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I'm just puzzled as to why there needed to be a morality system for a game like Dishonored in the first place, where you are encouraged to make full use of your abilities and the environment to dispatch of enemies in successively creative ways. It's distracting then for the player to feel limited because they think they're nearing their quota of Too Many Bad Guys Killed to achieve Desired Goodness Result on the endscreen. As I said before, too video gamey in a title that doesn't really need it, and otherwise succeeds at building an immersive world.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:29
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Edit: new pageBombadilillo posted:You could live to be old and gray as a sex slave and that's still terrible Yes I know that. I started this conversation asking if that was worse than another outcome which is quite barbaric but more explicitly so. I was just saying that if other people wanted to give this non-lethal ending a "good" spin because of something they read in the books or whatever, there's nothing in the game that specifically says there is definitely an eternity of horrible things going to happen to this person even if that is almost certainly how it works. The game does heavily lean on the side of "not good" so I don't doubt that it's a completely horrible outcome, and I don't care about the books enough to see what they actually say myself.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:29
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Nonlethal violence is bullshit and one of the worst things to happen to video games.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:31
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exquisite tea posted:I'm just puzzled as to why there needed to be a morality system for a game like Dishonored in the first place, where you are encouraged to make full use of your abilities and the environment to dispatch of enemies in successively creative ways. It's distracting then for the player to feel limited because they think they're nearing their quota of Too Many Bad Guys Killed to achieve Desired Goodness Result on the endscreen. As I said before, too video gamey in a title that doesn't really need it, and otherwise succeeds at building an immersive world. I don't think a morality system needs to be in any game. Just have the choices present and show consequences for them. Let the players feel bad/good for their choices by themselves.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:33
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exquisite tea posted:I'm just puzzled as to why there needed to be a morality system for a game like Dishonored in the first place, where you are encouraged to make full use of your abilities and the environment to dispatch of enemies in successively creative ways. It's distracting then for the player to feel limited because they think they're nearing their quota of Too Many Bad Guys Killed to achieve Desired Goodness Result on the endscreen. As I said before, too video gamey in a title that doesn't really need it, and otherwise succeeds at building an immersive world. Like me and Bust Rodd said last page they got pressured into adding it in the last minute due to negative feedback (might be wrong because I can't find the article where I read it in)
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Sep 22, 2017 18:34
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Andrast posted:I don't think a morality system needs to be in any game. That's what Witcher 3 does.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:34
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Snak posted:Nonlethal violence is bullshit and one of the worst things to happen to video games. the morality system in dishonored is stupid and insanely lenient besides, but I like the nonlethal takedowns a lot the masquerade party one was hosed up tho
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Sep 22, 2017 18:34
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Snak posted:That's what Witcher 3 does. Yeah and it is definitely much better for it.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:35
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Sometimes I looked up a guide to see which choice in Witcher 3 would give me better loot
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Sep 22, 2017 18:37
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Andrast posted:I don't think a morality system needs to be in any game. Yeah, and especially don't tie abilities to one team or another like we're all dying to role play as Jedi vs Sith.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:38
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Digirat posted:The game doesn't split your actions into good and evil, it splits them into low chaos and high chaos which you're claiming is actually a moral binary when the game itself never calls it morality, and when there are low chaos actions that are arguably worse than high chaos ones. Samuel is just a character in the world and the fact that he thinks you're awful if you go full-on high chaos doesn't mean that every low chaos action is better than the corresponding high chaos action, or that the game itself even wants you to believe that. In fact it would be very hosed up if the game intended you to think you're doing a good thing if you go for the low chaos solution to level 4. I can see how, as a player you would feel that way and I feel the same. But I don't believe the chaos system presents itself as anything more than good/evil and it reinforces this a number of times throughout the game. Which is why it's a bad system that knocks the wind out of some interesting decisions.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:38
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What TW3 succeeds at is recognizing that most people in choice-based narratives want to be good, and so constructs many of its own decision points around scenarios where the most moral choice in the abstract is often the least humane.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:38
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Agreed.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:40
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Lobok posted:Yeah, and especially don't tie abilities to one team or another like we're all dying to role play as Jedi vs Sith. Speaking of star wars, KOTOR 2 was really dumb about that. The whole game was about the light/dark side being loving bullshit but the gameplay still punishes you for making nuanced decisions by making you more powerful at the extremes.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:40
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exquisite tea posted:What TW3 succeeds at is recognizing that most people in choice-based narratives want to be good, and so constructs many of its own decision points around scenarios where the most moral choice in the abstract is often the least humane. Best part about TW3's system is that you quickly learn you can't even trust your choice to work out in the long run. You might do the good thing in the moment but it ends up biting you in the rear end later.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:46
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Lobok posted:Best part about TW3's system is that you quickly learn you can't even trust your choice to work out in the long run. You might do the good thing in the moment but it ends up biting you in the rear end later. If not done well though these decision points can transform into the particular Telltale brand of "that thing you didn't want to happen happened anyway 5 minutes later."
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Sep 22, 2017 18:50
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I mostly play Dishonored as if it’s Thief 3. So I never got into the high chaos world. I thought that the more enemies and rats was a kind of reward for high chaos players because there was more to kill and a bunch of skills that used rat piles? But never looked into it. Binary morality system suck. The closest to being acceptable was Mass Effect because that was always a game about being a world savior but were you more of a Dirty Harry or a Buzz Lightyear about it? I liked Fallout 1’s reputation system where different towns would have different opinions of you and new towns might or might not have heard of who,you are. Skyrim sort of does this in a ham handed way by changing AI barks depending on what you do to the world but that often just highlights how insane it is that you can be head of the Mage’s Guild and a lowlife Thief and a Landholding Lord all in one.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:50
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More than anything the chaos system, and all good/bad/light/dark systems aren't good because it encourages players to do a "run" where they they are shooting for a specific result instead of playing to their own instincts, making it gamey in a way that makes people feel detached from their avatar. Moral choices should either have a notable impact on the story or be interesting enough that the decision on its own adds to the experience. The Lady Boyle example would be much more interesting if it wasn't ticking off an invisible box somewhere. Because, even if you feel like the low chaos option is more cruel, statistically you'll be inclined to take it if you are shooting for low chaos (yes I know you can kill some marks and get low chaos, but that is still how the system works) And I'm not sure why anyone would not call it binary when it's the definition of it.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:53
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I didn't mind the chaos state in Dishonored in the sense that it changed the world some and made dialogue systems different, but I do wish that I didn't have to sit through a lecture by the Outside about what a bad, bad boy I was. The fact that he is a Real God that gives people powers and sees what they do with them is cool and interesting, but having him then go "SO YOU LIKE BLOOD EH" is annoying. It gives you piles of stuff to kill with and then slaps your hand whenever you actually use them. It's MGSV all over again.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:56
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I played Dishonored 1 in low chaos because for once, and as a bad stealth player, I could kill a bunch of guys without being a serial killer. I never got good in Thief games and Dishonored was a bit more lenient when it comes to fix a gently caress up. The game is rad and is the only thing I care. I still have a high chaos replay pending wich I think it'll be faster.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:00
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The big takeaway I had from Witcher 3's choices is that I have terrible parenting skills. For the most part I liked how CD Projekt handled the choices in the game because it rejects the just-world hypothesis that almost all games with morality systems subscribe to and reinforce. The outcomes of your decisions seem almost arbitrary if you take them from a "video game" perspective where you are used to having perfect information about the situation (Witcher Sense even reinforces this, only to be undercut over and over) and games where moral agents with perfect information who make good decisions produce good outcomes. Witcher 3 doesn't believe in that and even if your actions do not produce the results you want them to, the chain of events is almost always reasonable from a psychological and social perspective, often because of information that Geralt and/or the player doesn't have access to. So in the gameworld of optimal outcomes it can seem bad, but in a narrative world of quagmires and realpolitik it all gels together. I mean, I still used a guide to make sure I got the ending I wanted, but still. Edit: gently caress, I really should play the expansions!
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Sep 22, 2017 19:14
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:The big takeaway I had from Witcher 3's choices is that I have terrible parenting skills. I first encountered this one dealing with the Crones. I thought that helping the Heart of the Forest would be the "most good" option, but no, The Bloody Baron's wife is a Water Hag forever, and the whole village by the bog gets wiped out, but at least the children are supposedly safe
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Sep 22, 2017 19:19
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Iron Crowned posted:I first encountered this one dealing with the Crones. I thought that helping the Heart of the Forest would be the "most good" option, but no, The Bloody Baron's wife is a Water Hag forever, and the whole village by the bog gets wiped out, but at least the children are supposedly safe That was almost Army of 2:2 levels of terrible twists to put your decision on its head.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:35
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Andrast posted:Speaking of star wars, KOTOR 2 was really dumb about that. The whole game was about the light/dark side being loving bullshit but the gameplay still punishes you for making nuanced decisions by making you more powerful at the extremes. "nuance" Kotor was pet puppy / kick puppy
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Sep 22, 2017 19:44
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ElwoodCuse posted:"nuance" Kotor was pet puppy / kick puppy Have you played kotor 2? It is really well written.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:48
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Manatee Cannon posted:hope y'all are wanting more nier because it's coming i'd rather they didn't
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Sep 22, 2017 19:49
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Y'all ready for Nier Card Battle Kiwami Gaiden Zero.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:50
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I honestly thought that High chaos in dishonored was too difficult to get to as I was getting to my objective killing the guards in my path but still not having enough kills to move into high chaos. I had to actively stop and backtrack through the levels and look for more people to kill to reach that point.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:29
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At least in D2 combat becomes trivial as soon as you get the bullet reflect ability. At that point you just hold guard until they whiff and then stab them in the face. Even the clockwork soldiers are laughably easy if you can take their heads off.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:38
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One thing that action games need to stop loving up is giving me morally ambiguous bad guys. Deus Ex: Human Revolution pits you against terrorists and PMC's the whole game, hired killers who are consistently portrayed as murderous bigots. But then in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided the whole game has you fighting like cops (some of whom might be corrupt) and security guards (who work for someone that you are trying to reason with) and like occasionally some mafia tough guys. I don't get to go ham on them because they feel like innocent bystanders and not like they deserve it. I can't really enjoy video games where its predicated on killing innocent people. I'm the guy that drives on the road in Grand Theft Auto. Dishonored gives you the perspective of "Everyone is in on this grand conspiracy" so it was easy for me to flit past the guards but enact bloody vengeance on all the key players. This is honestly part of why Wolfenstein and DOOM are so successful, because they are both full of satisfying-to-shoot enemies.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:41
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DreamShipWrecked posted:
MGSV doesn't do that at all though? If you're talking about rankings, the easiest way to get S-ranks is actually to sprint through missions as fast as possible killing everyone in sight...and if you're talking about the Demon Snake stuff, that requires you to murder a ridiculous amount of dudes and has little to no impact on the game.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:43
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you can murder the gently caress out of some cops in human revolution though
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Sep 22, 2017 21:45
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Adam Vegas posted:MGSV doesn't do that at all though? If you're talking about rankings, the easiest way to get S-ranks is actually to sprint through missions as fast as possible killing everyone in sight...and if you're talking about the Demon Snake stuff, that requires you to murder a ridiculous amount of dudes and has little to no impact on the game. S rank, sure, but the Mother Base mechanic is all about non-lethal captures. You can cut a swath of blood across the map but all you are going to get out of it is some BP
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Sep 22, 2017 21:50
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the game isn't slapping your hand for that also mgs5 came out years after dishonored so you're getting your misplaced comparison backwards
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Sep 22, 2017 21:53
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Brother Entropy posted:you can murder the gently caress out of some cops in human revolution though Is funny because I tried to stealth in the police station at the start of the game and I ended being Terminator. Best thing is that I walked out of there like nothing happened.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:14
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In "gameplay-centric" games, I (usually) prefer the moral clarity of goomba stompin.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:15
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Although I do wish they'd redone the Night Trap video in full HD, it does look much better than the sub-SD quality of the previous versions and I still highly recommend it. I found out that although the game was first released in 1992, it was filmed in 1987 which explains a lot. So drat cheesy. The bonus features are just icing on the cake. My only complaint is the long load time when starting the game. I'm guessing that it loads the entirety of the video into the PS4's RAM. Maybe that's why they didn't redo the video in HD? Not enough RAM in the PS4?
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Sep 22, 2017 22:22
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I like deus ex because you can role play your guy. And how you want to be means sometimes you say " well these guys don't deserve to die" and try to nonlethal. If that shallow level of player narrative is getting in the way of your gameplay. Deus Ex might not be for you
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Sep 22, 2017 22:26
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I like the morality of Yakuza games, act like a dick, get hit
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Sep 22, 2017 22:27
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Sakurazuka posted:I like the morality of Yakuza games, act like a dick, get hit To be fair with Yakuza it's more like "act like a dick get a bunch of rusty nails literally shoved into your eyes." Edit: Nonlethally though.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:35
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