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boner confessor posted:you understand what dogwhistling is, maybe The reaction you're speaking of reeks of white fragility. edit: the Best First Lady and her puppies.  
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Sep 22, 2017 18:11
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Majorian posted:Our big objection is that it's not completely unexamined, Nobody said it was completely unexamined. It's shifts like this that are a pain in the rear end and a big part of the problem.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:12
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Koalas March posted:The reaction you're speaking of reeks of white fragility. I was editing the following paragraph into my last reply when I figured I should see what other posts come up... it happens to perfectly answer your post here. And I didn't accuse you of doing it. I specifically added in "seemingly" to the second time I used it to make it clear that I meant from my perspective. If I didn't make that clear enough then I'm also sorry for that. The point was not "you're dogwhistling" it's that the tactic has become so common that I immediately suspect someone of doing that when I see something like your post. The left might seem a little trigger-happy on accusations of racism or perceived accusations of racism because they're become conditioned to the tactic.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:13
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Koalas March posted:The reaction you're speaking of reeks of white fragility. White fragility? I don't know if that applies to this 8 page debate about racism in leftist movements. 
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Sep 22, 2017 18:13
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Futuresight posted:If using dogwhistle in that way is harmful then I didn't know and I'm sorry for that. I used it purely to mean "saying something people who are on your side will understand without explicitly saying it" and I don't know of any other word for it. You're right, but LunarShadow posted:It is also meant to specifically refer to coded racism. In a discussion about race, the term dogwhistle is going to carry the racial connotation every drat time.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:14
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boner confessor posted:you understand what dogwhistling is, maybe Why did you shift so quickly to accusations of racism if that was not your original intent?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:15
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Futuresight posted:Why did you shift so quickly to accusations of racism if that was not your original intent? maybe i didn't shift to accusations of racism at all and you perception of my argument is flawed? is that a possibility that crossed your mind? have you considered that you may actually be incorrect here? please tell me why pointing out that a government policy from 80 years ago acted in a racist manner is actually an accusation of racism against another poster? i'll wait
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Sep 22, 2017 18:16
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Jaxyon posted:Nobody said it was completely unexamined. No, but LunarShadow said, "there is a problem of unexamined racism on the left." It's a broad statement - not factually incorrect, but it glosses over leftist groups that have been trying really drat hard to be better about this. And still, months after the election, we deal with the implication that criticisms of centrist candidates, parties, and policies from the left must be coming from white misogynist racist Bernie Bros. All while reading about how Hillary Clinton was "the candidate of black people." Can you see why some of us would bristle a bit at that?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:16
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Majorian posted:Our big objection is that it's not completely unexamined, nor is it uniformly unexamined among Bernie supporters, nor is it fair to suggest that it's more unexamined among Bernie supporters than among other left-of-center voters or activists. (contrary to what is often implied) As others have pointed out, groups like DSA are making concerted efforts to examine racism and expunge it from their ranks. Dsa is not the best example either, Especially since a lot if the local branches that don't lean heavily rev soc have a bad habit of not making any ties in their community. North Alabama DSA tried to run a white outsider candidate for city council in a majority black city against a homegrown BLM endorsed candidate without ever once actually speaking to the other camp/grassroots organuze.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:16
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I feel weird and uncomfortable when people act like the left has a problem with addressing racism too fiercely. Especially in a conversation where PoC are saying racism is not addressed enough. That's a false assumption. I think that is rooted in white fragility. You (the general 'you') perceive a small amount of racial stress and lash out and get defensive when it's not necessary. poc: There is a problem with addressing racism in the leftist movement yts: There is a problem with racist accusations in the leftist movement. It's a silencing tactic.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:16
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There's only so many hours in a day. I think Bernie had a commitment to racial justice and I think Hillary had a commitment to economic fairness, but you know when you've got 20 minutes for a speech and CNN is going to cut to a Trump Rally in five minutes, you emphasize what you emphasize and perceptions form from there. Clinton won black voters in the south. There were a poo poo load of people online on the Bernie subreddit talking about "low information" and you have to be a fool not to see the racial implications of that talk. Clinton already had a relationship with the community and remember she was first lady of Arkansas, so she's got much more of a relationship with the south than Bernie was able to make up there in VT.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:17
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Futuresight posted:And I didn't accuse you of doing it. I specifically added in "seemingly" to the second time I used it to make it clear that I meant from my perspective. So you dogwhistled it?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:19
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LunarShadow posted:Dsa is not the best example either, Especially since a lot if the local branches that don't lean heavily rev soc have a bad habit of not making any ties in their community. North Alabama DSA tried to run a white outsider candidate for city council in a majority black city against a homegrown BLM endorsed candidate without ever once actually speaking to the other camp/grassroots organuze. Like I said, there's a lot of work to be done. But the Anti-Racism Working Group strikes me as a good example of leftists trying to examine and stamp out racism from among their ranks. There are some local branches that need to get their asses kicked back in line, no question, but it seems to me that the NPC is making good faith moves to do that.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:19
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Majorian posted:No, but LunarShadow said, "there is a problem of unexamined racism on the left." It's a broad statement - not factually incorrect, but it glosses over leftist groups that have been trying really drat hard to be better about this. And still, months after the election, we deal with the implication that criticisms of centrist candidates, parties, and policies from the left must be coming from white misogynist racist Bernie Bros. All while reading about how Hillary Clinton was "the candidate of black people." The problem is, as I addressed before, she was. You guys just gotta accept it and figure out how to message to black people. You should start by engaging our community, as that's exactly how she earned her supporters. Again I am saying 'you' in a general sense. Since the election how many rallies for the black community has Bernie been to? Has be been to black churches? Has he still been addressing the justice system? Supporting BLM? How many DSA groups have been working with BLM? How many DSA groups are openly fighting to reform the justice system? I am asking in good faith, because I honestly have no idea.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:20
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Hellblazer187 posted:Clinton won black voters in the south. There were a poo poo load of people online on the Bernie subreddit talking about "low information" and you have to be a fool not to see the racial implications of that talk. Clinton already had a relationship with the community and remember she was first lady of Arkansas, so she's got much more of a relationship with the south than Bernie was able to make up there in VT. there's also a blind spot where some folks who posture about their leftism don't realize how many centrist dems there are and that it's ok to be a centrist dem. so southern democrats of color legitimately are more conservative and this doesn't make them low information, it just means they have a different set of values. the end result of education is not socialism, turns out it was funny watching people switch from using low information when you reminded them that unlike the bleached white northern suburbs where they grew up, there are actually a substantial number of african americans in the south and that it was a bad look to call all southern democrats ignorant
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Sep 22, 2017 18:21
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There's obviously a major problem with unexamined racism on the left. It absolutely has to be discussed and addressed. Only issue I had is political opponents of leftists using a good faith effort on the part of leftists to acknowledge left racism (like a public apology) as a tool to claim that they're racist and "we" (whoever the political opponents are) are not. But that concern can't prevent you from addressing racial problems.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:22
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boner confessor posted:maybe i didn't shift to accusations of racism at all and you perception of my argument is flawed? is that a possibility that crossed your mind? have you considered that you may actually be incorrect here? So you saying this: "hm sorry but racism is over now, so large scale technocratic plans couldn't possible have racially based negative side effects" Is what? And I specifically went out of my way to say this is specifically my perception of what happened. I never stated it as objective truth. So you're accusing me of something I not only never did but specifically went out of my way to avoid. Which is definitely a pattern. We can have a conversation if you want.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:23
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Wow, thread moves quick.Koalas March posted:Name changes are a thing, buddy. Check the top of the forums. Kekekela has had that name for over a decade now, I remember it from years back. He's a poo poo head but I don't think the name is a reference to the racist kek meme. Koalas March posted:This seems disingenuous. He added that later. I remember it was a big thing in the primaries, he didn't address any of that until BLM took his mic. I guess I should've reiterated that I am speaking about the primary/election. To clarify before I begin, this isn't meant as a rebuttal to you/r post in particular, but more responding to the general idea that Bernie hasn't addressed racial inequality when called out on it. This is a narrative that's stuck heavily and is a big driver behind the current discussion on racism in leftist movements. BLM taking his mic was months before the primaries, though I guess the primary campaign began in 2015. Bernie's initial focus was on economic issues and in response to BLM he expanded his message to include racial justice and equality. I in particular remember this very shortly after the mic incident, at a time when most politicians didn't want to address the Bland murder whatsoever. Another BLM activist (Symone Sanders) contacted him with suggestions of how to improve and he then hired her to be his press secretary, and the Bernie campaign notably and markedly improved on that front from that point forward. I think the criticism of Bernie not being good enough on racial issues is justified and necessary, but I think it's unfortunate that the first impression has seemed to stick with him long since him actually turning to address and advocate for racial justice. I think some part of the responsibility here has to go to the mainstream media and the Clinton campaign, which saw a potential scandal / political weakness (respectively) and drove hard on that topic repeatedly for clicks and votes. That then helped to reinforce the initial impression of Bernie as insufficient on racial justice. I could append additional examples of him actively working with black groups and leaders but as you said, your point was more about the primary and not what he's up to nowadays. I agree that there are too many leftists who take minority concerns for granted and don't give them sufficient attention or consideration. boner confessor posted:highlighting that the only struggle that matters is the class struggle is an argument borne from white guys who only talked to other white guys in majority white nations during a period of white global dominance so it's a bit of a skewed perspective to put it mildly Racism is encouraged and exacerbated by classism, and thanks to racism minorities aren't as successful and are less accepted when (if) they manage to scrape past all the barriers the system has in place against them and move into upper economic classes. Some people believe that you can completely separate out social and economic issues -- they're wrong. As long as racial inequality exists, there can be no economic equality. Economic equality is racial equality. You can't have a system where an ethnicity is treated unfairly and have it be economically equal (though you can, in theory, have a system where racial animosity doesn't exist but economic inequality does). NWBTCW is an anticapitalist and antiwar slogan, not a slogan to minimize racial inequality. I don't care about idiots and provocateurs misusing it or using it to shut down minorities. Feel free to poo poo on these people when they do. You are Popular Thug Drink, though, so it's hard to take anything you say seriously and not as yet another attempt at disingenuous poo poo-stirring for your own amusement.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:25
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Casey Finnigan posted:There's obviously a major problem with unexamined racism on the left. It absolutely has to be discussed and addressed. Only issue I had is political opponents of leftists using a good faith effort on the part of leftists to acknowledge left racism (like a public apology) as a tool to claim that they're racist and "we" (whoever the political opponents are) are not. But that concern can't prevent you from addressing racial problems. Is someone doing that in this thread, right now?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:25
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Koalas March posted:The problem is, as I addressed before, she was. You guys just gotta accept it and figure out how to message to black people. You should start by engaging our community, as that's exactly how she earned her supporters. DSA recently had a major shakeup with a lot of anti-cop peeps getting elected into National (And one pig, but that caused a backlash that resulted in him stepping down) . DSA has a lot if promise, but all we can do now is wait and see how stuff turns out. North Alabama DSA dud work with BLM regarding a confed statue in Madison, but that was mainly organized by a rev soc affiliate who grew disillusioned after cause the NADSA wanted him to tone down his speeches despite him singlehandedly doubling membership as well as personally building ties with BLM in North Alabama as well as the Young Patriots Edit: holy phone posting clusterfuck, Batman LunarShadow fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 18:28
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Koalas March posted:I feel weird and uncomfortable when people act like the left has a problem with addressing racism too fiercely. Especially in a conversation where PoC are saying racism is not addressed enough. That's a false assumption. I think that is rooted in white fragility. You (the general 'you') perceive a small amount of racial stress and lash out and get defensive when it's not necessary. I agree that this also happens. Which is why I think we need to look at the context of where it started to figure out which one it was.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:28
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Jaxyon posted:Is someone doing that in this thread, right now? Yeah five pages ago a dude was asking why the Democratic left couldn't just get it together to apologize for its racial missteps, while he wasn't asking that other groups that have had similar racial problems do the same. While I was saying that if you want one group to apologize and acknowledge racial issues they all should, and that calling on only the Sanders leftists to apologize for their racism and no one else plays into the narrative of leftists being white, privileged, Bernie Bros. I also think that the very existence of certain particular loud racists/antisemites and their lovely views is not the responsibility of leaders of these movements, since they seem to exist in all movements. But issues like a tendency to ignore the voices of minorities are definitely the responsibility of movement leaders. Casey Finnigan fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 18:31
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Futuresight posted:So you saying this: sarcasm, aka a joke. they used to be pretty popular around here Futuresight posted:And I specifically went out of my way to say this is specifically my perception of what happened. so you wrote a huge bad post that completely missed the point and your defense is that it's your perception of what happened, and when asked to substantiate your point further you just insist that it's your unassailable, unquestionable perception of what happened ok???!? Futuresight posted:We can have a conversation if you want. i dont see the use of that given you've just said that you will not back down or concede any argument you make if it is your honest and 100% true recollection of what happened in your opinion. you accused me of calling another poster racist based on something where i am quite clearly not doing that at all. i dont know what you have to say to me that would be of any use to anyone
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Sep 22, 2017 18:31
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boner confessor posted:so you wrote a huge bad post that completely missed the point and your defense is that it's your perception of what happened, and when asked to substantiate your point further you just insist that it's your unassailable, unquestionable perception of what happened ok???!? You're going to have to point out where I said this thing in bold. Okay but what was the purpose of the joke?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:34
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If ya'll haven't been following this Jimmy Kimmel Healthcare poo poo, it's loving good. Here's day 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=457&v=KUH0KQ1qMiw I have to assume he's going to be doing this every night until the end of the month.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:37
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Koalas March posted:The problem is, as I addressed before, she was. In the sense that she messaged more successfully to black people, sure. But like I said before, it's a bit nauseating to hear that when this was the candidate who ran on an explicitly white working class platform in the 2008 primary, and freely used racist dogwhistles against a black candidate. With regard to Sanders personally, he just gave a speech in which he explicitly highlighted a lot of the points you asked about : quote:“If we’re going to expound the virtues of freedom and democracy abroad, we need to practice those values here at home,” Sanders said. “That means continuing the struggle to end racism, sexism, xenophobia and homophobia in the United States.” Last week, he had an awesome town hall at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit. The church's pastor (and Detroit NAACP head), Wendell Anthony, gave the introduction. Symone Sanders (no relation) has an op-ed in the Washington Post on the topic as well. Of course, he and his movement still have work to do. But it looks to me like he, the DSA, and a lot of other big leftist groups and leaders really are trying to examine racism within leftism and root it out.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:37
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Chilichimp posted:If ya'll haven't been following this Jimmy Kimmel Healthcare poo poo, it's loving good. Here's day 3: I think my annoyance about his Lindsey Graham comment just disappeared in a glorious cloud of ephemeral piss.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:39
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https://twitter.com/kurteichenwald/status/911280473099390981 Call your reps! I did and mine went on tv the next day to say she wishes death on everyone. https://twitter.com/SimonMaloy/status/911274365777477632 SS is doing a great job.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:39
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Office Pig posted:I think my annoyance about his Lindsey Graham comment just disappeared in a glorious cloud of ephemeral piss. I have no idea what that means.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:40
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Xae posted:It is a testiment to the power of selective memory that people can forget the root cause of the biggest drama bomb in D&D history in so little time. D&D didn't exist before November 9th of last year. (well, for several of us I imagine)
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Sep 22, 2017 18:41
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Majorian posted:In the sense that she messaged more successfully to black people, sure. But like I said before, it's a bit nauseating to hear that when this was the candidate who ran on an explicitly white working class platform in the 2008 primary, and freely used racist dogwhistles against a black candidate. have you noticed a pattern in your expressed thoughts that when you get uncomfortable thinking about the racism inherent in sanders' campaign you relieve the pressure by shifting to how bad hillary clinton was instead? i have
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Sep 22, 2017 18:41
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My post is dog-whistling. Literally though, I'm hoping my post will attract dogs.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:41
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Koalas March posted:Yeah, I am a big proponent for higher teacher salaries. Especially in low-income schools where they often take on even more responsibilities. Don't worry, we're hard at working cloning Michele Pfiefers to send in to all low-income schools. The hardest part has been working out the licensing for that Coolio song.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:43
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boner confessor posted:have you noticed a pattern in your expressed thoughts that when you get uncomfortable thinking about the racism inherent in sanders' campaign you relieve the pressure by shifting to how bad hillary clinton was instead? i have Well that's weird, because I've been acknowledging that there is racism among leftists, and that there is a lot of work to be done among Bernie's movement, DSA, etc, throughout this entire discussion. It's almost as if you...haven't been reading my posts?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:43
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RandomBlue posted:Don't worry, we're hard at working cloning Michele Pfiefers to send in to all low-income schools. The hardest part has been working out the licensing for that Coolio song. Cloning seems excessive, training in proper 'backward chair sitting' techniques would be a more cost efficient compromise.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:45
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Chilichimp posted:I have no idea what that means. 'Lindsey Graham is one of the few people who stands up to Trump'. Which is actually rather not true. Opposite in fact. I'm not making hay over it because Kimmel going on air night after night to rally people against legislative murder so far outweighs one moment of unwarranted good will that it's barely even a mote in the eye of god. I just kind of want to hope more people start recognizing Graham as the harbinger of the apocalypse.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:45
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Futuresight posted:I agree that this also happens. Which is why I think we need to look at the context of where it started to figure out which one it was. Here's a good tip: If a PoC is telling you something is fishy or racist, you should at the very least lend them your ear and hear them out. It's a weird, messy and inaccurate analogy but it's the same as you'd treat victims of sexual assault. It's a good idea to believe or at least treat them like they are telling the truth. if it comes out otherwise later, apologise and lay the blame on the accuser. it's always better to err on the side of caution. In both cases the victim is met with suspicion and disbelief which leads to instances and actions going unreported. I realize it's not a great analogy but for the record, I was a sexual assault victim and it's the best I could come up right now.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:47
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These stupid ads at the top are crashing my browser.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:47
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I found the leftist that is the cause of the racist leftist argument. https://twitter.com/horowitz39/status/910926311325159425
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Sep 22, 2017 18:48
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Office Pig posted:'Lindsey Graham is one of the few people who stands up to Trump'. Which is actually rather not true. Opposite in fact. I get the feeling that Kimmel realizes this, and he's trying to encourage more division between Graham and Trump, by appealing to Graham's vanity. I could be wrong, though. Mr Hootington posted:I found the leftist that is the cause of the racist leftist argument. That's it, congratulations - you've found Patient Zero. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 18:48
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