Majorian posted:

I'm calling them "centrist," because they oppose a politician who is trying to move the party to the left on economic issues. Their motives might be personal, but I doubt they would support moving in an economic justice direction if someone else were heading the effort instead. They want to maintain the Democratic status quo, so calling them centrists is appropriate.

Majorian posted:

If you seriously believe Macron is much better than Le Pen, I'm guessing you're very much insulated from the effects of austerity that have helped fuel the re-rise of fascism.

Taerkar posted:

The 'Perfect is the enemy of good' is how people who agree with 95% of what is claimed to be pure leftism in this thread are labeled as centrist traitors, which is extra funny coming from a group who in 2016 had a general attitude of 'If you don't do everything we want, we're going to go home and not vote! That'll teach you."

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I used to be a centrist but then the political climate lurched so far to the right that now I'm a leftist.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

"But it's slander to criticize white leftists for telling black people they vote wrong! Now, let me explain how the jew and the nazi are more similar than you may think..."

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

So centrism is what you disagree with then?

Mormon Star Wars posted:

This sort of idea comes up frequently - "I agree with 95% of the things you agree with, so why are you still saying that we aren't on the same side?" The problem with it is very obvious: Not all issues are given equally important weights, so most of the "95% I agree with" can be mostly meaningless side issues, and that "5% that I disagree with" can be issues that are vitally important to other people.

I have 4 nephews and 6 nieces who are Arab, we all live in MENA, we go to weddings a lot. They get dragged to weddings and funerals constantly. So yeah, Democrats may agree with me 95% - but at the moment, part of that 5% is supporting wide-ranging interventions and drone programs with the oversight of a sleepy mall security guard, attacking the anti-war movement, etc, so that 5% is pretty god-damned important and has pretty much killed the enthusiasm I've had for the Democratic party since I was 16. I've voted in every election, including midterms, for over a decade.

The same thing applies to other groups.
"I/This candidate agrees with 95% of your views, so you are on the same side" will not convince a trans person if that 5% is "maybe we should legislate bathroom use."
"I/This candidate agrees with 95% of your views, so you are on the same side" will not convince a black person if that 5% is "actually, the way police operate now is perfectly fine."
"I/This candidate agrees with 95% of your views, so you are on the same side" will not convince an LGBT person if that 5% is "now that we've got marriage equality, anything pursuing more rights would be granting special privileges."

You may agree with 95% of what they say, but they 100% will not give a poo poo if your agreement is only on issues of middling importance.

Majorian posted:

No one has said this here.


No, "centrism" is opposition to moving the Democratic Party to the left, and out of its center-right status quo.

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

I don't think i attacked you . I was just pointing out that I didn't agree with your label. I was already defensive and lumped you into a group I shouldn't have. I apologize.

Majorian posted:

No one has said this here.

Majorian posted:

Are you freaking kidding me? After months of Sanders supporters being tarred with spoiling the 2016 election (even though all available evidence suggests that they didn't)? After months of us being cast as secret racists/misogynists?

Majorian posted:

If you seriously believe Macron is much better than Le Pen, I'm guessing you're very much insulated from the effects of austerity that have helped fuel the re-rise of fascism.

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

I've been trying to tell you that it isn't

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Someone needs to tell Majorian.

Mormon Star Wars posted:

This sort of idea comes up frequently - "I agree with 95% of the things you agree with, so why are you still saying that we aren't on the same side?" The problem with it is very obvious: Not all issues are given equally important weights, so most of the "95% I agree with" can be mostly meaningless side issues, and that "5% that I disagree with" can be issues that are vitally important to other people.

I have 4 nephews and 6 nieces who are Arab, we all live in MENA, we go to weddings a lot. They get dragged to weddings and funerals constantly. So yeah, Democrats may agree with me 95% - but at the moment, part of that 5% is supporting wide-ranging interventions and drone programs with the oversight of a sleepy mall security guard, attacking the anti-war movement, etc, so that 5% is pretty god-damned important and has pretty much killed the enthusiasm I've had for the Democratic party since I was 16. I've voted in every election, including midterms, for over a decade.

The same thing applies to other groups.
"I/This candidate agrees with 95% of your views, so you are on the same side" will not convince a trans person if that 5% is "maybe we should legislate bathroom use."
"I/This candidate agrees with 95% of your views, so you are on the same side" will not convince a black person if that 5% is "actually, the way police operate now is perfectly fine."
"I/This candidate agrees with 95% of your views, so you are on the same side" will not convince an LGBT person if that 5% is "now that we've got marriage equality, anything pursuing more rights would be granting special privileges."

You may agree with 95% of what they say, but they 100% will not give a poo poo if your agreement is only on issues of middling importance.

Majorian posted:

In neither of those posts am I telling black people that they were wrong for the way they voted, nor am I saying it's slander to criticize when someone does that. Nice try, though, silly troll.

Koalas March posted:

thank you! I appreciate it a lot. I get heated when people accuse me of shutting them down (when I'm not lol) or putting words in their mouth, because that happens to me, so I make an actual effort to avoid this.

I do shut down racists who won't acknowledge or own up to that they're saying tho. Or like homeboy yesterday who called me a racist stereotype. gently caress them

Condiv posted:

Leftist = let's make sure everyone has healthcare

Rightwing = lets rip away healthcare from everyone but the rich

Centrist = let's let some non rich people have healthcare, but keep healthcare away from a good amount of people

Who choses centrism or the rightwing aside from the immoral?

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

You literally said that a person raised in a non-religious jewish family was as bad or worse than a neo-nazi for jews and minorities as a defense that you were not a stereotype of a tunnel-visioned white leftist.

lol

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

You literally said that a person raised in a non-religious jewish family was as bad or worse than a neo-nazi for jews and minorities

Condiv posted:

Majorian hates Bernie's kids? That doesn't sound right...

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

I get worked up as well, so I appreciate the good nature of the one or two conversations we been able to have. Please keep making GBS threads on the racists as it is hilarious to see.


Guys, we get it, you use centrist as a straw man for all the bad things. you can continue being wrong, and marginalizing people who generally want the same things as you because they choose a label you aren't accepting of, or you can stop and look for allies where you need them. The center needs the left, and the left needs the center. unfortunately I don't think either side is a majority without the other.

Like someone posted earlier it would be great if we were a country with a center party and a left party, but we aren't there yet.

Taerkar posted:

That is certainly true, but what that 5% is that the disagreement on fluctuates on both sides depending upon what two people are being compared. There also seems to be a tendency to treat that 5% as automatically being that core concern of one side or another.

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

I get worked up as well, so I appreciate the good nature of the one or two conversations we been able to have. Please keep making GBS threads on the racists as it is hilarious to see.


Guys, we get it, you use centrist as a straw man for all the bad things. you can continue being wrong, and marginalizing people who generally want the same things as you because they choose a label you aren't accepting of, or you can stop and look for allies where you need them. The center needs the left, and the left needs the center. unfortunately I don't think either side is a majority without the other.

Like someone posted earlier it would be great if we were a country with a center party and a left party, but we aren't there yet.

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Guys, we get it, you use centrist as a straw man for all the bad things. you can continue being wrong,

Radish posted:

Centrism MIGHT work if you had a system that could support three or more parties, and a right wing one that was operating in good faith. However in the current political setup we have in the US that isn't the case so all "centrism" accomplishes is moving country further and further right by capitulating as the right keeps getting more and more openly extreme. If you legitimately for MOST left wing policies that help people you aren't a centrist so don't call yourself something that is just going to cause people to think you are more right wing than you are.

Also if you agree with the Republicans on literally anything you should immediately re-evaluate why you think that.

Majorian posted:

If you seriously believe Macron is much better than Le Pen, I'm guessing you're very much insulated from the effects of austerity that have helped fuel the re-rise of fascism.

RuanGacho posted:

No one should die for lack of means is pretty much the exhibit A here.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

"Yes, Hitler would be bad for the Jews. But think of the holocaust as a downpayment for the jewish people. If the center-left wins, then that would be the truest validation of Hitler. What? No, of course the fact that I am a non-jew living in Australia has no impact on my perspective. This is a sacrifice that the jewish people will gladly make for me."

OtherworldlyInvader posted:

I currently work overnights cleaning and stocking shelves at Walmart. Most of my family still lives in the third world and are desperately envious of my job. My parents were both lucky enough to be first generation college graduates, and have reached a comfortable retirement. I am pretty aware of both how much privilege I have and what kinds of adversity I face compared to others.

The choice between Macron and Le Pen isn't even a question.

OtherworldlyInvader posted:

I currently work overnights cleaning and stocking shelves at Walmart. Most of my family still lives in the third world and are desperately envious of my job. My parents were both lucky enough to be first generation college graduates, and have reached a comfortable retirement. I am pretty aware of both how much privilege I have and what kinds of adversity I face compared to others.

The choice between Macron and Le Pen isn't even a question.

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

I'm oppose the forum's left because I was insulted with "old man" and instantly realized that the same criticism can be applied to Bernie and Trump. Absolutely no self reflection, exhibit A: Majorian.

Condiv posted:

No one said it was. They did say macron is way worse than he has any right to be since he wants to kill workers' rights

Hth

Majorian posted:

If you seriously believe Macron is much better than Le Pen, I'm guessing you're very much insulated from the effects of austerity that have helped fuel the re-rise of fascism.

Taerkar posted:

Yeah, and?

Anyone who uses the 'Everyone can get access to the ER' should be slapped around with the latest version of the Medicare coding guidebook for a few hours.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Submarine Sandpaper posted:

I'm oppose the forum's left because I was insulted with "old man" and instantly realized that the same criticism can be applied to Bernie and Trump. Absolutely no self reflection, exhibit A: Majorian.

Koalas March posted:

thank you! I appreciate it a lot. I get heated when people accuse me of shutting them down (when I'm not lol) or putting words in their mouth, because that happens to me, so I make an actual effort to avoid this.

I do shut down racists who won't acknowledge or own up to that they're saying tho. Or like homeboy yesterday who called me a racist stereotype. gently caress them

Chilichimp posted:

Ol' race-batin' KM, putting racist words in other peoples posts.

And then online stalking herself when someone else's cognitive dissonance beats back their own self awareness.

And then the whole thread crashes down on KM for putting the racism in otherwise perfectly woke posters. "Wosters" if you will.

Majorian posted:

I never said it was a question. Macron was clearly the less awful option. I'll admit I probably understated how much worse Le Pen is than Macron, but Macron's pretty loving terrible.

RuanGacho posted:

I'm saying the 5% here is there are people in the Dem party who respond with "well maybe some is ok" not because of some sort of evil intent but because upsetting the status quo sounds dangerous if you're not vulnerable to that.