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yeah, the thing about universal basic income is that everybody gets it without any bullshit means testing or make-work fuckery. if all someone has known is lovely loving jobs, I don't blame them for not wanting to do another lovely job just to prove they deserve to eat. trust me, they'll get bored with doing nothing and find their bag easily enough. "but that person doing [thing] isn't actually working," a bad dem may exclaim, and my response to that is so loving what? you'd be getting the same amount as them and anybody who wants to work to get extra should be able to. those who cannot or do not still deserve the dignity of a life without want.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:24
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UBI or other systems that mainly act as a redistribution mechanism for great inequities are flawed except as a temporary stopgap patch. a better solution is to create an economic system that distributes more fairly in the first place
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Sep 19, 2017 19:29
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comedyblissoption posted:UBI or other systems that mainly act as a redistribution mechanism for great inequities are flawed except as a temporary stopgap patch. a better solution is to create an economic system that distributes more fairly in the first place the better solution is to eliminate the coupling between employment and survival namaste
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Sep 19, 2017 19:33
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someone extracting wealth without using their own labor to help collectively generate that wealth is fundamentally unjust. this is why capitalists extracting economic rents is so grotesquely unfair. this same criticism should also apply to a system that may enable someone able-minded to extract UBI payments without contributing back. my criticism is grounded in a view that we should move away from an undemocratic employee-employer relationship.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:36
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:killing time mostly. Facebook has much better leftists, as opposed to liberals who pretend calling themselves progressive means anything shrike82 posted:lmao, he's so weird.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:39
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Jazerus posted:honestly i would feel far more demeaned doing pointless makework for my ubi than just, y'know, receiving it and channeling my productivity toward something better this is the entire point behind the current welfare system as it is they try to discourage people from sitting on it by making it feel vaguely demeaning, to get people to instead suck down 7.25 a hour for their corporate masters
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Sep 19, 2017 19:40
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comedyblissoption posted:someone extracting wealth without using their own labor to help collectively generate that wealth is fundamentally unjust. this is why capitalists extracting economic rents is so grotesquely unfair. this same criticism should also apply to a system that may enable someone able-minded to extract UBI payments without contributing back. Contributing has nothing to do with it. You should not be required to work to live
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Sep 19, 2017 19:42
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comedyblissoption posted:this same criticism should also apply to a system that may enable someone able-minded to extract UBI payments without contributing back. god drat ubi queens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sep 19, 2017 19:43
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except there are actual studies where giving people money doesn't mean fewer people working, but rather people being able to be more productive while leading meaningful lives complaining about people who gets to extract $x while not working buys into the fallacy that those who hoard wealth earned it.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:44
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it always comes down to some guy deciding that housework isnt socially necessary labor
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Sep 19, 2017 19:44
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comedyblissoption posted:someone extracting wealth without using their own labor to help collectively generate that wealth is fundamentally unjust. this is why capitalists extracting economic rents is so grotesquely unfair. this same criticism should also apply to a system that may enable someone able-minded to extract UBI payments without contributing back. it really isn't unjust, when we have so much wealth and so much automation (with more on the way, and much more possible if we dedicated resources to automating as a society) that a significant proportion of the population is more or less economically valueless. this is not a criticism of them; a worker whose career is automated away is economically valueless unless they find other work but not without value as a person, obviously. but full employment is a dumb, backwards-looking goal when everything about our society's technological trajectory is pulling us the other way the economy should not be our master, not even a democratic socialist economy
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Sep 19, 2017 19:45
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ubi is just a stepping stone to fully automated luxury gay space communism
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Sep 19, 2017 19:48
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the biggest and reasonable criticism of UBI is that different people have wildly different needs depending on locality, health, ability, etc. so actually designing a UBI system that truly takes care of people's survival needs is an incredibly difficult to hit moving target (ha ha just kidding, all you would need is to hire enough case workers to handle a full load)
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Sep 19, 2017 19:48
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besides you'll still get loads of people who want to work to live above the baseline and have lots of stuff, even if the baseline is very comfortable at least until the psychological effects of capitalism fade but that will probably take a few generations at the least
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Sep 19, 2017 19:52
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Venom Snake posted:Contributing has nothing to do with it. You should not be required to work to live Jazerus posted:it really isn't unjust, when we have so much wealth and so much automation (with more on the way, and much more possible if we dedicated resources to automating as a society) that a significant proportion of the population is more or less economically valueless. this is not a criticism of them; a worker whose career is automated away is economically valueless unless they find other work but not without value as a person, obviously. but full employment is a dumb, backwards-looking goal when everything about our society's technological trajectory is pulling us the other way a better solution is employing the able-minded and cutting the work week. you dont cause fundamental differences between the labor and idle, and the idle do not become helpless and are more economically empowered. ideally this system is combined with workers collectively making democratic decisions at the business (i.e. in a co-op) without the traditional corporate undemocratic structure.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:55
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comedyblissoption posted:someone somewhere is required to work so that they and others may live. if nobody works, then there is no wealth. for how much longer do you think this will be true
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Sep 19, 2017 19:58
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comedyblissoption posted:someone somewhere is required to work so that they and others may live. if nobody works, then there is no wealth. all people should be able to phase in and out of the economy as they please. nobody would be just "the labor" or "the idle", people would be both as they desired. if labor needs to be done then offer enough money that someone will want to do it. it's a fundamentally different mindset toward the purpose of the economy so i understand if it seems weird, but it's not unjust.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:58
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my biggest issue with ubi is that lovely landlords wouod hike their rents by however much the ubi is
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Sep 19, 2017 20:01
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Jazerus posted:besides you'll still get loads of people who want to work to live above the baseline and have lots of stuff, even if the baseline is very comfortable if my basic material needs were met i would probably work 40 hours a week working on artwork as opposed to 10 hours a week + 30 hours shirking but still being too tired at the end of the day most days to do what im actually skilled at.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:03
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Agean90 posted:my biggest issue with ubi is that lovely landlords wouod hike their rents by however much the ubi is this is a huge problem, yeah. it'd be like gentrification on kerosene
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Sep 19, 2017 20:04
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Agean90 posted:my biggest issue with ubi is that lovely landlords wouod hike their rents by however much the ubi is nationalize the landlords
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Sep 19, 2017 20:04
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Serf posted:nationalize the landlords Execute the landlords, nationalize their lands i mean my landlord is alright but god will sort them out.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:06
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Agean90 posted:Execute the landlords, nationalize their lands this is exactly what i mean. put those lands under the control of the people who actually live there and let them manage it
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Sep 19, 2017 20:07
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i find it unlikely that every job can be performed by a robot
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Sep 19, 2017 20:09
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Jazerus posted:all people should be able to phase in and out of the economy as they please. nobody would be just "the labor" or "the idle", people would be both as they desired. if labor needs to be done then offer enough money that someone will want to do it.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:10
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unless by robot u mean slave
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Sep 19, 2017 20:10
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comedyblissoption posted:the GDP per capita of the US is $57k. how big should the UBI be? bigger than that
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Sep 19, 2017 20:11
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Serf posted:bigger than that 
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Sep 19, 2017 20:12
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i will accept that maybe we could live in our lifetimes in a post-scarcity society where great amounts of wealth is generated by trivial amounts of labor, but we do not live there yet. capitalism is way too inefficient an economic system and puts great masses of laborers in absolutely bullshit low-value jobs.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:16
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deadgoon posted:i find it unlikely that every job can be performed by a robot Robots doing every job thread is here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3800017 Once the self driving vehicles technology passes muster that will be literally millions of jobs that can be eliminated
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Sep 19, 2017 20:17
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Sorry but ubi will never come to pass because America is a nation of snakes.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:18
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condemn the Facebook liker to the spooky ghost thread or the Trump thread, he's gettin' too soft in the suck zone
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Sep 19, 2017 20:19
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comedyblissoption posted:i will accept that maybe we could live in our lifetimes in a post-scarcity society where great amounts of wealth is generated by trivial amounts of labor, but we do not live there yet. capitalism is way too inefficient an economic system and puts great masses of laborers in absolutely bullshit low-value jobs. *leans over, squinting into the mess of tangled wires and parts at the weird gizmo labeled "capitalism" and nods sagely" ayup, found your problem right here
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Sep 19, 2017 20:21
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Rastor posted:Robots doing every job thread is here: when will we have robots that can replace the labor performed by prisoners and undocumented immigrants/migrants
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Sep 19, 2017 20:25
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comedyblissoption posted:i will accept that maybe we could live in our lifetimes in a post-scarcity society where great amounts of wealth is generated by trivial amounts of labor, but we do not live there yet. capitalism is way too inefficient an economic system and puts great masses of laborers in absolutely bullshit low-value jobs. i have no objections to a full employment/reduced work week scheme right this very second. it's a good idea. but it's the stopgap, rather than ubi being the stopgap. public works that paid pretty well and guaranteed a job to all would definitely eliminate the bullshit low-value private sector jobs that can be automated away though, if the public works program lasted long enough, and then you have to start thinking about how you're going to go forward from there. also i honestly have no idea what the desirable $ figure for ubi would be at this time. i'm hesitant to index it to any kind of regional variation in cost of living because marginal value is still a thing and you wouldn't want, e.g. people flooding new york to live there for a while on ubi and then go home to ruralville where the portion of their ubi that they managed to save is worth far more than that of the folks who just stayed in ruralville. so yeah that's a question i'm not really qualified to answer.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:26
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me, under capitalism: robots are bad me, under communism: robots are good
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Sep 19, 2017 20:26
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here's enough UBI to support whatever u think the ethical baseline should be from this position of economic security, how many of u want to supplement ur income by taking a job picking crops or on the line at the iphone factory come on, raise ur hands
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Sep 19, 2017 20:29
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at some point, and this is a crazy thought here, there won't be a necessity for the iphone in a post-scarcity society. the freedom to truly disconnect from information overload and 24/7 accessibility to yourself at all times will no longer be a mandate of the quote en quote "free" market until then 
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Sep 19, 2017 20:32
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deadgoon posted:here's enough UBI to support whatever u think the ethical baseline should be i'd be willing to pick crops for a bit if i wanted stuff above baseline if it were a reasonable job and not a capitalist exploitational nightmare like picking crops is today turns out that lots of lovely jobs could be made at least semi-attractive if we stopped worshiping productivity and wringing every ounce of labor out of workers while ignoring safety and health for the sake of profit
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Sep 19, 2017 20:32
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deadgoon posted:when will we have robots that can replace the labor performed by prisoners and undocumented immigrants/migrants a better question is when will capitalism invent a robot that's cheaper than a slave
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Sep 19, 2017 20:33
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