltyJesus posted:In absolute # yes but loving lmao Serbia lost ~25% of its total population and something like >50% of its able bodied men. Militarily France lost ~5% of its population while Russia lost about 2%. France didn't have massive famines but that was half war and half the tsar being as incompetent as murderous.
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Sep 17, 2017 08:58
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please come and liberate me from this thread, mr putin
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Sep 17, 2017 10:16
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fishmech posted:As things go America didn't even start doing WWII horrors until you silly Europeans had been criming each other for 3 years straight. If the USA and the UK had agreed to provide immediate military assistance in case of further conflict against Germany, as requested by Clemenceau during the WW1 peace negotiations, then a lot of things would have been very different. The Munich conference wouldn't have resulted in appeasement and the Nazi regime would have been fought before it was ready. So yes, WW2 can be blamed on Woodrow Wilson and Lloyd George.
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Sep 17, 2017 10:22
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Ok since Putin is successfully dividing us, I guess we're doing this: WW2 and why Germany got as far as it did The defeat of France basically came down to 1. the Wermacht taking enormous operational risks (debatable how big, but inarguable that they did) opening up their formations to counter attacks that didn't come because 2. France and the UK acted militarily incompetent. The shock of the Great War and the resulting antimilitarism + that they still won, made for a army organisational culture that didn't dare question itself and how it did things, while the best and the brightest (and results oriented) people stayed as far away from the military as possible. The army was not a good avenue for someone who wanted to get social status. The French and the British generals fought themselves more than the Germans before Dunkirk, and the Polaks (arguably of course) didn't lose until the Soviets went over the border from the other side, creating a two front war for the Poles while now facing the largest combined firepower in the world. Tl/dr It wouldn't have mattered if the war started earlier, the Wermacht won because of institutional mistakes of the others, and fighting attritional war against people with way less resources to atrite. Germany lost the war when the attrition broke them in late '44 (even if some people could see that as early as '40/'41). It's history. Putin is now. Putin is going to die of age soonish, and where the hell will that leave a Russia now more chauvinistic than ever?
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Sep 17, 2017 16:19
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:It's history. Putin is now. Putin is going to die of age soonish, and where the hell will that leave a Russia now more chauvinistic than ever? Eh, dude is turning 65 in a few weeks and aside from having a stressful job lives a pretty healthy lifestyle as far as I can tell. He's probably going to live until 80 or something. We may differ in our interpretation of "soonish" though.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:04
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Two decades for a country is sort of soonish. I was obtuse I guess. Still, Ianuchi's new movie is going to be a hell of a thing...
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Sep 17, 2017 18:19
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Lichtenstein posted:what is even going on itt heh, I read these on the local slovenian messageboards literally daily. People unironically arguing "who is worse, hitler or
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Sep 17, 2017 19:05
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I think we can all agree it would have been better had Poland never been made independent after world war 1.
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Sep 17, 2017 19:33
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Truga posted:heh, I read these on the local slovenian messageboards literally daily. People unironically arguing "who is worse, hitler or lol there is a consensus, since trumps election, that we chicken shits are now full fledged royalty
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Sep 17, 2017 20:15
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Don't most analysts assume that Putin will retire after this term and whoever he decides to appoint as his successor will take over?
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Sep 17, 2017 23:11
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He's definitely staying for another term. "Elections" are next year and grandpa is still young
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Sep 17, 2017 23:16
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Lightning Lord posted:Don't most analysts assume that Putin will retire after this term and whoever he decides to appoint as his successor will take over? There's been a small wave of think pieces out recently suggesting as much, but they still seem really speculative at this point.
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Sep 17, 2017 23:17
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Volkerball posted:There's been a small wave of think pieces out recently suggesting as much, but they still seem really speculative at this point. They are really speculative. Putin is visibly healthy, eligible to run de jure, and Russian side of things is showing that he will run, just taking his time to announce thing (why bother hurrying if you are him lol).
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Sep 17, 2017 23:23
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I wonder if Putin would purposely lose to cement his handpicked successor as having power and being worthy of respect? He probably has too much ego for that.
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Sep 17, 2017 23:29
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Lightning Lord posted:I wonder if Putin would purposely lose to cement his handpicked successor as having power and being worthy of respect? He probably has too much ego for that. Putin doesn't take too kindly to people who present a challenge to his rule. I don't think he's the type who's concerned too much about what happens after him.
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Sep 17, 2017 23:37
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Cat Mattress posted:If the USA and the UK had agreed to provide immediate military assistance in case of further conflict against Germany, as requested by Clemenceau during the WW1 peace negotiations, then a lot of things would have been very different. The Munich conference wouldn't have resulted in appeasement and the Nazi regime would have been fought before it was ready. So yes, WW2 can be blamed on Woodrow Wilson and Lloyd George. Fought before the agreement with what army? American military at the time was a shambles that mostly stomped around broke Latin American countries acting as enforcement goons for US corporations and keeping up various straight up colonial occupations. As to the British Army of the time, we've seen how lovely they ended up being with the whole Phony War period to build themselves up actively once the war started, what would they have achieved several years before? And this is all to say nothing of how transporting what little military capability the US really had in the early 30s across the ocean to go kick in some Nazi teeth would have been a hell of a logistics issue.
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Sep 17, 2017 23:43
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Lightning Lord posted:I wonder if Putin would purposely lose to cement his handpicked successor as having power and being worthy of respect? He probably has too much ego for that. Doing anything that weakens his perceived power would work against his interest in maintaining an aura of invincibility heading into retirement. He certainly doesn't want anyone getting any ideas about investigating his behavior as president, and I think his paranoia alone will keep him in the game in some form or another for quite a while.
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Sep 18, 2017 00:13
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Yes. All of this discussion is what I was thinking off when I mentioned Iannucci's new movie (even though I cant spell his name). Russia having it's strong man dying on his post becomes a bloody chaotic place. So, here's the equivalent of an episode of the Dollop of when it happened last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJ5dMYx2no
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Sep 18, 2017 00:58
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