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Ok, I need some help here with Futuresight's last post and why it's so terrible, because I read it as saying Dems deserve criticism and lack of support from minorities if they don't follow up on their words with actions, and if their only solution is to fill positions and nothing else, then that's not good enough.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:17
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When did "liberal" become the big popular no-no word for your political affiliation that everyone beats off over for their new and improved left-wing infighting. When I was younger and politics poo poo was basically just republican - democrat to me, all I saw was republicans being bastards and terrible and democrats while not perfect were the far preferable choice, so I vaguely thought "Sure I'm a democrat" then. Then growing up more the GOP became a more visible entity as well, it's the republicans but even shittier but you also had liberals/ism on the rise, who were looking a drat sight better than just democrats, it was the only side that seemingly wanted to do anything for me, a poor LGBT youth in a poo poo situation, so "Sure I'm a liberal" after that. Now apparently I need to label dance over to "leftist" otherwise I'm a big dirty meany head on the wrong side, despite whether I call myself "liberal" or "leftist" my politics are gonna be the same poo poo on wanting a livable wage, support for minorities particularly LGBT since I've lived and am living that life, healthcare that's not insane and built to be hostile to the people who need it most, education that's not made to keep you in debt forever, justice system that's not going to lock you up for slave labor whenever it can and so on. I dunno I just wanted to make some big dumb vent post because people perpetually blowing gaskets over "DA LIBBERALSSS" has gotten really trite feeling, even if I'm a leftist or whatever makes it clear now that I have the good opinions.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:17
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Yardbomb posted:When did "liberal" become the big popular no-no word for your political affiliation that everyone beats off over for their new and improved left-wing infighting. the meaning of labels shifts over time, when people decry "liberals" now they're talking about do-nothing center-lefters who would rather have order than justice and buy into the insane camaraderie of a political system that makes it ok to despise minorities and the poor. i'm sorry that this is inconvenient to you
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Sep 24, 2017 21:21
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Yardbomb posted:When did "liberal" become the big popular no-no word for your political affiliation that everyone beats off over for their new and improved left-wing infighting. the first step in building a better world is winning an internet fight, apparently
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Sep 24, 2017 21:25
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Volkerball posted:If leftists want to be taken seriously maybe they should stop regurgitating talking points from fascists like Putin and Assad while simultaneously pretending to be super opposed to Nazis. Y'all sound like petulant children who just want to rebel against dad. Fix your own poo poo. Care to supply some examples with names attached? Otherwise this is really just screaming "alt-leeeft!" with more words.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:26
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hanales posted:I don't know why you're attacking me, when I'm just talking about what actually happens in our current environment. I'm glad you're proving to the thread how much more woke you are than I am I guess. why does someone who disagrees with you have to be "proving to the thread how much more woke [they] are"? why do you think i'm attacking you for viewing your opinion as "milquetoast patronizing"? If I had not called your statement patronizing, would you have thought I was attacking you? i think you're viewing any surface level changes as immediately bad faith and tokenism, which is not and does not have to be the case. as an example, the push for enrollment of black students into private schools post desegregation wasn't systemic change and it didnt help the average black student. it did incrementally push for equality as normalcy and has led to more black people in positions of power, and today groups like the posse foundation is largely doing that at the undergraduate level. this is not to say that projects like posse are perfect or that there isn't bad faith somewhere, but its still effective at normalizing equality and putting more minorities into the common pipelines towards positions of power. and besides, why not agitate for both systemic change and increased diversity in positions of power? and if and when people are hired/elected/promotion into token positions and marginalized, we as a demographic (people who think racism is really bad) can take action against that.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:28
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Ok, I need some help here with Futuresight's last post and why it's so terrible, because I read it as saying Dems deserve criticism and lack of support from minorities if they don't follow up on their words with actions, and if their only solution is to fill positions and nothing else, then that's not good enough. I suspect pretty much everyone read it that way, because it was obviously intended to mean that. You can see evidence for this in, for example, the various people pointing out exactly that as a reply to KM's initial angry, obtuse misreading of the post. Futuresight's sarcastic reply opened up the opportunity for a bunch of people to start whiteknighting, though. Probably best to just laugh at the absurdity of the situation and move on.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:29
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Hawkgirl posted:Personally I don't see the problem with helping people realize their own internal biases, we all have imperfections and pretending that they don't exist is kind of part of why America is so hosed up anyway. If we all want to do better, we should really be better about accepting criticism and looking inward. I personally didn't start really growing as a person until I started sitting down, shutting up, and truly LISTENING to the voices of women and POC, especially the ones I considered good friends. This meant confronting a lot of dumb lovely things I believed through cultural osmosis and otherwise and yes it sucked and sometimes I felt like total poo poo because of it! I still know I have a lot of internalized bullshit and know this learning is a neverending process. I am not accusing Futuresight of anything or trying to pretend that I'm super woke or anything, I'm just saying that I had to take a lot of rather deserved lumps to unlearn a bunch of lovely things because as a white dude in the US, even a well-meaning white dude who doesn't think they're racist, there is a lot of poo poo you think you know or presume to know that is just totally wrong.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:30
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Sephyr posted:Care to supply some examples with names attached? Otherwise this is really just screaming "alt-leeeft!" with more words. Max Blumenthal, Rania Khalek, Tulsi Gabbard, everyone who cited Ted Postol and Seymour Hersh's bullshit claims about the chemical weapons attacks to cover for Assad, and all the people repeating RT talking points despite the fact RT is a government-run outlet. Can you provide some examples of Western leftist thought leaders who aren't guilty of legitimizing any of this bullshit?
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Sep 24, 2017 21:31
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I see where you gave the caveat but the caveat itself is kind of weird. Where do you see it happening that it needs to be brought up? What you said trivially Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 21:32
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[quote="“Yardbomb”" post="“476721283”"] When did “liberal” become the big popular no-no word for your political affiliation that everyone beats off over for their new and improved left-wing infighting. When I was younger and politics poo poo was basically just republican - democrat to me, all I saw was republicans being bastards and terrible and democrats while not perfect were the far preferable choice, so I vaguely thought “Sure I’m a democrat” then. Then growing up more the GOP became a more visible entity as well, it’s the republicans but even shittier but you also had liberals/ism on the rise, who were looking a drat sight better than just democrats, it was the only side that seemingly wanted to do anything for me, a poor LGBT youth in a poo poo situation, so “Sure I’m a liberal” after that. Now apparently I need to label dance over to “leftist” otherwise I’m a big dirty meany head on the wrong side, despite whether I call myself “liberal” or “leftist” my politics are gonna be the same poo poo on wanting a livable wage, support for minorities particularly LGBT since I’ve lived and am living that life, healthcare that’s not insane and built to be hostile to the people who need it most, education that’s not made to keep you in debt forever, justice system that’s not going to lock you up for slave labor whenever it can and so on. I dunno I just wanted to make some big dumb vent post because people perpetually blowing gaskets over “DA LIBBERALSSS” has gotten really trite feeling, even if I’m a leftist or whatever makes it clear now that I have the good opinions. [/quote] The American people have moved leftward and the democrats have not. It's not a euphemism game where the kids think liberal is so last season or whatever. Liberalism is the political philosophy descended from Locke and Mill that prioritizes capitalism, individual autonomy, reasoned debate according to rules, and propriety. Until recently it described all politics in America, but for the last 20 years the margins have been moving and now there are nazis and socialists at the edges of and far beyond that discourse. The future won't be like the past. Us grandpas from the Bush jr days must evolve.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:35
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Volkerball posted:Max Blumenthal, Rania Khalek, Tulsi Gabbard, everyone who cited Ted Postol and Seymour Hersh's bullshit claims about the chemical weapons attacks to cover for Assad, and all the people repeating RT talking points despite the fact RT is a government-run outlet. Can you provide some examples of Western leftist thought leaders who aren't guilty of legitimizing any of this bullshit? keith ellison, liz warren, sherrod brown, etc. if we're just talking congresscritters
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Sep 24, 2017 21:36
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business hammocks posted:The American people have moved leftward i doubt this is true vs. just some perspectives being grossly amplified on the internet, to people who spend a lot of time on the internet
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Sep 24, 2017 21:37
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boner confessor posted:i doubt this is true vs. just some perspectives being grossly amplified on the internet, to people who spend a lot of time on the internet if we're talking social policy being a stand in for moving leftward, we have bc the country has steadily gotten less white over time
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Sep 24, 2017 21:39
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Aves Maria! posted:keith ellison, liz warren, sherrod brown, etc. if we're just talking congresscritters Not sure Ellison and Warren qualify as leftists. At least, I see them attacked from the left. Idk what the predominant opinion is, but I'm sure some people would consider them filthy liberals.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:39
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Volkerball posted:Not sure Ellison and Warren qualify as leftists. At least, I see them attacked from the left. Idk what the predominant opinion is, but I'm sure some people would consider them filthy liberals. wtf are you smoking that ellison isn't considered leftist?
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Sep 24, 2017 21:41
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Volkerball posted:Not sure Ellison and Warren qualify as leftists. At least, I see them attacked from the left. Idk what the predominant opinion is, but I'm sure some people would consider them filthy liberals. if you're literally gauging your opinions on the liberal/leftist divide based on the most fringe members of the left who hate every single dem, then yeah there isn't a single leftist in government. the majority of leftists wouldn't label them as such, though
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Sep 24, 2017 21:41
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Aves Maria! posted:if we're talking social policy being a stand in for moving leftward, we have bc the country has steadily gotten less white over time when the conservative party stops being so stupidly racist all of the time then you'll see more nonwhite conservatives. whether that's in ten or fifty years, who knows
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Sep 24, 2017 21:42
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boner confessor posted:when the conservative party stops being so stupidly racist all of the time good news
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Sep 24, 2017 21:44
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Aves Maria! posted:if you're literally gauging your opinions on the liberal/leftist divide based on the most fringe members of the left who hate every single dem, Well, that is who we are talking to here.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:44
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[quote="“boner confessor”" post="“476722118”"] i doubt this is true vs. just some perspectives being grossly amplified on the internet, to people who spend a lot of time on the internet [/quote] Do you think BLM would have happened in 2000? I really do think we're at the end of the long bridge begun by Reagan, both economically and culturally. Trump won running on a culture war platform reacting against more than a black capitalist millionaire.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:44
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Volkerball posted:Well, that is who we are talking to here. i thought we were talking about leftists, not crazy horseshoers like assange who think that being progressive means hating liberals to the exclusion of anything else
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Sep 24, 2017 21:46
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I kind of hate the way this thread talks about democrats. Not the way they poo poo on them exactly, but the way that they act like dems are some nebulous other. If you actually press them about specific dems you get "Well obviously I wasn't saying John Lewis hates black people." Well who were you talking about and are they actually a significant enough group to just say "Dems"? Everyone in this thread SHOULD be a Dem, because Dems have been the vehicle for progressive change in America for the past 50 odd years and they will continue to be the only viable one for the foreseeable future, at least on the national level. When you go on a rant about how Dems are worthless and should just disappear you are alienating everyone who actually recognizes and is proud of that fact. Like that guy I linked earlier who put scare quotes around "Civil" rights and said that they were worse than worthless since they didn't help establish communism.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:46
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Volkerball posted:Well, that is who we are talking to here. you're the first person i've seen saying ellison's not leftist, so maybe it's just you who thinks that?  also, just saw this on twitter: https://twitter.com/workersworld/status/911652627158532096 it sure would be bad for prisoners to be against white supremacy 
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Sep 24, 2017 21:48
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business hammocks posted:Do you think BLM would have happened in 2000? yes and no. BLM is just the social media incarnation of activist groups advocating black empowerment and protesting police brutality. so BLM's specific decentralized model couldn't have happened in 2000 but BLM is just the next step in a line of protest movements going back through jesse jackson's rainbow coalition to the civil rights movement, so it's not like a new generation of leftists figured out that protesting police brutality is a good thing to do once they discovered twitter. the only unique thing really is the technology, not the intent or the message
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Sep 24, 2017 21:50
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boner confessor posted:i doubt this is true vs. just some perspectives being grossly amplified on the internet, to people who spend a lot of time on the internet It's true, young people are overwhelming left-leaning in their views, significantly more so than any previous generation. There are a lot of data points to back this up, but probably the easiest one is to look at the support Bernie Sanders got, being the furthest-left politician on the national stage by a massive margin. Nation-wide, support for him in demographics under 30 was massive, over 70% in most places and as high as 85% in many. There a myriad of reasons for this, but probably the biggest are that A) it's the most diverse generation ever B) globalization and automation and a stagnation of wages has made the realization of the american dream more ethereal and unlikely than ever and C) the costs of education to rise above that situation have been completely infected by capitalism and further widen the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Basically, the system is rigged and every young person knows it, and it's been rigged by conservatives, centrists, and liberals alike. None of those groups are trying to do anything about it, so they're all being abandoned by their bases, only holding onto power thanks to old people, voter suppression, and special interests that fund enormous campaigns.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:51
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Taffer posted:It's true, young people are overwhelming left-leaning in their views, significantly more so than any previous generation. There are a lot of data points to back this up, but probably the easiest one is to look at the support Bernie Sanders got, being the furthest-left politician on the national stage by a massive margin. Nation-wide, support for him in demographics under 30 was massive, over 70% in most places and as high as 85% in many. oh hello me from 2000, let me tell you that grad school is probably not the best use of your time
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Sep 24, 2017 21:52
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Aves Maria! posted:i thought we were talking about leftists, not crazy horseshoers like assange who think that being progressive means hating liberals to the exclusion of anything else Specifically, I was talking about the people ITT who were ranting about liberals and think the reason no one listens to them is because liberals are collaborators and neocons, instead of, you know, them being idiots who don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. If you want to attack the Dems from the left on income inequality, health care, and race, by all means, have at it. I totally sympathize with what you have to say. But at some point down that road, it stops being about making change and more about rolling in your own poo poo.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:52
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7c Nickel posted:I kind of hate the way this thread talks about democrats. Not the way they poo poo on them exactly, but the way that they act like dems are some nebulous other. If you actually press them about specific dems you get "Well obviously I wasn't saying John Lewis hates black people." Well who were you talking about and are they actually a significant enough group to just say "Dems"? ill give you a list of bad dems: peter daou, diamond joe, joe lieberman, tulsi gabbard, clintons, alan dershowitz, dianne feinstein, bob menendez, tim ryan, and uhhh... some other guys/gals and that one guy from WV that mcmagic really dislikes they're all bad bc they're either pretenders, use the democrat brand as a shield against accusations of racism, actively hamstring social justice, or are otherwise just dumb and lovely ppl note that that list includes a couple "leftist" darlings, too, bc they're also cynical bastards
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Sep 24, 2017 21:53
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Condiv posted:you're the first person i've seen saying ellison's not leftist, so maybe it's just you who thinks that? in fairness it's probably blocked out of fears of it starting an uprising against the aryan brotherhood
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Sep 24, 2017 21:53
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Volkerball posted:Max Blumenthal, Rania Khalek, Tulsi Gabbard, everyone who cited Ted Postol and Seymour Hersh's bullshit claims about the chemical weapons attacks to cover for Assad, and all the people repeating RT talking points despite the fact RT is a government-run outlet. Can you provide some examples of Western leftist thought leaders who aren't guilty of legitimizing any of this bullshit? And where are these people in this thread specifically? Volkerball posted:Specifically, I was talking about the people ITT who were ranting about liberals and think the reason no one listens to them is because liberals are collaborators and neocons, instead of, you know, them being idiots who don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. If you want to attack the Dems from the left on income inequality, health care, and race, by all means, have at it. I totally sympathize with what you have to say. But at some point down that road, it stops being about making change and more about rolling in your own poo poo. Thanks for clarifying nothing.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:53
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Volkerball loving ANNIHILATING those strawmen today.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:55
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Aves Maria! posted:ill give you a list of bad dems: peter daou, diamond joe, joe lieberman, tulsi gabbard, clintons, alan dershowitz, dianne feinstein, bob menendez, tim ryan, and uhhh... some other guys/gals and that one guy from WV that mcmagic really dislikes nancy pelosi belongs there too cause she was both sides-ing with regards to antifa and that's real bad and dumb
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Sep 24, 2017 21:55
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FamDav posted:why does someone who disagrees with you have to be "proving to the thread how much more woke [they] are"? why do you think i'm attacking you for viewing your opinion as "milquetoast patronizing"? If I had not called your statement patronizing, would you have thought I was attacking you? I mean you just used the worst example, as schools are at their highest disparity levels in decades. If there is anything that has failed the black communities it is our public and charter school systems in the majority of the country. Things have not slowly gotten better, major policy change has to be forcefully implemented for the future of our country as a whole, and people of color in particular. While it's great that every private school expects to have a few minorities, we're talking fifty years of failure on the behalf of everyone else. It's the equivalent of winning the lottery. Posse Foundation is a noble organization, but it's not government policy. How do you think things are going to go for them with Betsy DeVos in the education department? You can agitate for anything you want, the point was not to accept tokenism in the first place, as that is not enough, this has been proven time and time again over the years. Because until there is a massive shift and the current leadership is toppled, you won't actually effect any change moving forward. And yes, saying that I'm being "milquetoast" and "patronizing" because I see a different picture than you do is condescending and unhelpful to the conversation.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:55
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Volkerball posted:Specifically, I was talking about the people ITT who were ranting about liberals and think the reason no one listens to them is because liberals are collaborators and neocons, instead of, you know, them being idiots who don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. If you want to attack the Dems from the left on income inequality, health care, and race, by all means, have at it. I totally sympathize with what you have to say. But at some point down that road, it stops being about making change and more about rolling in your own poo poo. that wasnt really clear in the post i saw at the top of this page so if it doesnt apply to what you're saying ignore me
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Sep 24, 2017 21:55
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Condiv posted:nancy pelosi belongs there too cause she was both sides-ing with regards to antifa and that's real bad and dumb I agree with the statement that someone made in the Trump Thread where she's really awesome at and essential to finagling procedural poo poo to whip up votes and get poo poo done, she's just kind of terrible at the policy and party direction side of things (those statements about antifa being a perfect example)
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Sep 24, 2017 21:59
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Aves Maria! posted:that wasnt really clear in the post i saw at the top of this page so if it doesnt apply to what you're saying ignore me I probably didn't frame it as well as I could've, so my b.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:59
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Aves Maria! posted:ill give you a list of bad dems: peter daou, diamond joe, joe lieberman, tulsi gabbard, clintons, alan dershowitz, dianne feinstein, bob menendez, tim ryan, and uhhh... some other guys/gals and that one guy from WV that mcmagic really dislikes If you can barely think of a double digit number, and have to include politicians that aren't democrats to get there, then you probably shouldn't be thinking of them when you say "dems".
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Sep 24, 2017 22:00
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7c Nickel posted:I kind of hate the way this thread talks about democrats. Not the way they poo poo on them exactly, but the way that they act like dems are some nebulous other. If you actually press them about specific dems you get "Well obviously I wasn't saying John Lewis hates black people." Well who were you talking about and are they actually a significant enough group to just say "Dems"?  Mostly, anyways. There are times the national party really, really disappoints me. On the other hand, over the last 100ish years, all positive legislation has come from the democratic party. Civil Rights Act had some GOP votes but was signed by a Dem president. But besides that, everything that's made life even the littlest bit less miserable since 1932 has been 100% from the Democratic party. The national party isn't doing enough. They "lost their progressive soul" or whatever that Atlantic article was called (and it's a good, informative article!). Unless and until we get major voting reform (ranked choice, multi-member districts) we're a ton better off running dems in primaries that have DSA ideas than running a DSA candidate in a general. Any big tent is going to have bad people but it's wrong to suggest this tent doesn't have some good people too. (The other big tent is all bad people, though.)
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Sep 24, 2017 22:00
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Nevvy Z posted:I see where you gave the caveat but the caveat itself is kind of weird. Where do you see it happening that it needs to be brought up? I see it potentially happening as part of an overall trend. I'm not pointing fingers at specific things that are happening but things that I think are likely to happen. For a recent example of the trend is Obama. I don't hate Obama like some on the left, I think he was absolutely not the president needed given my politics, but he wasn't exactly up against a candidate that was. Obama v Hillary then Obama v McCain? Sure, pick Obama both times. Compared to his competition he's probably the best choice, and definitely one of the better US presidents. Now Obama wasn't a president that ended racism, which it is completely dumb to think 1 president even could, but you still had people going on about how racism is over. Even on the Democratic side there were people acting like it was just enough to elect a black president. And honestly, Obama didn't do enough for black people or minorities in general. I'm not going to go into whether he could given Republicans and blue dogs or whether it's fair to blame him for that. I'm not bringing him up to assign blame. The point is that electing a black man president was not near enough. It was a good start. But it needs to be accompanied by a real push for change. Elect/promote/hire black women into positions, just don't go to sleep afterwards thinking that makes the job done like people did with Obama, or let the Democratic party do the same. Again though, between BLM really getting into politicians faces and support dropping amongst black women I'm feeling more confident that this time people won't stand for that asleep at the wheel poo poo.
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Sep 24, 2017 22:01
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