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Taerkar posted:No war but class war. Dogtax- guess which dog is ancient! 
Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 22:55
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Phi230 posted:to fear that leftist policy may be implemented with racism in this day and age is to think leftists are racist, or willing to compromise with racists which couldn't be farther from the truth Leftists can absolutely be racist. They shouldn't be, but white people. Of course you'll never get them to admit they're racist because I Am A Leftist I Can't Be Racist.
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Sep 21, 2017 22:55
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Graham is very charming and likable. You know, like Satan. I'm guessing their plan is to get soundbites of Sanders and Klobuchar critcizing aspects of Obamacare, therefore EVEN Democrats think it's garbage.
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Sep 21, 2017 22:56
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Taerkar posted:In order to pull that off in the media Bernie needs to be as calm as possible and keep the potential sound bites to a minimum. he's come out ahead in all the other town halls repubs tried to do against him so i'm not worried about that Jaxyon posted:It doesn't matter, people come out of the debate thinking their guy won. Facts are the least important thing in debate politics. disagreed dunno why you're so pessimistic about this, especially wrt a subject america cares deeply about (healthcare) they do not like what the republicans are trying to do, and only a small crazy percentage is going to react well to their "lets kill everyone" bill Trabisnikof posted:Some strong arguments in favor of debating Nazis over their desire to "kill people via legislation" but that's not how the tone of this discussion usually goes. you don't debate nazis, you punch them. unfortunately, if these shitheads are nazis they are also senators and punching them is not feasible as opposed to a guy wearing a swastika armband. so i'll gladly take a verbal beatdown of these two shitheads instead 
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Sep 21, 2017 22:56
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Condiv posted:disagreed Everyone already hates the healthcare bill, the only thing they have to gain by agreeing to this is to trash Bernie and promote themselves. Political debates are about ego, not reality.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:02
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Jaxyon posted:Everyone already hates the healthcare bill, the only thing they have to gain by agreeing to this is to trash Bernie and promote themselves. people can get angrier than they are now. dunno why you're pretending that people are at maximum hate level for this bill. a nice debate with graham and cassidy being out of touch assholes talking about how much they want to kill people will be helpful in energizing people against the bill even more than they are now
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Sep 21, 2017 23:05
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Condiv posted:people can get angrier than they are now. dunno why you're pretending that people are at maximum hate level for this bill. a nice debate with graham and cassidy being out of touch assholes talking about how much they want to kill people will be helpful in energizing people against the bill even more than they are now Graham is really smooth though.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:09
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Ague Proof posted:Graham is really smooth though. not smooth enough to sell this bullshit he's also one of the senators most hated by his own constituency https://morningconsult.com/senate-rankings-april-2017/ he's right under old turtleface and poo poo brain mccain in most unpopular senators
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Sep 21, 2017 23:14
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Majorian posted:Yeah, that's a shame. I had a lot of respect for her, but holy moly... https://twitter.com/ValeriePlame/status/550287266350764033 https://twitter.com/ValeriePlame/status/673511252144992256 been openly antisemitic for years
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Sep 21, 2017 23:16
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Your Parents posted:https://twitter.com/ValeriePlame/status/550287266350764033 I guess Cheney wasn't wrong to blow her cover then
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Sep 21, 2017 23:19
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Ague Proof posted:Graham is really smooth though. You overestimate Graham. He has that oily salesman schtick, but it doesn't require a great deal for the charade to break. And when it breaks, it breaks hard.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:20
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leftists can be racists most modern american leftists are avowedly anti-racist tho, unless you're including tankies for some reason
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Sep 21, 2017 23:25
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Your Parents posted:https://twitter.com/ValeriePlame/status/673511252144992256 wow, in 2015 she'd never heard this propaganda story that conspiracy theorists made up and started throwing around by September 12th '01 at the latest that's kinda weird
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Sep 21, 2017 23:25
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RuanGacho posted:This actually sounds fascinating and I'd like to do more of it. I was looking for some good online texts on this, but sadly most of it is still offline or a bunch of theory online. Also my search terms may be off because I'm too lazy to go look find my textbooks. There are lots of methods to develop social systems and a number of them start from perfection rather than reality. One method I was trained, the specific name escapes me, is designed for improving social systems at a small group level, say a workplace or a family or even for an individual. So once you have something that you have both your existing leadership and stakeholders agree should change you can get everyone together in a room and use this process (roughly): Step 1: Everyone ad-hoc takes turns coming up with positive and personal statements about the perfect version of the system, e.g. "My perfect workplace is free from racism" these get written, often on post-it notes. No consideration of the possible at this point. Step 2: These notes get grouped together into ad-hoc groups as part of a facilitator guided open session. That's why you use post-its so you can physically move the notes around into clusters and intersections as desired. The idea is to find the clusters of desires that represent shared value concerns to the group. So depending on the group, the previous example of a workplace free from racism could fit in a group about making a "safe and comfortable workplace" or in a group about "checking our biases" or in a group about "increasing diversity" based on what are all those idealized desires. Still not thinking about what is possible at this point. But you end up with clusters that tell you a lot about the groups' motivations and values. Step 3: Ideate and envision ways that those specific clusters and their goals could be achieved, again without considering what would be actually possible. Depending on group size and the clusters themselves it might make sense to break up into small groups for a bit to help foster generative discourse. Continuing on my example, maybe a group decides "a way to increase diversity in our work place would be a perfectly objective hiring system." Step 4: Now we take those ideas for system elements and put them through the funnel of reality: how can we reshape these big ideas and change them into something that can fit through our requirements of reality? The above example might end up as "so that perfectly objective hiring system is impossible, but we can make our current system more objective by removing names and photos when we review resumes starting now and we can use a test-based first-round screener rather than our current resume based one once we implement it". The outcome, changing the hiring process, might have been a hard fight if someone just proposed it at a team meeting, but by placing it first within the context of values and motivations shared by the group it clarifies the position of importance the idea has to the group and the challenges associated with it are compared to the challenges of the shared value not the ease of maintaining the status quo. The group can't end racism but they can do this little bit to make it not worse. Ideally, there would be many such social system changes coming out of a session, this example being one of many the group would have dealt with all at once. These processes can get very messy and aren't the normal orderly meetings people are used to. These sessions fundamentally require individuals to put more of themselves on the line than ever before and it clearly shows the existing differences between motivations and values within the group, which is what can make the process really messy. But if everyone comes in with at least a grudging willingness to be open and honest, you can come to strong conclusions about how to be build a better social system for that group. Obviously techniques like these require full buy-in from leadership and participants. They're ineffective when the boss says "nah I don't like it" at the end or if you leave stakeholders out of the room. Often people want to use a process like this as a means to an end, when that's the opposite of the method's function. Likewise, these tools are intended as part of a learning organization, you can't just decide once and leave it at that. So generally far messier and less more values based than generally get used because the process is designed to not achieve the goals of leadership but instead finding a path to harmonizing the group's and individuals' values and motivations.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:31
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/PrestonCNN/status/910968062123368452 Evidently it's not making too many of hem angry since Amy Klobachar is joining him. Hope it goes well, should help keep the discussion going.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:49
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Condiv posted:people can get angrier than they are now. dunno why you're pretending that people are at maximum hate level for this bill. a nice debate with graham and cassidy being out of touch assholes talking about how much they want to kill people will be helpful in energizing people against the bill even more than they are now It's not going to do that. Literally buying TV time and simply having Bernie lecture would be more effective than a debate format. Jazerus posted:leftists can be racists That's why it's incredibly painful to explain to lefties when they're being racist(speaking as a leftist). It's driven PoC out of leftist circles over and over and over again. Whiteness transcends all.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:52
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Democrazy posted:Evidently it's not making too many of hem angry since Amy Klobachar is joining him. Hope it goes well, should help keep the discussion going. me too Jaxyon posted:It's not going to do that. i'm sure bernie would love to have tv time purchased for him to give a speech about better healthcare. but this is a great alternative for him and free publicity for singlepayer and free negative publicity for republican's deathcare bill so good going bernie!
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Sep 21, 2017 23:54
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Condiv posted:i'm sure bernie would love to have tv time purchased for him to give a speech about better healthcare. but this is a great alternative for him and free publicity for singlepayer and free negative publicity for republican's deathcare bill so good going bernie! Again, it won't accomplish that. At best, it will have you and me going "go Bernie you tell 'em" and conservatives being "see they shut down Bernie" and at worst Bernie fucks up a talking point or a delivery and it hurts him and strengthens a bill that shouldn't even be discussed in a serious manner. You can disagree with me but this is how debates have worked forever. Trump was possibly the worst debate ever put on television and millions of people used his debate performance to inform their vote for him.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:02
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Single payer is still the socialism boogeyman. Graham is gonna poke at Sanders enough to switch the debate from how bad his bill is Sanders espousing the wonders of single payer and Medicare for all or whatever he is championing. If you can distract the populace from observing anything negative about your bill, then you get, perhaps not the upper hand, but a leg in the race nonetheless.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:02
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Jaxyon posted:Leftists can absolutely be racist. Luckily we have no shortage of posters who have come to D&D, the one true home of racism, to preach this like it's their job, so yeah, we know.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:06
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Y'all need to read Teddy Roosevelt on the subject of getting into arenas Note: Teddy helped found the progressive movement
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Sep 22, 2017 00:07
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The hand wringing only works if you think Graham is both smarter and better at debating than Sanders. Sanders went toe to toe with Clinton like 50 times. I know a lot of this thread hates Clinton but she's good at debates, better than Lindsay Graham. I don't know anything about Klobuchar's skills, but I really don't think this can be bad for dems. Also, now that I'm tilting more towards the Sanders wing than the Clinton wing, I want to unblock some people I'd previously put on ignore. Does anyone know how to un-ignore people?
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Sep 22, 2017 00:07
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Hellblazer187 posted:Also, now that I'm tilting more towards the Sanders wing than the Clinton wing, I want to unblock some people I'd previously put on ignore. Does anyone know how to un-ignore people? go to the ignore list, delete their name, hit update, also be sure to put my name in before you hit update
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Sep 22, 2017 00:09
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Kekekela posted:Luckily we have no shortage of posters who have come to D&D, the one true home of racism, to preach this like it's their job, so yeah, we know. I'm actually talking as a leftist, from experience, and it's one of the most insidious problems on the left and so snark is certainly a possible response here but not a really great one. If you think I'm here doing this just to find a reason to poo poo on leftists, or if you think people aren't "lefty racist" here I dunno what to tell you.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:09
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Kekekela posted:Luckily we have no shortage of posters who have come to D&D, the one true home of racism, to preach this like it's their job, so yeah, we know. You sound saltier than Lot's Wife.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:10
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I feel like this debate is way more of a risk to Graham/Cassidy since their strategy so far with this bill has been to keep it quiet and out of the national discourse as much as possible (with the CBO unable to do a complete scoring in time). They have been straight-up lying on how it will 'retain pre-existing condition coverage' when it absolutely doesn't. The more they talk about it the worse they look, since there is no actual positive in this bill.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:10
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Hellblazer187 posted:The hand wringing only works if you think Graham is both smarter and better at debating than Sanders. Sanders went toe to toe with Clinton like 50 times. I know a lot of this thread hates Clinton but she's good at debates, better than Lindsay Graham. I don't know anything about Klobuchar's skills, but I really don't think this can be bad for dems. The concern that the framing of the debate "Single Payer versus Senate Plan" is a win for Republicans regardless and there's a risk that the idiotic media take something stupid a Democrat says and runs with it while ignoring the Republican lies because "expectations". It won't matter to anyone who "wins" the debate.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:10
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Jaxyon posted:Again, it won't accomplish that. disagreed. at best, people are going to hate republicans even more when they go on stage and smile and grin about ripping away what little healthcare they can afford at worst, it doesn't have any effect whatsoever. yes, there's going to be diehard conservatives that will clap along to whatever graham says, but that's a vanishingly small portion of the population, which is why republicans were fleeing their own townhalls last time they pulled this poo poo. you're being far too pessimistic. yeah, you can claim "well trump's debate performance didn't dissuade people from him!", but lindsey graham isn't trump, and he's not riding a populist wave. he's standing against one BetterToRuleInHell posted:Single payer is still the socialism boogeyman. that'd be a dumb move. giving sanders free time to talk about how he wants to improve access to healthcare by expanding access to medicare (which tons of people love and wish they could be on) would just make republicans attempts to rip away healthcare from people look even worse in comparison
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Sep 22, 2017 00:11
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Also remember Bernie Sanders is the single most popular politician in the United States of America. Anyone wrestling Stone Cold in 96 got booed, and modern American politics is at least as stupid if not much much more stupid than WWF in the 1990s, so I think by going against Sanders, Graham suffers.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:13
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Jaxyon posted:I'm actually talking as a leftist, from experience, and it's one of the most insidious problems on the left and so snark is certainly a possible response here but not a really great one. I'm actually talking as a poster, from experience. Butt hurt is certainly a possible response here and possibly a great one. If you think I'm here just to find a reason to poo poo on someone talking as a leftist, or if you think we don't have posters that chastise us constantly for being closet/accidental racists I dunno what to tell you.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:13
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Koalas March posted:You sound saltier than Lot's Wife. Surprise, surprise.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:13
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/PrestonCNN/status/910968062123368452 Bernie is going to get to pitch Medicare-for-all of this evil poo poo bill. This is a fight that needed to happen earlier. Gonna watch the hell out of this.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:14
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Hellblazer187 posted:The hand wringing only works if you think Graham is both smarter and better at debating than Sanders. Sanders went toe to toe with Clinton like 50 times. I know a lot of this thread hates Clinton but she's good at debates, better than Lindsay Graham. I don't know anything about Klobuchar's skills, but I really don't think this can be bad for dems. this link should take you to your list. just delete people's names and save
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Sep 22, 2017 00:14
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Kekekela posted:Surprise, surprise. Yeah, you mad.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:15
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Kekekela posted:Luckily we have no shortage of posters who have come to D&D, the one true home of racism, to preach this like it's their job, so yeah, we know. Someone who thinks that they aren't racist probably should listen really well to someone else when they're told that they're being racist, not just dismiss it immediately. Especially when it's a PoC telling them that.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:15
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I like the implication that "closeted" racism doesn't deserve to be addressed.Kekekela posted:I'm actually talking as a poster, from experience. Butt hurt is certainly a possible response here and possibly a great one. You're literally defending racists, and mad when you called out on it. Confronting racism is like the bare minimum of being a good civil rights ally. Tell us what racist poo poo were you called out on, Kekekela.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:18
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You seem like a lot of other poeple in early recovery that try to attack others constantly with their newfound moral superiority. Or maybe you were just always an rear end in a top hat. At least lose the mod star so you can be put on ignore. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 22, 2017 00:22
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Kekekela posted:You seem like a lot of other poeple in early recovery that try to attack others constantly with their newfound moral superiority. Or maybe you were just always an rear end in a top hat. At least lose the mod star so you can be put on ignore. tell us more stories about people you met in rehab and how that relates to people you dont like on an internet forum
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Sep 22, 2017 00:24
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Kekekela posted:You seem like a lot of other poeple in early recovery that try to attack others constantly with their newfound moral superiority. Or maybe you were just always an rear end in a top hat. At least lose the mod star so you can be put on ignore. She sure is getting uppity, eh?
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Sep 22, 2017 00:25
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Kekekela posted:You seem like a lot of other poeple in early recovery that try to attack others constantly with their newfound moral superiority. Or maybe you were just always an rear end in a top hat. At least lose the mod star so you can be put on ignore. Literally telling a PoC to give up what little power they have so that you can ignore them. 
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Sep 22, 2017 00:28
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