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ProfessorProf posted:"There are five master keys, one held by each servant" There's no reason that statement means that it has to be at all times, just at the time it's given. ProfessorProf posted:Why does Beato keep killing after Eva finds the Epitaph? ProfessorProf posted:What the hell is going on ProfessorProf posted:Erika's Detective Viewpoint ProfessorProf posted:The Contradictory Final Truths ProfessorProf posted:Natsuhi and the Servants  "The head and my husband will return very soon. Has the study's cleaning been completed? Has the staircase's cleaning been completed?" "M, my apologies... Not yet..." "Yes, I know. So I had Runon do it. While you were plodding around, cleaning the hallway, she finished cleaning the study and the staircase."Certainly, she doesn't pay that much attention to the servants, but she pays enough attention that you'd think she'd notice someone not being in two places at once. She's certainly alert enough there that she can tell Shannon wasn't in the study or at the staircase. ProfessorProf posted:Jessica and the Servants ProfessorProf posted:And then... my memories of Jessica. Granted, it's difficult to measure the amount of contact she had, but.. George and Shannon is much more measurable. ProfessorProf posted:George=Kannon? When he's supposed to be at school, he instead pops off to Rokkenjima as "Kanon". Bribery of teachers may be involved to keep reports looking good to Eva, with Hideyoshi possibly knowing about it. ProfessorProf posted:Regarding Furniture I have a possible theory regarding ep 8, but it may rely on information I gleaned from the old thread (I can't remember where I picked up a certain piece of information), so I'll dump it in spoiler tags to be safe. The information I refer to is the fact that there is exactly one choice in Umineko, and that's at the end of episode 8. So my guess is that the choice is to either accept or deny Bern's ep 7 red regarding a 'happy ending', with a different ending based on the result. From the information that ep 8 is divisive, the possibility that red truth can be directly rejected would certainly be a divisive point. tiistai posted:Dude they were practically flirting the moment they first saw each other Even after episode 2's ending? All the sections that caused Battler to get soft were in episode 3. Now certainly, Yasu stopping Battler from getting away with just acknowledging 'witches' is due to that, but I'm not sure if that's the whole cause of NWATS being played. Ytlaya posted:Regarding Episode 3, it makes the most sense to me that Eva simply solved the epitaph without Yasu noticing. Yasu puts the bank number code on the door later as an "apology" of sorts for continuing the murders without noticing it had already been solved (and thus breaks her own rules). I can't think of any "things went according to Yasu's plan" explanation for Episode 3 where painting the bank code makes any sense. Didn't Nanjo die after George (and the bank number code), though? This is the explanation I favour, but it too has some holes.
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Sep 18, 2017 23:37
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Ytlaya posted:One thing that I've always been curious about is exactly what motivated Jessica's reaction to seeing Kanon and Battler's meeting in EP1. It's possible to speculate that either 1. Jessica noticed Kanon was obvously attracted to Battler and realized "oh poo poo I don't have a chance do I" quote:
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Jessica might have reasons to worry imo.
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Sep 18, 2017 23:38
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"...He's nowhere!! Could the culprit have taken him out of the room?! Then we have to search for him quickly and save him! If we're slow, something awful might happen!! Aunt Rosa, let's search all over the mansion! Let's search for the culprit! Let's save Kanon-kun!!"
"...Even though the games are different, I'm taking a shot back at you with this move, as a tribute to Kanon-kun for that time."
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Erika is actually very unobservant - the point is that she relies exclusively on red truth and her detective authority rather than her actual eyes or what the story is trying to say. When she calls everyone into the room at the end of episode 5 she sees no need to do a headcount because she knows her authority forces everyone to be there. Similarly in Episode 6 she gets a red truth that puts "everyone else" in a single room, meaning again she sees no need to actually verify who's present because it's not like anyone can be missing.
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Sep 19, 2017 00:05
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Regarding Erika, it's important to keep in mind that she does not like changing her theories. Once she decided to pursue Natsuhi as the culprit, she selectively just used information pointing towards that solution. An important example of another time she does this is regarding Kinzo being alive. Erika knows Kinzo is actually dead, but she still acts like he's alive because it's convenient to her theory. Basically, Erika wasn't seeking the truth; she was seeking a truth that had Natsuhi as the culprit. (The manga actually explicitly explains what went on here, but I don't know if it's okay to mention that content.) Cyouni posted:Didn't Nanjo die after George (and the bank number code), though? This is the explanation I favour, but it too has some holes. Yes, though in that case 1. the bomb was about to go off anyways and IIRC she wanted to be alone with Jessica or whatever and 2. she has a particular reason to dislike Nanjo, given he's the one responsible for the surgery and is generally kinda a terrible person who does all this unethical stuff for cash. In a more meta-sense, it was just so there would be an example of a murder that definitely couldn't have been committed by Eva and would basically force the reader to question what exactly "people" mean in the context of the red text. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Sep 19, 2017 |
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Sep 19, 2017 00:07
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Cyouni posted:
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Sep 19, 2017 00:13
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Cyouni posted:Certainly, she doesn't pay that much attention to the servants, but she pays enough attention that you'd think she'd notice someone not being in two places at once. She's certainly alert enough there that she can tell Shannon wasn't in the study or at the staircase. Kanon even complans that Runon only cleans the places that Natsuhi checks so clearly everyone knows just how limited her alertness is. She's not constantly micromanaging the servants and there's no reason for Shannon and Kanon to work the same shifts except under special circumstances. Like planned murder.
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Sep 19, 2017 00:19
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Was Runon the one who got pushed down the stairs for poo poo-talking Beatrice?
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Sep 19, 2017 00:27
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ZiegeDame posted:Was Runon the one who got pushed down the stairs for poo poo-talking Beatrice? No Runon is the servant who Lucifer of Pride was based off of.
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Sep 19, 2017 00:28
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Ytlaya posted:While being DFAB with a body that can't get pregnant or have sex for some reason (it's a bit harder to conceptualize what sort of injury would cause this than it is in the DMAB case) would certainly be a reason for its own trauma, it wouldn't really explain the level of fear/disgust she has towards the idea of exposing herself to others (which is basically covered in EP2). Honestly, when I read that line, I immediately thought of Hedwig.  ProfessorProf posted:Shannon's Death One of her better ones, too. Let's Play Umineko: Yasu's Agatha Christie Fanfiction ProfessorProf posted:Why does Beato keep killing after Eva finds the Epitaph? I think the theory of them just not knowing the gold had been found right away is more likely. Eva keeps it to herself (via murder), so Yasu wouldn't necessarily find out until they went down there to check and discovered things moved around, or Eva mentioned it, or whatever. ProfessorProf posted:EPISODE 5 The overall motive seems to be "gently caress Natsuhi", and it's kind of hard to blame Yasu for that. It might also be related to the fact that Battler rejects the position of the family head. ProfessorProf posted:EPISODE 6 I won't argue with the authorial reasoning, which is probably sound, but I think the idea is that both sides are bound by the same rules here - the murder and the rescue and anything else still have to be possible in a real-world setting. Dlanor can try to deceive people about what's true, but she can't modify it. It's also a bit of a poke at how the roles have gotten a bit mixed up since we switched to the "answer" arc; things stopped being a straightforward witch vs. human grudge-match around then and the confusion of who is using what color truth reflects that. ProfessorProf posted:"Kinzo got off way too easy with his death scene" This is certainly how I read it. He's saying "my work in this life is done", and then he expires. He's not saying everything is peachy now. He even says how he's going to do the rest of his penance in hell. Kinzo may be crazy, but he understands what he did at this point. ProfessorProf posted:You need to understand that we've been playing this game at the strongest possible pace for solving it. A day of discussion time between every scene, full access to the backlog of the game, and multiple people all on the same page discussing and analyzing each update. When you're playing it on your own, and just blasting through scenes, it's much harder to pick up on its hints. Sometimes, the solution the game is telling you is the solution during the 'this is the solution' chapter really is the solution. I want to emphasize this point. I've read (or otherwise consumed) a lot of mysteries (uh, I guess that's obvious by this point). Usually, if the story is any good, you're hurtling through them way too fast to do this kind of detailed analysis before the end. I don't know of anyone who stops every twenty pages to annotate the clues with their friends to figure out who did it, but that's exactly what we've been doing here. It's a huge advantage. Cyouni posted:I have a possible theory regarding ep 8, but it may rely on information I gleaned from the old thread (I can't remember where I picked up a certain piece of information), so I'll dump it in spoiler tags to be safe. I remember that same tidbit from the first thread, and have been keeping it in my mind this whole time. My theory is that the choice is simply going to be "does magic exist"? In fact, I have trouble imagining it being anything else.
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Sep 19, 2017 00:41
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I don't think it was ever clarified who it was who got pushed down the stairs. Although that's assuming that accident actually ever happened. It could have just been gossip that Yasu started. Jessica didn't mention the incident during her VIP room ghost story despite talking a lot about Beatrice-related rumors and off the top of my head I can't remember her or anyone else besides the servants mentioning it.
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Sep 19, 2017 00:45
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Erika is actually very unobservant - the point is that she relies exclusively on red truth and her detective authority rather than her actual eyes or what the story is trying to say. When she calls everyone into the room at the end of episode 5 she sees no need to do a headcount because she knows her authority forces everyone to be there. Similarly in Episode 6 she gets a red truth that puts "everyone else" in a single room, meaning again she sees no need to actually verify who's present because it's not like anyone can be missing. The wall-spider and her actual ability to do that suggests otherwise. As well, she specifically went out to fetch Natsuhi in episode 5, so clearly it doesn't force everyone to be there. The adjacent room in episode 6 doesn't really matter, since that's the room that Kanon disappears from. I'd find it really hard to believe that someone who could actively notice everything from her episode 6 backstory would be so utterly blind as to not notice there was a physical person missing. tiistai posted:Kanon even complans that Runon only cleans the places that Natsuhi checks so clearly everyone knows just how limited her alertness is. She's not constantly micromanaging the servants and there's no reason for Shannon and Kanon to work the same shifts except under special circumstances. Like planned murder. Irony Be My Shield posted:Remember that Genji had control of the rota. I believe he just avoided making them work at the same time up until the 1986 conference. Don't forget the 1985 conference. I'm discounting the section in episode 2 since no one actually mentions both of them there. There may be other instances that I'm forgetting. idonotlikepeas posted:I want to emphasize this point. I've read (or otherwise consumed) a lot of mysteries (uh, I guess that's obvious by this point). Usually, if the story is any good, you're hurtling through them way too fast to do this kind of detailed analysis before the end. I don't know of anyone who stops every twenty pages to annotate the clues with their friends to figure out who did it, but that's exactly what we've been doing here. It's a huge advantage. idonotlikepeas posted:I remember that same tidbit from the first thread, and have been keeping it in my mind this whole time. My theory is that the choice is simply going to be "does magic exist"? In fact, I have trouble imagining it being anything else. Quite possible. Definitely something to keep in mind going in. Ytlaya posted:Yes, though in that case 1. the bomb was about to go off anyways and IIRC she wanted to be alone with Jessica or whatever and 2. she has a particular reason to dislike Nanjo, given he's the one responsible for the surgery and is generally kinda a terrible person who does all this unethical stuff for cash. That seems to defeat the whole "no more people will die" section of Beatrice's promise if she then goes off and kills Nanjo.
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Sep 19, 2017 01:37
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Cyouni posted:That seems to defeat the whole "no more people will die" section of Beatrice's promise if she then goes off and kills Nanjo. ProfessorProf posted:Also: gently caress Nanjo, he had it coming. It can not be understated how much Nanjo had it coming.
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Sep 19, 2017 01:46
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Dr Pepper posted:It can not be understated how much Nanjo had it coming. It's one thing to be Kinzo. It's another thing entirely to look at Kinzo, nod, and say "this is an acceptable and appropriate way to act and you should really look at it from his point of view". Nanjo did the latter at every single point in the backstory.
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Sep 19, 2017 02:06
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KataraniSword posted:It's one thing to be Kinzo. It's another thing entirely to look at Kinzo, nod, and say "this is an acceptable and appropriate way to act and you should really look at it from his point of view". Nanjo did the latter at every single point in the backstory. Nanjo: Kinzo maybe you should stop poisoning the lives of everyone in your life Kinzo: Oops, a solid gold ingot just fell out of my pocket Nanjo: In the end, there was nothing we could do to help her
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Sep 19, 2017 02:07
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Look LOOK look okay let's talk about 'ships. Hear me out: Mine is small bombs x mackerel
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Sep 19, 2017 02:16
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Cyouni posted:The wall-spider and her actual ability to do that suggests otherwise.
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Sep 19, 2017 02:17
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Look LOOK look okay let's talk about 'ships. Hear me out: The NieR: Automata thread is a few pages over. 
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Sep 19, 2017 02:29
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^^^ gently caress, beatenPOOL IS CLOSED posted:Look LOOK look okay let's talk about 'ships. Hear me out: Goat-kun x Ronove
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Sep 19, 2017 02:33
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KataraniSword posted:The NieR: Automata thread is a few pages over. Those were pretty big bombs! And my first ending.  ZiegeDame posted:^^^ gently caress, beaten 🌶
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Sep 19, 2017 02:35
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Cyouni posted:I'd find it really hard to believe that someone who could actively notice everything from her episode 6 backstory would be so utterly blind as to not notice there was a physical person missing. I don't really think the point of her backstory in EP6 was supposed to highlight her exceptional powers of observance; she super clearly decided her partner was cheating and then fit all of her observances into that schema. She's consantly searching for a "truth" that fits into her preconceived notions, and she's far too full of herself to reexamine said conceptions. In both episodes she has appeared in, she came in with a clear and obvious mission and then singlemindedly pursued her goals, so why should it be so hard to believe she would get fooled so badly? R07 referred to this whole thing as a "mean trick" (or "nasty," I forget), and it is one. It requires the reader to really understand the rules of the viewpoint character and the "detective," rules that are explained in a somewhat vague way in Chiru. I tend to think it has utility as a teaching moment, helping to unlock elements of perspective fuckery from the first four episodes. But imo, the least "mean" part of the trick is having Erika be the one who makes the mistake, because she's exactly the sort of person who would fall for it. Twice. By Lambda and Battler.
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Sep 19, 2017 02:44
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ProfessorProf posted:Nanjo: Kinzo maybe you should stop poisoning the lives of everyone in your life Look, he needed the money, he had a sick granddaughter about 10 years later
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Sep 19, 2017 02:44
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Turns out some people's integrity is worth gold ingots. 
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Sep 19, 2017 02:47
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In retrospect, Erika-as-detective violates what might be the biggest rule of a mystery, that by the end the detective will solve the mystery and reveal it to the reader. We're told explicitly in EP 5 that her solution is wrong. People more familiar with the genre: are there any famous (or obscure) murder mystery novels out there where the detective fails to solve the crime and no answer is ever given?
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Sep 19, 2017 03:02
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Her solution was wrong because she wasn't out to solve anything, just get a fix set up.
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Sep 19, 2017 03:05
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Which means she isn't a Detective by any genre convention where that means anything.
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Sep 19, 2017 03:11
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You may have noticed that there's only one "detective" in 7 episodes that the story really praises, yes.
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Sep 19, 2017 03:26
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Poor Erika, thought of ambiguity and died.
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Sep 19, 2017 04:00
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PetraCore posted:Poor Erika, thought of ambiguity and died. I'm not sorry she's dead. I'm also gonna call it here: The story isn't happy because it ends up feeling unearned, probably Battler and Yasu come back together and everyone probably doesn't blow the gently caress up. And Battler becomes the new head or something. I'm 100% sure Maria is still going to be abused or dead after the events of this story. Her life is miserable and there's nothing anyone can/will do about it.
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Sep 19, 2017 04:05
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bman in 2288 posted:I'm 100% sure Maria is still going to be abused or dead after the events of this story. Well yeah, she's actually the only person who's conclusively confirmed as dead because her jaw was found.
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Sep 19, 2017 04:59
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In the beginning of the story, I used to ship Battler/getting owned, but now I'm more aboard Erika/existing. Erika was terrible, but still what a way to go...tiistai posted:Well yeah, she's actually the only person who's conclusively confirmed as dead because her jaw was found. God drat it...
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Sep 19, 2017 05:19
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tiistai posted:Well yeah, she's actually the only person who's conclusively confirmed as dead because her jaw was found. Maria's dead of explosion (and possibly other stuff) and Eva is dead of old age/wasting disease/sheer bitterness.
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Sep 19, 2017 05:51
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After a particularly brutal rampage from Rosa, Dr. Nanjo is forced to perform an untested jaw replacement surgery. Fortunately, Knizo had a collection of fiberglass replicas made of the skulls of all his descendants.
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Sep 19, 2017 05:52
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ZiegeDame posted:After a particularly brutal rampage from Rosa, Dr. Nanjo is forced to perform an untested jaw replacement surgery. Fortunately, Knizo had a collection of fiberglass replicas made of the skulls of all his descendants. Clearly Maria's new jawbone is made of gold (alloy).
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Sep 19, 2017 05:56
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Huh. With the prosthetic jawbone surgery, the Witch Maria will be able to use her own jawbone as a wand. 
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Sep 19, 2017 06:01
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ZiegeDame posted:After a particularly brutal rampage from Rosa, Dr. Nanjo is forced to perform an untested jaw replacement surgery. Fortunately, Knizo had a collection of fiberglass replicas made of the skulls of all his descendants. You say this like Kinzo would bother with something like a replica.
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Sep 19, 2017 06:07
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Huh. With the prosthetic jawbone surgery, the Witch Maria will be able to use her own jawbone as a wand. Her bark is worse than her bite! 
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Sep 19, 2017 06:28
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Dr Pepper posted:You say this like Kinzo would bother with something like a replica. "I wouldn't put it past Father. "
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Sep 19, 2017 09:13
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tiistai posted:Dude they were practically flirting the moment they first saw each other And? Do you wish to actually have sex with everyone you flirt with, or who flirts with you? My impression of the "flirting" bit is that it's Battler's attempt to keep things within a realm that he can get... and to suppress his visceral horror at the hell of his family dying over and over again and the only guide he has is this cackling monstrosity that purposefully puts him in increasingly desperate emotional states. And while it is nice to think that the Big Twist in EP3 is just a particularly extreme way of pushing Battler back into seeing the truth... well, for one thing, Battler didn't need to be pushed, he was still absolutely gunning for the truth even at the beginning until Beato decided to add the extra wrinkle herself. The point of the North Wind and the Sun strategy was to give him another sort of clue and to punish him for being so easily led down a path because it confirmed his biases... but there is really something darker here that we can't ignore. Yasu wants to be known, yes, more than anything else, and it would be nice if Battler was the one who knew them... but they also want to die. We've had hints the entire story long about the pressures put on them by the double lives they lead and the terrible knowledge forced upon them, and that struggle eventually broke them; Ziege seems to be under the impression that they just passively left it up to fate by utilizing Kinzo's literal loving doomsday clock, but that's not Yasu being passive- that's Yasu wanting to destroy this island and the things that happened here so completely-themselves included- that the only way to survive is to divest yourself of the Ushiromiya legacy completely. Everyone in this family is broken and horrible to some degree, but they all had a chance to redeem themselves so Yasu has no problem with granting them that chance... but they also aren't shy about murdering them, either, and think about the weight that adds to a person's conscience. They all contributed to Yasu's prison in some way, through denial, neglect, or personal abuse, but they were still the only people Yasu knew, and she knew that her scenario would have most of them, perhaps all of them, end up dead. Think about the weight that places on a conscience, to kill someone who you knew cared for you, even if they are abusive- much has been made of how innocent the cousins are, when compared to the adults, but after the first scenario, they all were killed at least once, even a 9 year old girl. A 9 year old girl, one who loved and respected you above all others. A murder mystery with as many murders as this might be academically a fascinating and inspiring achievement, but in practice, it's a bloody act that would crush a mind. So Yasu... never intended to leave, even after Battler realized the truth. Her perfect scenario was Battler realizing the truth, executing her for her sins, and then leaving the island and the family's legacy forever. This is not some wholesome love story... it is Medusa attempting to create her own, personal Perseus. And failing.
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Sep 19, 2017 15:13
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e: Whoa hey, nobody wants to hear about that Ziege. Dial it back.
ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Sep 19, 2017 |
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Sep 19, 2017 16:37
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I have more muddled notions of "deserving." On the one hand, I don't believe anyone who commits mass murder deserves a happy ending. That's something the justice system would typically avenge with an execution or extremely unpleasant and long prison stay, potentially punctuated by a brief period of freedom at the end of the perpetrator's life in which society at large essentially shuns them. On the other hand, "deserving" is poisonous. We use it as a way to justify suffering and privation by saying others haven't earned basic considerations. When we think of deserving, what about not being subjected to childhood abuse and neglect, among other things? "Deserving" is a notion more often used to torment than reward. It's an excellent way to otherize: that person deserves suffering, unlike me and the people I like and respect.
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Sep 19, 2017 17:08
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