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SKULL.GIF posted:The Democrats have neither the desire nor the guts to do this, because they still view Congressional Republicans as fellows and comrades. They're also the yawning maw that they can dangle the voting public over going "Look, I know we've not really done anything for you, but it's either us or..."
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Sep 24, 2017 06:57
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Mantis42 posted:Saying "The Democrats have been too focused on fighting racism to care about economics" is way too generous. Expand on that, because you sound like an idiot. Seriously, break down what you mean and give me a good idea of what you are talking about, or I'll assume you are just being an obtuse rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 24, 2017 06:57
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Pohl posted:Expand on that, because you sound like an idiot. Seriously, break down what you mean and give me a good idea of what you are talking about, or I'll assume you are just being an obtuse rear end in a top hat. The Democratic Party doesn't do poo poo without decades of pressure from its base and good polling on the issue.
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Sep 24, 2017 06:59
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Mantis42 posted:The Democratic Party doesn't do poo poo without decades of pressure from its base and good polling on the issue. Well, can't ignore that, this proof is undeniable.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:02
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Pohl posted:Expand on that, because you sound like an idiot. Seriously, break down what you mean and give me a good idea of what you are talking about, or I'll assume you are just being an obtuse rear end in a top hat. Generally speaking, people who are aligned with the Democrats but not "proper" democrats see the way they have behaved since the turn of the century and see a repeated pattern of  , sooner or later you begin to analyze why that might be with things like Matt Talabi's Why Young People Are Right About Hillary Clinon quote:Then of course there is the matter of the great gobs of money Hillary has taken to give speeches to Goldman Sachs and God knows whom else. Her answer about that — "That's what they offered" — gets right to the heart of what young people find so repugnant about this brand of politics.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:03
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Gonna be honest poo poo keeps getting framed as "you're not paying attention to minorities therefore leftism is bad" when its more "you're doing good stuff but there is very little confidence y'all won't stop caring once the problems that predominantly affect white people are addressed"
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Sep 24, 2017 07:03
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Gonna be honest poo poo keeps getting framed as "you're not paying attention to minorities therefore leftism is bad" when its more "you're doing good stuff but there is very little confidence y'all won't stop caring once the problems that predominantly affect white people are addressed" Hmmm yes between leftists and centrists, leftists are the ones noted for becoming complacent with the social status quo during times of economic growth. Is this thread for real?
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Sep 24, 2017 07:05
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Gonna be honest poo poo keeps getting framed as "you're not paying attention to minorities therefore leftism is bad" when its more "you're doing good stuff but there is very little confidence y'all won't stop caring once the problems that predominantly affect white people are addressed" What can we say in response to this other than "we promise we won't stop caring?"
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Sep 24, 2017 07:06
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I don't really follow sports. What teams are playing tomorrow so I can root them on in their protests? Anything in particular that's greater significance?
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Sep 24, 2017 07:08
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RuanGacho posted:Generally speaking, people who are aligned with the Democrats but not "proper" democrats see the way they have behaved since the turn of the century and see a repeated pattern of Young people are stupid and get high and drunk and don't vote every 4 years.. And they double don't vote for midterms.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:10
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Gonna be honest poo poo keeps getting framed as "you're not paying attention to minorities therefore leftism is bad" when its more "you're doing good stuff but there is very little confidence y'all won't stop caring once the problems that predominantly affect white people are addressed" That's reasonable until it's said by the people who literally made "being woke" into a tool that protects white supremacist policies.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:10
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PhazonLink posted:Young people are stupid and get high and drunk and don't vote every 4 years.. The people we're talking about in this context is generally "anyone under 50".
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Sep 24, 2017 07:11
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WrenP-Complete posted:I don't really follow sports. What teams are playing tomorrow so I can root them on in their protests? Anything in particular that's greater significance? The whole NFL is playing tomorrow. You might want to watch the Miami Dolphins game, as the owner is very supportive of his players and the Dolphins may have the largest protest. The Seahawks are also very outspoken, and Michael Bennett, who was mentioned earlier as being a victim of racial profiling and nearly killed for it, is on the team and absolutely will kneel. His brother, Martellus on the Packers, is also politically outspoken (Seriously, click it, he has a great response to Trump's racist poo poo) and several other Packers may kneel/demonstrate alongside Marty B too. https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/911778824555302912 Kickoff for games are at noon CST, 3:15 CST, and 7:30 CST, so you'll want to tune in about 15 minutes prior to these games to see the anthem stuff going on.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:13
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WampaLord posted:What can we say in response to this other than "we promise we won't stop caring?" its concern trolling so you don't say anything. it's a bunch of motherfuckers who are incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time; therefore, QED through the power of logic, science, neoliberal third wayism, and chronic navel gazing it is unrealistic to care about two things at the same time.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:13
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The Mainstream Dem version of fighting bigotry is "hire more black cops!" or "you guys can marry now, equality: complete" and leaving it at that as if there are not so many more problems that require far more radical policy changes to solve, problems that often benefit their donors. Leftists, or at least the ones I speak with, often attack the neoliberal position not because they think identity politics and civil rights are a distraction, but rather that the table scraps of equality that the Dems hand out are empty gestures at best, and curiously the economic vector that racism is often expressed through seems to be absent from the discussion at all times. "What about all the lenders that targeted predominantly black families for subprime mortgages despite qualifying for prime?", etc. Under the Clinton/Obama Democratic Party, those intersections of economic and racial justice are ignored. Hell, private prisons being big donors to the Democratic party and its candidates should be alarm bells about how these issues are tangled up in exploitation of racist public sentiments and biases for profit. People being afraid of minorities is really profitable for prisons, after all.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:14
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Gonna be honest poo poo keeps getting framed as "you're not paying attention to minorities therefore leftism is bad" when its more "you're doing good stuff but there is very little confidence y'all won't stop caring once the problems that predominantly affect white people are addressed"
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Sep 24, 2017 07:14
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Part of the problem is that while yes, some economic justice measures will help minorities somewhat (and in particular poor minorities, who have to deal with the double whammy), it's not going to address by itself the systematic and institutional factors that cause minorities to be on average worse off. You can't just attack the primary drivers of poverty for the population as a whole - you have to look at the factors that cause some groups to be more at risk for being in poverty if you want to actually achieve equality. So for example $15/hr minimum wage or UBI would definitely help low-income minority workers. Sure. But it won't solve the problem of people with "ethnic" names being locked out of some jobs due to hiring discrimination - unless you address the biases and practices that lead to that kind of discrimination, people of color will still often times not be able to get into the careers they want to have and be able to live the kind of productive and fulfilling lives they should be able to. Similarly, single-payer healthcare obviously helps more or less everyone. But it's not going to solve, for example, housing discrimination, which has been a huge driver of income inequality for generations (since people who can buy houses in "good neighborhoods" have assets to pass down to their children, and people who are forced to rent due to discrimination even when they could afford to buy will pass down less). Tax reform that puts the burden on the rich and on large corporations is a good unto itself, but it does nothing about discrimination in finance that often leads to minority small business owners getting screwed. And of course none of the economic justice measures mean much of anything to minority communities if they are at risk of being shot or sent to an ICE gulag (even if they are citizens) because they were driving while the wrong color. An improved standard of living is worthless if it can be all taken away. And the ability to achieve a reasonable plan for economic justice is impossible to achieve if the groups necessary to do so can be either physically removed from exercising their rights, or if they can be practically removed via voter suppression and other tools of oppression that systematically target them. So we really do have to do both, and economic justice will certainly help minority communities have to deal with fewer problems, but there are a lot of problems relating to racism that won't be solved except by attacking them directly on top of all that. Fraction Jackson fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 07:15
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[quote="“Pohl”" post="“476705187”"] Expand on that, because you sound like an idiot. Seriously, break down what you mean and give me a good idea of what you are talking about, or I’ll assume you are just being an obtuse rear end in a top hat. [/quote] They just spent the last 20 years dismantling the social safety net and pursuing technocratic market solutions to republicans' ongoing deregulation orgy. Ending foreign wars or addressing the rate at which American citizens are imprisoned and stripped of their rights was too radical for Obama. The aca is about as good as capitalism can get at delivering care but goes hand-in-hand with killing medicaid and welfare. As recently as 2016 Clinton was too cowardly to promise to try building a public option. They're all rich people who don't understand what capitalism really is or how it's basically doing a genocide to people in black communities.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:15
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WrenP-Complete posted:I don't really follow sports. What teams are playing tomorrow so I can root them on in their protests? Anything in particular that's greater significance? The Raiders are playing the Redskins in the Sunday night game in DC. The Raiders have a history of supporting social progress by making a lot of hires like "first woman X," "first Latino Y," and that sort of thing. They have a player named Marshawn Lynch who's been sitting all year for the anthem, and he's a hell of a character and extremely popular. He's Oakland through and through. Pretty much the whole team openly sympathizes with him, and there's been some other acts of solidarity during the anthem. The Redskins meanwhile, are unapologetic about using a racial slur as a nickname. If I was gonna watch one as a neutral, that would be it. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 07:17
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SKULL.GIF posted:The whole NFL is playing tomorrow. You might want to watch the Miami Dolphins game, as the owner is very supportive of his players and the Dolphins may have the largest protest. The Seahawks are also very outspoken, and Michael Bennett, who was mentioned earlier as being a victim of racial profiling and nearly killed for it, is on the team and absolutely will kneel. His brother, Martellus on the Packers, is also politically outspoken (Seriously, click it, he has a great response to Trump's racist poo poo) and several other Packers may kneel/demonstrate alongside Marty B too. Thank you! That's exactly the information I wanted.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:18
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WampaLord posted:What can we say in response to this other than "we promise we won't stop caring?" I mean speaking for myself I'm not sure there is anything because there's always an unspoken "...this time". Its not going to stop me from fighting alongside you but its going to be a worry at the back of my mind.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:20
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RuanGacho posted:Generally speaking, people who are aligned with the Democrats but not "proper" democrats see the way they have behaved since the turn of the century and see a repeated pattern of But I think Hillary should just go away... I don't understand what your post has to do with what we were talking about. Are the Democrats really too focused on race to talk about economics, because that is what was posted.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:23
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Pohl posted:Well, can't ignore that, this proof is undeniable. I can't think of anything Democratic politicians have really done for minorities on their own initiative in my lifetime. The black working class was devastated by the great Recession but never got the attention that the auto industry or Wall Street got when the Democrats controlled Congress. Nothing has been done about mass incarceration or the new Jim Crow - despite helping to create the problem. They have been tepid in supporting BLM, etc. The country and base have definitely moved to the left in that time, but it is always the result of grassroots movements outside of the party.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:26
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Pohl posted:But I think Hillary should just go away... I don't understand what your post has to do with what we were talking about. Are the Democrats really too focused on race to talk about economics, because that is what was posted. No, they use the social cover of being good on racism (which is an eminently debatable topic) as a shield for the fact that they're loving terrible on pretty much everything else people care about. Taiabi's article just uses the Clintons as the prime example because they're the beginning of the trend. If you think we somehow can discuss these things without bringing them into it I have bad news for you.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:27
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Fraction Jackson posted:Part of the problem is that while yes, some economic justice measures will help minorities somewhat (and in particular poor minorities, who have to deal with the double whammy), it's not going to address by itself the systematic and institutional factors that cause minorities to be on average worse off. You can't just attack the primary drivers of poverty for the population as a whole - you have to look at the factors that cause some groups to be more at risk for being in poverty if you want to actually achieve equality. Eventually most jobs will be automated so the problem of workplace discrimination sort of takes care of itself because there won't be a workplace anymore anyway. This is why UBI needs to be something that's discussed, debated, and implemented sooner rather than later.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:28
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PhazonLink posted:Young people are stupid and get high and drunk and don't vote every 4 years.. On the other hand all I ever hear is how these drat millennials don't cut loose and party as much, don't use drugs as much, don't like tits as much, don't like Applebees either, and as if all that wasn't bad enough none of them will buy my drat house  Maybe the reason Democrats can't win elections is, every time they lose an election they write a loving book slamming all the people who didn't vote for them, and then when it comes time to try to win some of those votes, all you hear is "why the gently caress would I do that, they don't vote anyway"  You realize that when you're part of a losing coalition it's your job to get more people to vote for you than in the last election (the one that, you know, you lost)?
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Sep 24, 2017 07:31
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SKULL.GIF posted:The whole NFL is playing tomorrow. You might want to watch the Miami Dolphins game, as the owner is very supportive of his players and the Dolphins may have the largest protest. The Seahawks are also very outspoken, and Michael Bennett, who was mentioned earlier as being a victim of racial profiling and nearly killed for it, is on the team and absolutely will kneel. His brother, Martellus on the Packers, is also politically outspoken (Seriously, click it, he has a great response to Trump's racist poo poo) and several other Packers may kneel/demonstrate alongside Marty B too. Kinda confused about what I'm supposed to do w/r/t these games, because I already swore I wasn't going to watch a single NFL game this season, but like, this protest stuff, so....
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Sep 24, 2017 07:34
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Mantis42 posted:I can't think of anything Democratic politicians have really done for minorities on their own initiative in my lifetime. The black working class was devastated by the great Recession but never got the attention that the auto industry or Wall Street got when the Democrats controlled Congress. Nothing has been done about mass incarceration or the new Jim Crow - despite helping to create the problem. They have been tepid in supporting BLM, etc. The country and base have definitely moved to the left in that time, but it is always the result of grassroots movements outside of the party. Obama and his administration were working incredibly hard to deal with the prison issue, if you didn't see it, it was because you didn't want to. Obama supported BLM, you are willfully ignoring history. Kokoro Wish posted:No, they use the social cover of being good on racism (which is an eminently debatable topic) as a shield for the fact that they're loving terrible on pretty much everything else people care about. Taiabi's article just uses the Clintons as the prime example because they're the beginning of the trend. If you think we somehow can discuss these things without bringing them into it I have bad news for you. What, no. I don't care, bring them into it. I never meant to imply anything different.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:34
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Kilroy posted:Ah yes, the old "young people don't vote so let's ignore them". A good post.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:35
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Pohl posted:Obama and his administration were working incredibly hard to deal with the prison issue, if you didn't see it, it was because you didn't want to. Obama supported BLM, you are willfully ignoring history. Obama got a participation trophy for trying to address the prison industrial complex.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:38
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Pohl posted:But I think Hillary should just go away... I don't understand what your post has to do with what we were talking about. Are the Democrats really too focused on race to talk about economics, because that is what was posted. Because it's not just about Hillary Clinton, despite the title.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:40
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Kilroy posted:You realize that when you're part of a losing coalition it's your job to get more people to vote for you than in the last election (the one that, you know, you lost)? This truism applies for both intra and inter coalition support building.
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Sep 24, 2017 07:46
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Pohl posted:Obama and his administration were working incredibly hard to deal with the prison issue, if you didn't see it, it was because you didn't want to. Obama supported BLM, you are willfully ignoring history. About 100k fewer people were in prison in 2015 than 2008. However, there were still 1.3m more prisoners in 2015 than 1980, so he had a less than 10% effect on the prison population boom caused by Reagan. 'Obama Says Movements Like Black Lives Matter ‘Can’t Just Keep on Yelling' - NYT April 2016
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Sep 24, 2017 07:50
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So, what happened recently that's getting leftists particularly vile? We're continuing to gain support for Medicare for All, we're continuing to primary in the states waaaay better than we did in 2014 and 2016, the Dems are holding the line against ACA repeal without any traitors so far, I'm seeing a new face in my DSA chapter every week.... what's the bee in your collective bonnets? Have centrists not been literally killing themselves fast enough to sate your thirst? Does the Dems playing DJT into potentially saving 800,000 minorities get your loving dicks blueballed?
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Sep 24, 2017 08:32
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Jesus loving Christ, this is still America, we need loving allies.
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Sep 24, 2017 08:33
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Potato Salad posted:So, what happened recently that's getting leftists particularly vile? We're continuing to gain support for Medicare for All, we're continuing to primary in the states waaaay better than we did in 2014 and 2016, the Dems are holding the line against ACA repeal without any traitors so far, I'm seeing a new face in my DSA chapter every week.... what's the bee in your collective bonnets? Have centrists not been literally killing themselves fast enough to sate your thirst? Does the Dems playing DJT into potentially saving 800,000 minorities get your loving dicks blueballed? The approach you're talking about - not being satisfied as long as there are still important problems to be solved - is the only reason the progress you mention has happened in the first place. Your attitude only really makes sense if someone is actually saying "I'm not going to vote for Democrats because of this", but simply expressing dissatisfaction as long as your political goals aren't being met is completely reasonable. To give you some idea why this particular attitude ("Why can't you just be satisfied???") is so off-putting, consider the following example: After the Civil Rights Act was passed, obviously black activism at injustice with the status quo continued. Would you also tell them "Why can't you just be happy that something good has been accomplished?" To be honest, what this attitude seems to reveal is that you don't actually consider issues like poverty, healthcare, inequality, etc to be important in the same way you might think of other issues. You might want to take a moment and really ask yourself why such criticism bothers you. I used to have an attitude similar to yours, and I eventually realized that it was because I had an irrational preoccupation with the idea of appearing "reasonable" in discussions rather than truly caring about positive change. edit: Also, there's actually been a whole lot of good reactions to the increased support for MfA/single-payer.
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Sep 24, 2017 08:42
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Ytlaya posted:The approach you're talking about - not being satisfied as long as there are still important problems to be solved - is the only reason the progress you mention has happened in the first place. Your attitude only really makes sense if someone is actually saying "I'm not going to vote for Democrats because of this", but simply expressing dissatisfaction as long as your political goals aren't being met is completely reasonable. Yeah the dissatisfaction isn't my issue, its the wholesale "Dems are worthless" that's a problem. There is a wide set of people under the leftmost tents, and the ones poisoning our revolution are the ones that come across like propaganda / falseflag bots. I'm on board with the rest of your post. fyi you're talking to a malcomite, I understand wholly where we cannot cease pushing for better. I'm saying we can do that without circle jerking about "Well the Dems don't offer us much better" when that is objectively false on nearly every issue of import. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 08:51
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Potato Salad posted:So, what happened recently that's getting leftists particularly vile? We're continuing to gain support for Medicare for All, we're continuing to primary in the states waaaay better than we did in 2014 and 2016, the Dems are holding the line against ACA repeal without any traitors so far, I'm seeing a new face in my DSA chapter every week.... what's the bee in your collective bonnets? Have centrists not been literally killing themselves fast enough to sate your thirst? Does the Dems playing DJT into potentially saving 800,000 minorities get your loving dicks blueballed?
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Sep 24, 2017 08:52
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The far-left is mad because that is their essence, it is their raison d'etre.
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Sep 24, 2017 08:59
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You're the guy who couldn't resist making near crypto fascist excuses and edging hard on "Dems shouldn't help on DACA" with dog whistles so loud that it woke up the pound two blocks from my house, right? Or do I have your particularly fantastic string of "Perfection or literally death and broken families, no middle ground folks" posting attributed to the wrong event?
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Sep 24, 2017 09:00
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