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Hollismason posted:There was totally the option to shoot that person in the leg. They were advancing incredibly slowly toward them screaming " Shoot me!!" That's video game/action movie logic. Something I want as far away as possible from the police, and we already have cops doing way too much shooting when "shooting = killing". I don't want to see what happens when cops start thinking they can pull off Wild Bill shots that'll be "non-lethal". Polygynous posted:Not killing someone could get a cop sued. ok, burn it all down. Unfortunately, I can see this being the case. Aiming for the leg, for example, means acknowledging that you don't have to resort to lethal force, meaning it was a bad shoot, meaning pay this person restitution for their injuries. Also, proof in civil is hella easier than criminal. I've had a deputy and former MP tell me that aiming for anything but center mass/torso is cruel & unusual punishment or something. Don't know how much veracity there is to it, though. That Kitty just ain't right: 
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Sep 18, 2017 07:12
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BirdOfPlay posted:Unfortunately, I can see this being the case. Aiming for the leg, for example, means acknowledging that you don't have to resort to lethal force, meaning it was a bad shoot, meaning pay this person restitution for their injuries. Also, proof in civil is hella easier than criminal. If cops feel they have to shoot with a lethal weapon they should be shooting to kill, but those times should be a whole lot rarer than they are now. There's no reason to be shooting at someone that was obviously trying to suicide by cop when all they had was a knife and a taser would've worked fine. The police knew they only had a knife, they were walking slowly and looks like they were about 6' from the officer that shot them. But hey, this one was white so maybe they'll actually get some jail time. For those of you saying they were told the person had a gun, the police repeatedly and clearly told them to drop the knife. They knew it was a knife, not a gun.
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Sep 18, 2017 07:27
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BirdOfPlay posted:That's video game/action movie logic. Something I want as far away as possible from the police, and we already have cops doing way too much shooting when "shooting = killing". I don't want to see what happens when cops start thinking they can pull off Wild Bill shots that'll be "non-lethal". Many european cops train leg shots and also use them in situations where officer fires first. In case of reaction fire, it's still center of mass. It's a pretty simple logic. If situation warrants deadly force but you have that time, you take effort to aim to lower limbs. If you miss, fire center of mass. If you are fired upon and have no time, return fire center of mass. Pretty reasonable. Finnish cops shoot knife rampaging terrorist to legs. Don't give me any of that bullshit when a literal spree killing terrorirst in midst of rampage is stopped by a leg shot: http://nypost.com/2017/08/18/police-shoot-and-arrest-suspected-knifeman-in-finland-attack/amp/ French Cop shoot suicidal man in leg, video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDJ1MmyDNfs French dude uses a hammer to attack cops, still gets shot in the legs, taken to custody. https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jun/06/paris-police-shoot-man-who-attacked-officer-outside-notre-dame-video-report German cops shoot dude in the legs, dude attempts to run at them with torn legs, can't catch cop, falls down Probably due to boo boo in legs. Survives. https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c10_1450906158 German cops shoot a man center of mass due to having to react immediately, big circus arises whether they should've shot legs. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/police-shoot-dead-refugee-who-attacked-daughter-s-abuser-with-a-knife-a7335526.html German cop writes on Reddit about differences on the culture. https://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2dgwkp/what_makes_american_police_use_deadly_force_much/cjpgcbe/?context=3 quote:And I'm not entirely sure why (it probably has to do with WWII, as does almost anything in the modern German society), but police officers here will do most anything to avoid shooting someone. A few years ago on new years eve, there was a guy trying to commit suicide by cop in my city. He pulled a gun on an officer and yelled that he'd kill her. What did she do? She withdrew behind a car, tried to convince him to put the gun down, fired a warning shot and only when he actually aimed the gun at her did she shoot. One shot, in the leg. And they arrested him alive. I know I've posted about this before, and with the same jargon, but I'm so tired of the "can't be done" logic when it's full of holes, and such a blind "no one can do it! (Except europe and south africa and china and hong kong and and and)" It's also a pet peeve of mine, since I also once trained to fire a pistol, a shotgun, and a rifle towards lower limbs. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 07:31
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Vahakyla posted:Many european cops train leg shots and also use them in situations where officer fires first. Yeah, but in those non-American countries the police can be required to receive firearms training.
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Sep 18, 2017 07:43
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RandomBlue posted:If cops feel they have to shoot with a lethal weapon they should be shooting to kill, but those times should be a whole lot rarer than they are now. Totally agree with you. I was thinking about how tasers where abused and/or overused, because they were less-than-lethal. I'd rather not have the same thing happen with guns. Shooting fleeing people in the back could be excused as "misses". Vahakyla posted:I know I've posted about this before, and with the same jargon, but I'm so tired of the "can't be done" logic when it's full of holes, and such a blind "no one can do it! (Except europe and south africa and china and hong kong and and and)" To be fair, I was imagining my description of events being told by a slick injury attorney and the jury just lapping it up. Do you know of studies about how this works out beyond the isolated event? Be cool to see how it effects the ratio of deadly police shootings to police shootings as a whole. BirdOfPlay fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 08:41
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A lot of stuff isn't in english. Some is. This one lists a comparatively small amount of fatalities compared to wounded perps, along with a low number of shots taken. https://www.politi.dk/NR/rdonlyres/20DE43AF-33F4-48C5-A710-6A58457E35D2/0/Engelskresum%C3%A9afendeligrapport.pdf Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 08:46
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Maria is now slated to slam into Puerto Rico as a Category 4.
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Sep 18, 2017 09:22
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neverending hurricane season
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Sep 18, 2017 10:50
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Vahakyla posted:Many european cops train leg shots and also use them in situations where officer fires first. This doesn't make sense. If "logic warrants lethal force" they should aim to kill. If there's an opportunity to intentionally not kill them then lethal force isn't necessary in the first place. No one cares what weird Hollywood poo poo Finnish cops are taught. This just encourages cops to go to their gun more often to solve problems.
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Sep 18, 2017 11:07
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nwo hatchet man posted:...No one cares what weird Hollywood poo poo Finnish cops are taught. .. And German, and Swedish, and Danish, and Norwegian, and French, and Polish, and Austrian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, and some Italian, and spanish, and and and and. It's pretty loving intellectually cheap to wail about "some Finnish hollywood poo poo" when the opposing idea numbers hundreds of millions of people in varying countries and police cultures, and number peace officers in the same amount as the United States. Would seem like Hollywood is all over the US, rather. If a horde of american cops loving let it rip with a hail of bullets on a knife dude, that's fine, but a french cop gets assaulted, nails a dude in the leg and your reaction is "that's loving crazy". If logic warrants deadly force, why are cops using a pistol? Shouldn't you use a light machinegun to secure the deal? Oh that's right, because despite deadly force being warranted, one can purposefully use the least amount of it that is possible at any given situation, such as a knifeman stabbing dudes. If the officer feels that he HAS to shoot the dude, but he MIGHT be able to nail him in the lower limbs, he can opt for that approach that is trained to him and used to good success by countless police officers. It's not like a situation that warrants deadly force is a situation that absolutely requires a fatality, the fatality just might be a consequence. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 11:19
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Polygynous posted:I want to say they've already done this but my sources say it was a tornado filled with sharks, not a hurricane. Now they got GEOSTORM comin' out! God drat the premise of that movie is loving retarded. 7c Nickel posted:Dear god, shut the gently caress up, you've got like multiple threads dedicated to making GBS threads on her to post in. Not really. There is no thread that wants to talk about Hilary. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 12:05
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Stop asking American cops to do anything but shoot people. That is literally all we loving train them to do.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:10
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RandomBlue posted:If cops feel they have to shoot with a lethal weapon they should be shooting to kill, but those times should be a whole lot rarer than they are now. There's no reason to be shooting at someone that was obviously trying to suicide by cop when all they had was a knife and a taser would've worked fine. The police knew they only had a knife, they were walking slowly and looks like they were about 6' from the officer that shot them. But hey, this one was white so maybe they'll actually get some jail time. There were TWO cops there. Distract the extremely slow and deliberate advance of the person and then one of the cops can just tackle him... or you know, just loving mace/taze him. I super don't understand the need to shoot this person. a loving cool million blue-blood assholes will get on social media today and talk about how "you don't know, you don't know, akshually, knives are far more dangerous than gunsh", and I still won't loving understand.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:13
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nwo hatchet man posted:This doesn't make sense. If "logic warrants lethal force" they should aim to kill. If there's an opportunity to intentionally not kill them then lethal force isn't necessary in the first place. No one cares what weird Hollywood poo poo Finnish cops are taught. This just encourages cops to go to their gun more often to solve problems. oh cool good to know that you understand better what law enforcement practices make sense than law enforcement in pretty much the entire developed world with the exception of the US.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:17
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botany posted:oh cool good to know that you understand better what law enforcement practices make sense than law enforcement in pretty much the entire developed world with the exception of the US. To be fair, cops don't usually carry guns in a number of those countries, which plays into his point about not threatening use of lethal force. The problems with American cops isn't that they use their issued murder dicks to shoot people, it's that we allow that escalation of force from the Chief of Police on down to a rookie beat cop. They all get issued murder dicks to enforce the law, and they use them. Stop strapping guns to cop's belts. It shouldn't be a shotgun locked in the trunk, it should be their loving side-arm. Cops aren't here to shoot bad guys. They're here to keep order and protect others from harm. They can do that 99% of the time with less-than-lethal means, but we give them guns, train them to use them, and their institutions encourage the use of them in the in-group. I'd say, "This isn't the wild west", but come on. We all know that cops today are all Wyatt Earps, and America is loving Tombstone. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 12:24
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Chilichimp posted:To be fair, cops don't usually carry guns in a number of those countries, which plays into his point about not threatening use of lethal force. you're talking about the UK, new zealand, norway and iceland. that's it. in all other countries, cops carry guns. i agree with the dumb wild west mentality (and the severe lack of training, it's actually somewhat difficult to become a cop in most countries) but you can train your cops to not go on murder sprees at the slightest provocation without disarming them.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:33
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Only UK provides no firearms or training, rest of the three do, but they aren't always carried on belt. Depends on area, threat level, assignment and such.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:37
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botany posted:you can train your cops to not go on murder sprees at the slightest provocation without disarming them.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:51
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Kekekela posted:Things were heading that way under Obama and the pre-Sessions DoJ, but for the current powers that be, this is a feature, not a bug. Every time I realize or am confronted with this fact, it makes me want to leave the USA, I have to admit.
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Sep 18, 2017 12:52
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Synthbuttrange posted:neverending hurricane season Still 2 months or so to go.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:00
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The important part will always be that American cops primarily exist to keep rich persons property safe from poor people; stopping crime is incidental
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Sep 18, 2017 13:00
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Jukebox Hero posted:The important part will always be that American cops primarily exist to keep rich persons property safe from poor people; stopping crime is incidental I have talked to cops. They are well aware they are a force that basically only protects property and reacts after the damage is done, if at all. They don't care.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:12
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One thing that's always struck me is that US police officers seem to patrol a lot on their own. Finnish police officers, at least, always patrol in pairs. I wonder if that also encourages a very overwhelming, quick-trigger response.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:12
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Synthbuttrange posted:neverending hurricane season All our other wars are neverending, might as well go full Canute
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Sep 18, 2017 13:13
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Cops patrolling alone is loving bonkers by most european standards. Also lenient sentencing is a good tool to avoid wild chased and escape shootouts.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:16
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Vahakyla posted:
Look we can't just not have a drug war How else are we supposed to imprison all the poor and/or brown people?
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Sep 18, 2017 13:18
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SulphagneSocialist posted:One thing that's always struck me is that US police officers seem to patrol a lot on their own. Finnish police officers, at least, always patrol in pairs. I wonder if that also encourages a very overwhelming, quick-trigger response. Serious answer: The cops are all trained in hair trigger response. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-gun-shooting-training-ferguson/383681/ quote:Officers aren’t just told about the risks they face. They are shown painfully vivid, heart-wrenching dash-cam footage of officers being beaten, disarmed, or gunned down after a moment of inattention or hesitation. They are told that the primary culprit isn’t the felon on the video, it is the officer’s lack of vigilance. And as they listen to the fallen officer’s last, desperate radio calls for help, every cop in the room is thinking exactly the same thing: “I won’t ever let that happen to me.” That’s the point of the training. Instead of de-escalation or CIT training, American cops are trained to respond with violence pre-emptively.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:20
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SulphagneSocialist posted:One thing that's always struck me is that US police officers seem to patrol a lot on their own. Finnish police officers, at least, always patrol in pairs. I wonder if that also encourages a very overwhelming, quick-trigger response. It's almost like tiny European countries have large geographic and demographic differences from the US
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Sep 18, 2017 13:20
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Give me a reason why a cop patrolling in Charleston can be alone but a cop in similar sized Insert EU town can't. Making a cop patrol alone is unfair to him, his encounters, and the public overall.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:26
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St Louis county just passed a tax increase partly to reduce single-officer patrolling.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:30
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Vahakyla posted:Give me a reason why a cop patrolling in Charleston can be alone but a cop in similar sized Insert EU town can't. No see, the demographics are all different in Europe literally every time I've heard this argument made in real life, the next sentence was about how they don't have black people there anyway real answer: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-United-States-work-alone It seems to be mostly a budget thing.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:32
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nwo hatchet man posted:It's almost like tiny European countries have large geographic and demographic differences from the US The US is so special that things that work everywhere else in the developed world simply can't work there See also: healthcare, education, proportional representation,
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Sep 18, 2017 13:32
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That tax increase is a legit good thing that won't fix the issue of bad policing, but it will alleviate it. It's also better for employees.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:33
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nwo hatchet man posted:It's almost like tiny European countries have large geographic and demographic differences from the US and what would those "demographic differences" be? 
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Sep 18, 2017 13:47
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Quorum posted:
The UK parliament at Westminster is west of the meridian at Greenwich and so technically in the Western hemisphere. Probably Iceland too but I can't be bothered to look it up. 
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Sep 18, 2017 13:48
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If europe lacks black people, why do the cops ride in pairs in all the white paradises, and alone on in the US "inner cities"? Logic flawed, please explain.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:48
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If I had to guess I would suggest Europeans have less suburban sprawl and thus more money to spend on police instead of highways to nowhere.
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Sep 18, 2017 13:51
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Happy Monday! Let's all have weeks that don't suck! https://twitter.com/shujaxhaider/status/909437023458615296 https://twitter.com/peterwsinger/status/909769507882848257 https://twitter.com/peterwsinger/status/909770879424397312 Almost 9 hours before deciding that this week needs to gently caress off already. That may be a record for me.
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Sep 18, 2017 14:42
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Unkempt posted:The UK parliament at Westminster is west of the meridian at Greenwich and so technically in the Western hemisphere. Probably Iceland too but I can't be bothered to look it up. You are technically correct, and I award ten points to House Goon.
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Sep 18, 2017 15:05
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Quorum posted:You are technically correct, and I award ten points to House Goon. technically correct is the best kind of correct on the internet
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