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Apartheid racists openly discuss ethnic cleansing https://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-welcomes-attendees-at-confab-promoting-arab-emigration-from-israel/
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Sep 13, 2017 02:24
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Al-Saqr posted:Apartheid racists openly discuss ethnic cleansing No, no, no, it's just a democracy with a deficit! 
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Sep 13, 2017 02:42
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Al-Saqr posted:Apartheid racists openly discuss ethnic cleansing an insane person posted:Palestinians who refuse to accept either of those options will “be dealt with by the security forces with a strong hand,” as security forces will be given greater liberties than they currently hold, according to Smotrich. leave the land we've illegally occupied or we will sic our hypermilitarized security apparatus on you
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Sep 13, 2017 11:42
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I can't find any data about the demographic composition of the West Bank over time. I want to predict if and when Jews will make up 75% of the West Bank population, at which point Israel will probably formally annex it.
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Sep 13, 2017 14:01
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qkkl posted:I can't find any data about the demographic composition of the West Bank over time. I want to predict if and when Jews will make up 75% of the West Bank population, at which point Israel will probably formally annex it. Jews are outnumbered over seven to one.
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Sep 13, 2017 18:19
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Crowsbeak posted:Jews are outnumbered over seven to one. Israel was founded on a similar ratio of the population of colonialists deciding that the rest of people living on that land dont deserve to live there anymore by gunpoint, this is clearly not a moral hurdle they have problems overcoming since it wouldnt be the first time.
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Sep 13, 2017 18:31
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Al-Saqr posted:Israel was founded on a similar ratio of the population of colonialists deciding that the rest of people living on that land dont deserve to live there anymore by gunpoint, this is clearly not a moral hurdle they have problems overcoming since it wouldnt be the first time. It was less then two to one in 1947. Helped that you gad a number willing to leave vecause they were told it would not be too long before they'd get to return by their less then honest arab neighbors.
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Sep 13, 2017 18:53
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https://twitter.com/mazmhussain/status/908713109132578818 Israel is busy exporting its special brand of racist oppression, the new target is now Americans and minorities. It's time the democratic socialists of of America realize that Israel and its supporters are their blood enemies and are helping American police for a nightmare future and setting the ground to help expel 800,000 DACA kids.
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Sep 15, 2017 16:28
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Al-Saqr posted:https://twitter.com/mazmhussain/status/908713109132578818 the dsa voted overwhelmingly to support BDS and very few of them have any love whatsoever for the state of israel. e: and apart from fentone, there's really no love at all for cops.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:11
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That's a consequence of President Trump. But hey, a fascist police state is the way to #MAGA so that should surprise nobody.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Israel has actually made quite a bit of the Negev agriculturally viable, and has been exporting the required technology to (other) 3rd-world countries for most of its existence. What happens to Bedouins that are "decitizeniced"?
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Sep 15, 2017 18:56
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Crowsbeak posted:It was less then two to one in 1947. Yeah, it was about 2:1 at the beginning of the ethnic cleansing campaign. But more importantly, because the Zionist settlers were overwhelmingly concentrated in urban areas, almost 95% of the land was Palestinian-owned or occupied. This is almost the inverse of the current situation in the West Bank where Jewish settlers are a definite minority population-wise but area C comprises over 60 percent of the WB and area B another 20 percent. Crowsbeak posted:Helped that you gad a number willing to leave vecause they were told it would not be too long before they'd get to return by their less then honest arab neighbors. That's a myth. Yes, many people thought the Zionists would be defeated, but the Arab governments and forces never encouraged the Palestinians to leave; they urged them to stay put. They didn't want an exodus of civilians because a) governments are not fond of accepting mass groups of impoverished and terrified refugees and b) when you're trying to move troops and equipment into Palestine, the last thing you want is to have the roads clogged with fleeing civilians. On the other hand, the Zionist forces (the Haganah, the Irgun and Lehi) encouraged Palestinians to flee, not only through the use of terrorism and massacres like in Haifa, Lydda and Deir-Yassin but also by broadcasting in Arabic encouraging civilians to flee and threatening those who remain. The Palestinians fled because they were afraid for their lives, a fear that the Zionist forces did everything they could to encourage both through threats and massacres. Disinterested posted:Because the Palestinians don't want it any more than the Israelis do and because it's been the basis of no historical talks, international legal statements, or agreements. Two states for two peoples is the only peace format with any public support and international recognition. Yes, the majority of Palestinians support a 2 state solution for pragmatic reasons: it's the only solution Israel is willing to even to pretend to consider and it has international legitimacy(and it's better than endless occupation.) However, a 1-state solution or a bi-national state also has a lot of Palestinian support, though it's viewed with horror by the vast majority of Jewish Israelis. Moreover, the 2-state solution as it's currently envisioned fails to address either the Palestinian citizens of Israel who would continue to be marginalized and systematically discriminated against by their own government or the refugees, who would be supposed to come to the already overcrowded West Bank and Gaza (or whatever Swiss-Cheese collection of Bantustans the West Bank ends up being), a country with a 27 percent unemployment rate, hundreds of thousands of people still in need of homes (especially in Gaza), and, after 50 years of economic warfare, no developed industry that could possibly absorb and employ 5 million new arrivals. And it's becoming increasingly obvious that even that poo poo-sandwich of a deal is not feasible: Israel refuses to stop settlement construction and will never surrender East Jerusalem, the major settlement blocks around Jerusalem that bisect the West Bank or the Jordan Valley, the west Bank's breadbasket, nor is the current government willing to entertain even a peace deal without surrendering the Palestinian capital or breadbasket or the major settlements. Even at its most generous, Israel's offer never included a real Palestinian state with control over its own borders, airspace and foreign affairs. Most Jewish Israelis, including a majority of Labour party supporters, oppose any viable 2 state solution. The 2 state solution has been dead for a long time and its rotting corpse is merely trotted out as a pretext to maintain the status quo as the "facts on the ground" become more and more unfavorable to any solution of "two states for two peoples." A 1 state solution, with equal rights for all, is the only just solution and increasingly, the only viable one. Hopefully, the Israeli right's zealotry will make Rabin's nightmare, that a failure to end the occupation and settlement will eventually force an end to apartheid, come to fruition.
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Sep 15, 2017 20:00
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FreshlyShaven posted:Yes, the majority of Palestinians support a 2 state solution for pragmatic reasons: it's the only solution Israel is willing to even to pretend to consider and it has international legitimacy(and it's better than endless occupation.) However, a 1-state solution or a bi-national state also has a lot of Palestinian support, though it's viewed with horror by the vast majority of Jewish Israelis. Moreover, the 2-state solution as it's currently envisioned fails to address either the Palestinian citizens of Israel who would continue to be marginalized and systematically discriminated against by their own government or the refugees, who would be supposed to come to the already overcrowded West Bank and Gaza (or whatever Swiss-Cheese collection of Bantustans the West Bank ends up being), a country with a 27 percent unemployment rate, hundreds of thousands of people still in need of homes (especially in Gaza), and, after 50 years of economic warfare, no developed industry that could possibly absorb and employ 5 million new arrivals. And it's becoming increasingly obvious that even that poo poo-sandwich of a deal is not feasible: Israel refuses to stop settlement construction and will never surrender East Jerusalem, the major settlement blocks around Jerusalem that bisect the West Bank or the Jordan Valley, the west Bank's breadbasket, nor is the current government willing to entertain even a peace deal without surrendering the Palestinian capital or breadbasket or the major settlements. Even at its most generous, Israel's offer never included a real Palestinian state with control over its own borders, airspace and foreign affairs. Most Jewish Israelis, including a majority of Labour party supporters, oppose any viable 2 state solution. The 2 state solution has been dead for a long time and its rotting corpse is merely trotted out as a pretext to maintain the status quo as the "facts on the ground" become more and more unfavorable to any solution of "two states for two peoples." A 1 state solution, with equal rights for all, is the only just solution and increasingly, the only viable one. Hopefully, the Israeli right's zealotry will make Rabin's nightmare, that a failure to end the occupation and settlement will eventually force an end to apartheid, come to fruition. This breadbasket of words still sounds to me an awful lot like someone trying to push a totally unwanted solution on the Palestinians on basically invented grounds. It doesn't have a lot of Palestinian support. At all. If you think it does, produce the evidence - about a billion polls say otherwise. And that very limited support still wouldn't be reason enough to ignore not only the Israeli preference but also the entire body of international law and agreement on this issue up until now. The only even remotely viable reason to advocate for one state is the belief that Israel will annex the Palestinian land entirely and that therefore the struggle will become a civil rights one, but Israel is not going to do that. It's just going to push the Palestinians in to even more marginal and squashed shanty towns. In the end, the only hope for a resolution to the problems of Palestine is the consistent application of pressure on Israel by the governments of the world's great powers, and the United States in particular. It's the only thing that has ever worked. The one state solution is primarily the solution of western college students. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 20:35
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Israel will only accept the two-state solution if the other state doesn't get to actually exist.
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Sep 15, 2017 21:31
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Has this thing jumped the shark? Does anyone have the scoop on if there are any exciting developments in the works, or predict what the finale will be? Some ideas: 1. Palestinians get marginalized enough to not be mentioned ever. 2. Palestine is propped up as a tool to pressure Israel, and intermittent violence forever. 3. Palestine bootstraps for it's own interests, and intermittent violence forever. 4. Palestine bootstraps for it's own interests, conquers Israel, forms ideal Palestine. 5. Arab neighbor conquers Israel, inherits the I/P conflict, nothing changes. 6. Arab neighbor conquers Israel, then gives it away to form ideal Palestine. 7. Peaceable two state solution and normalizing of relationship. Palestine hosts Olympics around 2038. 8. Your prediction here!
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Sep 15, 2017 21:38
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Disinterested posted:This breadbasket of words still sounds to me an awful lot like someone trying to push a totally unwanted solution on the Palestinians on basically invented grounds. It doesn't have a lot of Palestinian support. At all. If you think it does, produce the evidence - about a billion polls say otherwise. And that very limited support still wouldn't be reason enough to ignore not only the Israeli preference but also the entire body of international law and agreement on this issue up until now. Disinterested posted:
The historical goal of the palestinian struggle was about establishing a one state secular democratic country:- Yasser Arafat in 1974 UN speech:- quote:
George Habash, the Founder of the PFLP stated his primary goal as quote:
The Two state solution is the pragmatic option for both sides and the best option Israel can to for itself to maintain it's position (as in it's goal of remaining an ethno-state) into the forseeable future, today the Palestinians are willing to accept a two state solution because it's the best they can hope for and has international legitimacy and that they're willing to live with and accept the loss of 70% of their historical home instead of being treated like subhumans and tortured eternally. given that there's very little support headed their way from the other Arab countries who are currently under fascist mass murderer occupation. Israel has been extraordinarily fortunate that every Arab country is currently under extremely incompetent fascist monsters looking out for their personal survival, but that day will end and the FIRST thing Arab democracies will do after killing off the dictators will be to shower the Palestinians with every bale of cash and every weapon they can to support them, and the longer Israel puts it off the bigger and longer the black book of crimes will be and the less likely Arab society will be willing to sign any peace deals and eventually down the road a few decades from now Israel will not find any dictators to sign peace deals with in the region. Pragmatically if the goal of Israel is to maintain a majority Jewish state the best option it has for itself is to simply give the Palestinians their 1967 land, call it a day with the Arab league (who have stated that they're willing to sign peace deals if Palestinians are given their 1967 borders) and the turn that page of history once and for all in their favor, but because they're ideologically a religious fanatic expansionist racist ethno-state, they will never accept any position in which they give any of the lesser races they wish to subjugate their human rights, and trust me, a few decades from now (hopefully if the arab dictators are toppled in that time and the sectarian animals are put down) their uniquely strong position vis-a-vis the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world (and the Iranian world given that Iran will soon have a land bridge all the way to Israels borders) will begin to erode. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but who knows what will happen. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 21:46
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Al-Saqr posted:The historical goal of the palestinian struggle was about establishing a one state secular democratic country:- I mean, kind of. But diplomatic entreaties made by Palestinians have never really been made on that basis, and, more to the point, that was a long time ago. The popular support for one state is much lower than it is for two states - the Palestinians aren't 'settling' for two states in that respect. And to the extent one state has popularity as a solution in Palestine today it's out of recognition of the fact Israel probably won't ever be stopped from continuing to annex Palestine, rather than out of any historical preference (which is why that support has risen slightly in the last couple of years.)
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Sep 15, 2017 22:45
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Disinterested posted:I mean, kind of. But diplomatic entreaties made by Palestinians have never really been made on that basis, and, more to the point, that was a long time ago. The popular support for one state is much lower than it is for two states - the Palestinians aren't 'settling' for two states in that respect. And to the extent one state has popularity as a solution in Palestine today it's out of recognition of the fact Israel probably won't ever be stopped from continuing to annex Palestine, rather than out of any historical preference (which is why that support has risen slightly in the last couple of years.) hmmmmm perhaps so.
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Sep 15, 2017 22:48
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Two state talks are complete bull poo poo on Israel's part, they want their borders where they want them, and will keep killing and pushing Palestinians out until they reach their goal. Then they will probably start warring with their neighbours again to push even further. Two state talks are just them nodding and smiling to placate the West. About as much use as the treaty with Hitler. At least a one state would get the borders where they want them, they just have to accept other people are deserving of rights.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:30
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The one constant is that any leader who does something serious in terms of peace will probably end up assassinated. Rabin, Sadat. This is why when Clinton pushed the Israelis into the deal Arafat wanted, Arafat backed out. Losing Rabin was a big deal. Israel went hard right afterward. I'm not hopeful for any solution.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:53
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starkebn posted:Two state talks are complete bull poo poo on Israel's part, they want their borders where they want them, and will keep killing and pushing Palestinians out until they reach their goal. Then they will probably start warring with their neighbours again to push even further. Two state talks are just them nodding and smiling to placate the West. About as much use as the treaty with Hitler. Except this is nonsense, since A) Israel will just leave tiny besieged islands of Palestinians, like Gaza, rather than fully absorbing them. B) Without the necessary pressure to accept them as citizens it won't happen anyway. And notice, the problem with B is the problem intrinsic to any solution. The real problem is 'how do you motivate Israel to change?', not the peculiarity of what it changes to. VideoGameVet posted:The one constant is that any leader who does something serious in terms of peace will probably end up assassinated. Rabin, Sadat. Imagined history. Arafat was being pushed to a peace the Israelis wanted. The only person who made any compromises (and he made a lot of big ones) in the talks was Arafat. Total abandonment of all historical borders, legal rights, etc. down to a bare minimum of what the Palestinians are entitled to. Arafat is represented as intransigent for refusing to sign an unconditional surrender. The bigger problem in many ways is the fact that HW Bush, who actually took this issue more seriously than any other president, and remains the only president to ever threaten American aid to Israel, was pushed out by a candidate who ran from his right on Israel. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 00:26
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Disinterested posted:Except this is nonsense, since I agree with you on HW. Not sure on the first part. In any case Israel has swung so far right and is pretty much a partnership of the USA Christian Right and the far right in Israel. Sad.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:33
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Al-Saqr posted:https://twitter.com/mazmhussain/status/908713109132578818 The US doesn't need Israeli training in racism and oppression, either. Could you conceivably start posting things here without letting your ZOG bullshit show too much? Otherwise it's disturbing poo poo that needs to be addressed, but it's hard to take it seriously with your obnoxious commentary.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:57
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Disinterested posted:Except this is nonsense, since Laffo, this is exactly what I'm saying they should accept. I know it's pie in the sky dreaming, but slow genocide is happening in the area and there's no way a two state solution is ever going to work, the borders would be bonkers.
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Sep 16, 2017 01:07
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starkebn posted:Laffo, this is exactly what I'm saying they should accept. I know it's pie in the sky dreaming, but slow genocide is happening in the area and there's no way a two state solution is ever going to work, the borders would be bonkers. What are you talking about? What you're saying is a non-sequitur from my post. People seem to think that suddenly the solution becomes easier the more that Israel crushes Palestinians in to Gaza-like conurbations, but that doesn't follow at all. Israel won't accept Palestinians as citizens with equal rights under any less forceful pressure than it would take for them to accept Palestine as a defined nation-state - nor will they absorb them in their territory, rather than simply continuing to make them more marginal in an increasingly rump state. The important variable is the pressure on Israel to change, not the solution. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 01:29
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Disinterested posted:The important variable is the pressure on Israel to change, not the solution. We're kind of on the same page I think. Israel is not going to do anything unless they are forced to. They want their borders where they say they are and will keep crushing Palestine until they get there. I just think a one state compromise would be more workable because then Israel can still say it's borders extend to where they want them to. I agree it will never happen without international condemnation and extreme pressure.
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Sep 16, 2017 01:43
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starkebn posted:We're kind of on the same page I think. Israel is not going to do anything unless they are forced to. They want their borders where they say they are and will keep crushing Palestine until they get there. There's no way they'd agree to Jews not controlling the State of Israel, so it's either expulsion or ethnic dictatorship. I mean, I guess Hafez and Bashar al-Assad, Saddam Hussein, and the Hashemites each managed to pull that off in their respective states for quite a while, so it's not impossible. 
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Sep 16, 2017 02:05
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There's no way they'd agree to Jews not controlling the State of Israel, so it's either expulsion or ethnic dictatorship. I mean, I guess Hafez and Bashar al-Assad, Saddam Hussein, and the Hashemites each managed to pull that off in their respective states for quite a while, so it's not impossible. The difference being that its easy to use dictatorship when you can get eighty percent of the population to feel they are part of your regime. I don't think there are enough people in power in Israel, beyond perhaps Lieberman that realize this important fact. On the other. I mean they could try. It's just that, I can't imagine that turning Israelas a whole into a giant bloodbath with large amounts of guns finding their into Israel..
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Sep 16, 2017 15:41
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quote:This breadbasket of words still sounds to me an awful lot like someone trying to push a totally unwanted solution on the Palestinians on basically invented grounds. It doesn't have a lot of Palestinian support. At all. If you think it does, produce the evidence - about a billion polls say otherwise. Al-Saqr already showed that the one state solution, with equal rights for all citizens, has been the main consensus within the Palestinian liberation movement, with the PLO and, to a much lesser extent, Hamas, accepting a 2-state solution as a necessary compromise. Now, you're right: polls do show that the 2-state solution has the most support at around 45 percent, give or take. But that number has been steadily dropping as it becomes clearer and clearer that Israel is never going to allow an actual, viable Palestinian state anytime soon and that it is slowly making such a solution impossible and it's also important to remember that many Palestinians say they support a 2 state solution because for the past 40 years, it is been the accepted wisdom that a small state on 1/3 of historic Palestine is the best the Palestinians could possibly hope for. Roughly 30 percent of Palestinians support a binational state without about 15 percent supporting a Palestinian state from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea, an option that when it comes down to the actual details, is perfectly consistent with a one-state solution as long as it doesn't involve the mass expulsion of Jewish Israelis and as long as supporters of this option are willing to work within a democratic framework. Moreover, Palestinian support for the right of return is also extremely high, and the RoR generally, though not necessarily, implies a 1 state solution. If I'm not mistaken as well, the vast majority of polling of Palestinian opinion targets Palestinians in the OT and not those in foreign refugee camps (though I may be wrong), who presumably are much more inclined towards a plan that allows them to return to their homeland. quote:In the end, the only hope for a resolution to the problems of Palestine is the consistent application of pressure on Israel by the governments of the world's great powers, and the United States in particular. It's the only thing that has ever worked. And that's why BDS is so important, even if you don't agree with its implied support for a 1 state solution. BDS is not a movement of Western college students (though it certainly has many Western supporters); it's a grass-roots Palestinian movement. quote:A) Israel will just leave tiny besieged islands of Palestinians, like Gaza, rather than fully absorbing them. When/if Israel annexes the majority of the West Bank either leaving small Bantustans or making the Palestinians non-citizens, the whole "the occupation is just until we make peace" charade that Israel has maintained these past 30 years or so completely disintegrates, as does any hope of a 2 state solution. And when that happens, international support for Israel will slowly but surely drop as it becomes increasingly difficult to deny Israel's status as an apartheid state. Maybe it will just lead to more and even harsher apartheid with the West and the international community continuing to close their eyes, but hopefully, it will finally lead to apartheid's fall.
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Sep 16, 2017 23:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Could you conceivably start posting things here without letting your ZOG bullshit show too much?
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Sep 17, 2017 06:51
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Bahrain King denounces Arab boycott of Israel, says countrymen may visit I can't but see this as a trial balloon; if it goes over well, I imagine Saudi Arabia won't be far behind.
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Sep 17, 2017 18:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Bahrain King denounces Arab boycott of Israel, says countrymen may visit The next arab democratic revolution will be sure to gift his severed head to Israel as a present when democracy eventually wins despite Israel's best efforts. That and whatevers' left of Sadats Nazi Corpse. Israel can only ever be friends with the fascists and anti-semites in the region, Arab regimes who sense shakiness typically flock to israels hands when they want unlimited police state support to suppress their people, it's literally One of the main reasons why Egypt is still blighted with pure fascism after all these years is because the regime bought its survival with camp David, all of whatever israels ties they make with evil regimes will die once freedom and democracy throws these animals off their thrones. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Sep 17, 2017 |
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Sep 17, 2017 19:14
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Al-Saqr posted:The next arab democratic revolution will be sure to gift his severed head to Israel as a present when democracy eventually wins despite Israel's best efforts. That and whatevers' left of Sadats Nazi Corpse. Israel can only ever be friends with the fascists and anti-semites in the region, Arab regime typically flock to israels hands when they want unlimited police state support to suppress their people, it's literally One of the main reasons why Egypt is still blighted with pure fascism after all these years is because the regime bought its survival with camp David, all of whatever israels ties they make with evil regimes will die once freedom and democracy throws these animals off their thrones. / 
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Sep 17, 2017 19:39
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Not only is Israel evil, in fact it's the source of all evil, like it's populated by lizardmen who emit a corrupting radiation that poisons the very soil of the once peaceful levant. And I mean that in a totally non-antisemitic way, after all I wrote 'Israelis' and not 'Jews'.
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Sep 18, 2017 04:59
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Not only is Israel evil, in fact it's the source of all evil, like it's populated by lizardmen who emit a corrupting radiation that poisons the very soil of the once peaceful levant. And I mean that in a totally non-antisemitic way, after all I wrote 'Israelis' and not 'Jews'. No Israel isnt the source of all Evil it's just a hugely destabilizing militant apartheid racist regime that strengthens and supported and still aids reactionary right wing fascist governments in the region who suppress their own population and keeps them backwards in order to maintain it's superiority in the region while they systematically ethnically cleanse an entire people. The reactionary right wing fascists of the region are side by side allies and accomplices of Israel, and it's widely recognized amongst arab democrats that the path towards freedom and democracy is made much more difficult since the fascists and reactionaries will be supported and advocated by Israel and the U.S. and will make changing those regimes insanely bloody and difficult as evidenced by what happened in Egypt when the Israeli government actively appealed for Hosni Mubarak to use armed force against the 25th of january movement and is quite pleased with the military fascism currently enslaving that country. Since the Liberation of the arab world and giving arabs the right to vote will be extension absolutely mean that the Palestinians will be supported much more strongly and arab countries will no longer fall prey to the divisions and backwardness endemic under fascism, It is part and parcel a major key strategic foreign policy goal for Israel to make sure Arabs never get successfully attain freedom. I feel more kinship and solidarity with an Anti-zionist or any Jew who's against apartheid and racism and takes it seriously (like for example the historic members of the ANC like Ruth First and Denis Goldberg in south africa or the jewish members of the democratic socialists of america who actively Boycott Israel like the head of the LA branch Joshua Androski or famous podcast host Felix Biederman) than I will ever value a relationship with say, an Egyptian military officer or a Syrian Fascist or a Gulf Royal, if you ask me who is my friend, a Jew who seriously fights Zionism, racism and apartheid or A Wahhabi Preacher who supports the bahraini king Instantly I will say the Jewish person. Because at the end of the day, democracy, freedom and progressive human rights (with some spice of socialism) is on one side, and middle eastern fascism, Feudalism and Israel as a government institution is on the other. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 05:33
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Al-Saqr posted:I feel more kinship and solidarity with an Anti-zionist or any Jew who's against apartheid and racism and takes it seriously (like for example the historic members of the ANC like Ruth First and Denis Goldberg in south africa or the jewish members of the democratic socialists of america who actively Boycott Israel like the head of the LA branch Joshua Androski or famous podcast host Felix Biederman) than I will ever value a relationship with say, an Egyptian military officer or a Syrian Fascist or a Gulf Royal, if you ask me who is my friend, a Jew who seriously fights Zionism, racism and apartheid or A Wahhabi Preacher who supports the bahraini king Instantly I will say the Jewish person. Because at the end of the day, democracy, freedom and progressive human rights (with some spice of socialism) is on one side, and middle eastern fascism, Feudalism and Israel as a government institution is on the other. While this is all totally reasonable, the one thing you gotta be careful about is possibly assuming that Jewish people have some obligation to make their opposition to Israel explicit (or more of an obligation than any other non-Jewish person, at least). I'm not say you're doing that, but it's not really clear from this post (since you just refer specifically to Jews actively opposed to Israel as being allies). Probably one of the only couple actual instances of antisemitism (or just differential treatment based on being Jewish) that I've ever experienced has been people specifically expecting an opinion on Israel from me, either pro- or against, just because I'm Jewish. Like, obviously the latter is true in my case and I don't really mind talking about it, but it's kinda hosed up to just demand/expect a political opinion on that issue just because of your ethnicity. I'm sure some people have innocent intentions (like just ignorantly assuming that all Jewish people feel some connection to Israel), but it's still off-putting.
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Sep 18, 2017 07:02
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So does Israel never expect encouraging Arab fascism to backfire on them, or...?
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Sep 18, 2017 07:04
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Lightning Lord posted:So does Israel never expect encouraging Arab fascism to backfire on them, or...? Did America?
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Sep 18, 2017 07:10
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Ytlaya posted:While this is all totally reasonable, the one thing you gotta be careful about is possibly assuming that Jewish people have some obligation to make their opposition to Israel explicit (or more of an obligation than any other non-Jewish person, at least). I'm not say you're doing that, but it's not really clear from this post (since you just refer specifically to Jews actively opposed to Israel as being allies). Of course what you're saying is correct, I'm never going to walk up to a jewish person and ask them to loudly denounce Israel and state their position or anything like that because (A) Jews are a religion not a political party, so asking a rando their views on Israel is like Asking a Muslim about Saudi Arabia, doesnt make any sense and (B) in politics there's always going to be a mass of people who are simply along for the ride, like an american or european jewish person who didnt know any better, went to Israel on a state-sponsored propaganda trip and gets his first blowjob there or maybe decided to go on a Kibbutzim or something and generally has mildly positive things about Israel out of ignorance I'm not going to say this person is evil and I'm not going to ask him to burden himself with choosing a side, I probably wont even bring it up with him, life is complicated and sometimes you just go with the flow, and asking someone to let go of an imaginary ideal that he was probably raised from birth and conditioned to believe in is a tall order, I have friends (well former friends) who are fascist or wahhabi idiots so this is a universal thing. and (C) most of the ardent supporters of Israeli apartheid arent even jewish, they're just rightwing nutbags, it's not their religion that's at play here it's their fundamental value system and outlook irrespective of religion. When I say allies or enemies I mean people who decide to become politically active one way or another, like if I meet a Russian or any colonialist who wears an IDF t-Shirt and spouts off about how proud he was to serve in the Israeli military, talks about his exploits in the west bank or Gaza and regularly encourages people to do Aaliyah and talks about Palestinians being terrorists (or people who use their heft to propagandize israel's policies and products like alan dershowitz or Haim Saban), I have to automatically assume that much like talking to an Egyptian fascist that this person fundamentally does not share any positive values with me, he's a right wing reactionary racist apartheid supporter and when push comes to shove they'd kill me and subjugate me and people like me to get their way, they dont give a poo poo about human rights freedom or democracy. But when I meet an politically active Jewish person who shares the values of human rights, equality, anti-racism and justice and democracy for all oppressed people, even if it means going against a political entity who use his religion or race as a cudgel, (much like an arab democrat has to fight political entities who use Islam or sect or chauvinistic nationalism as a Cudgel for state power) than this guy I consider more a friend and ally than many other arabs or muslims in the world will ever be. In the end, the big struggle in the middle east is the struggle for freedom and democracy and human rights, the Palestinians were ground zero in this wide and dangerous struggle against reactionaries, right wing racists, colonialists, sectarians, theocrats foreign invaders and fascists of all races and all creeds, the circle of this struggle widened to consume everyone else, and in the end all of the arabs have come under occupation by these forces, unfortunately, the forces of reaction, racism, feudalism and fascism in the region have unlimited money and unlimited cruelty on their side for now. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 08:03
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The only perfect form of government is one where every decision has support from 100% of the population. Majority rule can lead to atrocities and oppression just like other forms of government.
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Sep 18, 2017 08:49
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