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BigRed0427 posted:Same here. If I ever had to pick between these two I will pick the Antifa Cat girl every time. But I do get where Contra is coming from in her criticisms of her. You should join up with dsa or maybe our revolution if you want to avoid that kind of doctrinaire horseshit.
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Sep 24, 2017 23:21
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My more actively socialist friends tell me that stuff's getting more common in the DSA too so
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Sep 25, 2017 00:17
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There's a lot of tankie types out there whose politics haven't evolved past "MERIKA BAD" no matter what label they've given themselves. As a result they'll happily slobber all over Assad, Putin and North Korea because hey! At least their imperialism and atrocities aren't America's imperialism and atrocities.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:27
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Kim Justice posted:Everyone shut the gently caress up I agree with everything Justine said in this video. That doesn't mean I don't think Tabby makes good points. I can see where she's coming from, but she represents the part of leftism that is self-sabotaging. I see it all the time, leftist that think that their ideologies alone should convert people over without wondering how they and their actions look to other people. Justine represents Contra's criticisms of the left and I couldn't have said those criticisms any better.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:50
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Wow, I didn't think I'd see a completely unironic centrism.biz in the critic thread of all places but here we are https://twitter.com/centrismdotbiz/status/910527877598334976
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Sep 25, 2017 02:23
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:Wow, I didn't think I'd see a completely unironic centrism.biz in the critic thread of all places but here we are 
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Sep 25, 2017 03:30
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We're still in the thread where there was an internet reviewer donning exaggerated caricatures about how the status quo is good and in fact working against it is harmful, right?
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Sep 25, 2017 03:39
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:We're still in the thread where there was an internet reviewer donning exaggerated caricatures about how the status quo is good and in fact working against it is harmful, right? 
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Sep 25, 2017 03:41
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:We're still in the thread where there was an internet reviewer donning exaggerated caricatures about how the status quo is good and in fact working against it is harmful, right? Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.
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Sep 25, 2017 03:41
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I mean, if that's the name of the game https://twitter.com/usarsnl/status/857795901791891457
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Sep 25, 2017 03:50
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Ok, but who is saying all of this in this thread?
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Sep 25, 2017 03:51
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I mean, if that's the name of the game these loss edits just keep getting shittier
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Sep 25, 2017 03:52
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am i in dnd
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Sep 25, 2017 03:52
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:I mean, if that's the name of the game 
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Sep 25, 2017 03:55
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You sure love that scarecrow, where was it for that video?
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Sep 25, 2017 03:56
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I am confused who is getting strawmanned Or is the dude just trying to work his weird fetishes into his posts.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:04
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I dunno, but I think it's time to put TVB back on the "lovely Posters In This Thread You Should Ignore" list. Just on principle. Ya know. Junior Jr. and Bravest of the Lamps are getting a bit lonely up there.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:05
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BigRed0427 posted:Ok, but who is saying all of this in this thread? The main thing is that neoliberalism is the driving viewpoint of the 'centrist' crowd of the left. The Bill Clinton/Obama style 'we'll increase imperial acts and absolutely ramjam social programs without any goading, but we'll SAY it's bad a bunch and take pictures with a gay black CEO to prove that actually capitalism is inclusive' was exactly the message of the so called 'pragmatic progressives' in 2016 and, welp. There's a lot more to the 'centrism vs further left' argument than 'LOL PUNCH NAZIS THE DPRK DID NOTHING WRONG' vs 'actually perhaps both sides are bad' garbage. Literally before last week the rallying cry of the DNC was "SINGLE PAYER HEALTHCARE WILL NEVER HAPPEN". The American left is completely pathetic and boiling down criticism of the left to 'centrism' vs literal tankies feels kinda hosed up. The left in America doesn't exist in the functional sense, it's kinda early to start pissing about 'self-sabotage' when the movement hasn't even gone into full swing yet.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:28
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Man I'd put myself on ignore if I could do it
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Sep 25, 2017 04:31
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Man I'd put myself on ignore if I could do it Take a break from the thread in question, I do that sometimes when things heat up.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:32
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what the gently caress does this all have to do with internet criticisms?
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Sep 25, 2017 04:36
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to be clear I think the video is alright, but I can for sure see the annoyance in 'the left' being framed as some kinda zany antifa quasi-tankie when the 'leftist' movement in America has been ground into a fine paste over the last few generations and is only just now being somewhat given a shape that can be worked with.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:37
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sexpig by night posted:I can for sure see the annoyance in 'the left' being framed as some kinda zany antifa quasi-tankie when the 'leftist' movement in America has been ground into a fine paste over the last few generations and is only just now being somewhat given a shape that can be worked with. Yeah, this is the sticking point that's pretty poo poo, and reeks of undermining broader points.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:40
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I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the problem with "Hey, maybe make your points in ways accessible to normal people," TBH. Like, I felt like it was p. clear the entire video was sort of a character piece that showed the pros and cons of both sides in a kind of broad manner. Tabby is much more effective against the nazi and has some good points, but can't effectively communicate them and is too wrapped up in ideological purity; Justine understands how better to communicate with centrists, but at the cost of being way too inclined to accept their milktoast views and habits. It's not a "one side is better" or even a South Park "Both sides are wrong," it's just "Here's some critique of the two camps of leftists."
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Sep 25, 2017 05:37
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I have no idea what you're all talking about, but RLM put up a video of Re:View talking about Joe Versus The Volcano with Josh and Tall Canadian.
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Sep 25, 2017 06:19
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:We're still in the thread where there was an internet reviewer donning exaggerated caricatures about how the status quo is good and in fact working against it is harmful, right? lmao
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Sep 25, 2017 07:11
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I think that video is more about the rhetoric of the burgeoning left than the reality of the movements in the physical sense
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Sep 25, 2017 08:01
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cat doter posted:I think that video is more about the rhetoric of the burgeoning left than the reality of the movements in the physical sense Mhm, it's hard for people who have always been fighting the good fight to accept this sudden influx of people who they, quite rightly, see as bougie morons. I say this as a bougie moron myself. However it is also neccesary to not just blame them and instead create something good people can feel part of. For instance I have never been able to get through much of Marx, but I still think the ideas are interesting and that there are a whole heaping helping of things that need looking at that are not straight Capitalism. It's nice to see a movement I agree with gaining more people as part of it.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:21
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I've been a pretty typical socialist for a good 10 or 11 years now and it just makes me happy to see the sudden influx of people accepting of these ideas, I'm not one of those types having an existentialist crisis that my cool underground politics are being taken over by normies, and while I find some of contra's commentary on the topic to be slightly bougie it's just good to have people in the ahem...marketplace of ideas
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Sep 25, 2017 08:42
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My qualm is less about normies joining and more when organizers/figures sometimes have such a low opinion that they sometimes do things like mock "save your healthcare" events (a jacobin editor did this) or deride local work for not being ambitious enough to be elected.
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Sep 25, 2017 09:27
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that's what I mean though some of these guys are pretty all or nothing types, which I mean I kind of am in a way because incrementalism is extremely easy to dismantle, but I'm less likely to attack newbie socialists or liberals trying to do good work, it doesn't help anyone to mock that stuff you can do more than one thing at a time, it's entirely possible to save the affordable care act and push single payer at the same time
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Sep 25, 2017 09:56
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cat doter posted:I think that video is more about the rhetoric of the burgeoning left than the reality of the movements in the physical sense To me, it comes off more as a goofus and gallant defense of the modern democratic party playing politics with basic human rights kinda thing. Like any sort of push, be it LGBT rights, single payer, whatever, is just unfeasible and politically damaging until the approval ratings for that issue hit the magical number where the entire party can fall over each other to support it.
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Sep 25, 2017 13:35
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Those of you who are zipping rapidly past the garbage politics posts are invited to stop here and listen to this week’s episode of Song Crimes, in which we smoke in the boys’ room, blind each other with science, and work on some night moves. http://songcrimes.libsyn.com/case-file-05-housing-law?tdest_id=568398
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Sep 25, 2017 13:49
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:To me, it comes off more as a goofus and gallant defense of the modern democratic party playing politics with basic human rights kinda thing. Like any sort of push, be it LGBT rights, single payer, whatever, is just unfeasible and politically damaging until the approval ratings for that issue hit the magical number where the entire party can fall over each other to support it. Did you miss the quote where she said it wasn't that at all?
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Sep 25, 2017 14:41
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sexpig by night posted:The main thing is that neoliberalism is the driving viewpoint of the 'centrist' crowd of the left. The Bill Clinton/Obama style 'we'll increase imperial acts and absolutely ramjam social programs without any goading, but we'll SAY it's bad a bunch and take pictures with a gay black CEO to prove that actually capitalism is inclusive' was exactly the message of the so called 'pragmatic progressives' in 2016 and, welp. There's a lot more to the 'centrism vs further left' argument than 'LOL PUNCH NAZIS THE DPRK DID NOTHING WRONG' vs 'actually perhaps both sides are bad' garbage. Literally before last week the rallying cry of the DNC was "SINGLE PAYER HEALTHCARE WILL NEVER HAPPEN". The American left is completely pathetic and boiling down criticism of the left to 'centrism' vs literal tankies feels kinda hosed up. The left in America doesn't exist in the functional sense, it's kinda early to start pissing about 'self-sabotage' when the movement hasn't even gone into full swing yet. I actually legit want to know. How is me thinking Kim Jong Un can go gently caress himself Neoliberalisum?
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Sep 25, 2017 14:44
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BigRed0427 posted:I actually legit want to know. How is me thinking Kim Jong Un can go gently caress himself Neoliberalisum? It's not
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Sep 25, 2017 14:45
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BigRed0427 posted:I actually legit want to know. How is me thinking Kim Jong Un can go gently caress himself Neoliberalisum? I'd adore knowing how you got that from my post but I guess the whole thing where the supposed 'left' in this country still overwhelmingly does things like vote for the billions in military spending increase and sanctions that never do anything but harm regular people in 'enemy' nations is a part of the whole 'we're military imperialists too but woke'?
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Sep 25, 2017 14:52
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As a raging lefty I really appreciate the video and Contrapoints' ability to remain self-critical of her own position. All of her characters are meant to be funny parodies of their positions, and while she is closer to Justine than Tabby here, neither are portrayed entirely sympathetically or unsympathetically. She's not being critical of people that are trying to do the work, but the people that, to use an anecdotal example that happened locally here at a march, yell that capitalism is the "real problem" at a unity rally after a white supremacist march. The "ironic" use of the hammer & sickle is definitely a fraught thing as well that I see all the time. I use the word "comrade" in a few specific contexts in real life pretty freely, but a very close friend of mine coming into socialism relayed to me his discomfort with it because he's got family members who were executed by the party in the People's Republic of China. For me, that doesn't mean completely disavowing the legacy that leftism has, quite the contrary. We have to critically come to grips with it, and not simply embrace it for the aesthetic. I think the one thing that Contra misses though is how the aesthetic parts of burgeoning leftism right now is a large part of the selling factor. A lot of people are joining because unapologetic support for economic and social justice is cool, and I don't think she articulated very well what exactly she means about being ice cold motherfuckers. I think a large portion of what she is responding to as well is the extremely online contingent, as the actual rank and file of people doing the work on the ground are far more understanding of the points she's getting at and I think weren't really represented "fairly" here, but that wasn't really the point of the video either. And considering the Baltimore riots video being extremely good in representing the systemic underlying issues, I definitely think she knows whats up. She identifies as a leftist, not a liberal, even if a "bougie" leftist. She's not some centrist trying to play both sides, a position she has been harshly critical of as well. It's really important, in my opinion, for us to remain self-critical, that was the takeaway I got from this more than anything.
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Sep 25, 2017 15:03
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sexpig by night posted:I'd adore knowing how you got that from my post but I guess the whole thing where the supposed 'left' in this country still overwhelmingly does things like vote for the billions in military spending increase and sanctions that never do anything but harm regular people in 'enemy' nations is a part of the whole 'we're military imperialists too but woke'? Well you responded to me, so I was curiois.
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Sep 25, 2017 15:06
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:To me, it comes off more as a goofus and gallant defense of the modern democratic party playing politics with basic human rights kinda thing. Like any sort of push, be it LGBT rights, single payer, whatever, is just unfeasible and politically damaging until the approval ratings for that issue hit the magical number where the entire party can fall over each other to support it. y'know, like in Victoria 2
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Sep 25, 2017 21:04
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