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I still don't get why anyone would identify as a centrist
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Sep 25, 2017 19:40
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Taerkar posted:Macron v Le Pen was also an example of how a multi-party system isn't a perfect fix as the more progressive vote got split in a number of directions during the primary and resulted in the final vote being between center-right and crazy-right. A Ranked Ballot. Probably least worst system ever, if somewhat confusing.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:40
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Majorian posted:Kenny Rogers' Wosters. 
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Sep 25, 2017 19:41
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:True centrism, applied as a tactic and not an ideology, would work with two extremes and a center, yes. In practice centrism end up being more about the center of acceptable advocated ideologies, and not the center of the present power structures. Hence why you have people that consider themselves centrist reacting to the labels put forth in this thread. What constitutes an "acceptable advocated ideology?" The current power structure of our two parties defines the American political reality, not some set of ideals. You can't say you are a "centrist" because you personally identify yourself between American Democrats and some European socialist and expect anyone to understand what you believe. Additionally what's even the point of this tactic? You advocate for your goals, not for some compromise. The compromise is the end result you hope you come out the better of, not something you start out trying to achieve because it has some inherent value. As a tactic it's clearly failing as the Democrats, and by extension the country, are in dire straights right now so even as a way of achieving something in exchange for a loss it's failing. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 19:41
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Pembroke Fuse posted:A Ranked Ballot. Probably least worst system ever, if somewhat confusing. Oh I bet it would extremely confusing to most people. I'm honestly not sure (in a terrible way) that that's a bad thing. vvvv: A pox on anyone that slanders the flavor Vanilla. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 19:42
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Condiv posted:I still don't get why anyone would identify as a centrist Vanilla icecream is delicious. Centrism isn't an ideology and you don't identify as it. There isn't a loving code of centrism and there aren't clandestine centrist organizations. You're just a vanilla person with vanilla opinions and beliefs that most people can swallow. Chilichimp fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 19:43
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Condiv posted:In all likelihood macron probably wants to privatize healthcare in France more so more people can die from lack of access to healthcare Nah. He wants a decent increase in spending, a pretty big expansion to cover 100% of dental/vision benefits, and some small reforms. The only major "cuts" he wants is to specialize hospitals in areas with lots of providers. So, one or two hospitals will have a lot of dialysis patients, specialists, and machines instead of 6-8 hospitals each having a few. That could save a lot of money and increase efficiency, but some people will have to travel across town and increase their trip times by 10-25 minutes. quote:Macron’s programme has focused on stepping up disease prevention, ironing out inequalities in access to healthcare, and improving the system’s efficiency. The new president, whose parents are both doctors, has signed legislation to increase public health spending by an annual 2·3% over his 5-year term—slightly more than in recent years—to invest €5 billion in hospitals, primary care, and innovation speed up the merger of hospitals into regional groups, ensure that all so-called useful drugs and devices would continue to be reimbursed, and phase in 100% reimbursement for eyeglasses, dental treatment, and hearing aids by 2022.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:44
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Taerkar posted:Oh I bet it would extremely confusing to most people. I'm honestly not sure (in a terrible way) that that's a bad thing. How's ranked choice voting? I'm p sure people can rank things they like: "vanilla ice cream's my favorite, but chocolate is a near second!"
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Sep 25, 2017 19:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Nah. I don't believe his union busting rear end
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Sep 25, 2017 19:46
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Condiv posted:I don't believe his union busting rear end He literally already signed the legislation for part of it.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:46
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Can the 'Democrats are still a waste' thread be reopened for containment purposes?
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Sep 25, 2017 19:47
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Condiv posted:How's ranked choice voting? I'm p sure people can rank things they like: "vanilla ice cream's my favorite, but chocolate is a near second!" I would expect most voters to only put down one mark and leave all of the other choices blank.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:He literally already signed the legislation for part of it. Cool, he is also forcing union busting poo poo through and pretending he's a Greek god so there's probably some lovely parts of his healthcare policy too
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Sep 25, 2017 19:48
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Pembroke Fuse posted:A Ranked Ballot. Probably least worst system ever, if somewhat confusing. Mathematically, all voting systems have flaws. It has been proven that you can't make a "perfect" voting system. There are always voting values you have to compromise on. For ranked voting (i believe you mean IRV), it fails the Condorcet criterion and can allow a candidate that wins in all 1v1 matches to lose a multiple candidate race. So really the question we need to ask is, which voting criterions do we care about? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_electoral_systems
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Sep 25, 2017 19:51
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Koalas March posted:I may have missed it, but can you explain what makes you a centrist? Like what do you actually believe? My beliefs have evolved quite a bit since i was 18 and first became political. Being raised with a liberal mother and a racist alcoholic father started me with an unhealthy mindset, and I had to work my way out of that hole. I grew up fairly poor, and my mom divorced my dad when i was 1. She worked three jobs and drat near killed herself to get us out of the hellholf of my fathers life. We lived in a women's shelter for a year or more when I was 5 or 6. during that time I was able to see first hand a tiny sliver of the pain that people endure to take care of themselves and their loved ones. It hasn't gotten better for these people since I was there, as the women's shelter was shut down in the late 90's due to lack of funding. The only reason my mother was able to get out and improve things for us is that she won a lawsuit against my father and forced him to pay back child support. We moved into a small apartment and my mom was able to keep us afloat until all her kids moved out and were able to support themselves. Bullet pointing my beliefs is very oversimplified, but I would start with: 1. People are oppressed racially, and economically by the owners of capital, and the systems built in the 180'0's and 1900's that are still with us today. This needs to be changed. It isn't easy to do, but people need help, and the system is grinding them to pieces. 2. Working people are being bled dry, and live paycheck to paycheck (me and my family included.) Upward mobility is dead, and people are losing more ground than they are making up. The systems need to be re-balanced. 3. The institutions that were built to protect people have been captured and rendered useless. They need to be rebuilt and protected from capture. 4. Nuance is dead. All we get are platitudes, and generalities. Nobody wants to deal in specifics anymore. We have to fix this trend of anti-intellectualism that has swept the nation. Public education is being decimated and must be bolstered. 5. People are generally good, but lack the awareness of how they may be bad. they need to be lead to water on these flaws and not browbeaten. there is a line ot that that generally lies around when a person advocates for the persecution of another. After writing that I feel it is accurate, but also woefully inadequate. hope it helps.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:52
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Condiv posted:Cool, he is also forcing union busting poo poo through and pretending he's a Greek god so there's probably some lovely parts of his healthcare policy too Don't you live in France? How did you go from "He probably wants to privatize healthcare" to "Okay, he says good things, but I don't believe him." to "Okay, he has literally signed the legislation expanding coverage already, but he wants to weaken unions so his healthcare policy is probably still bad somehow." I'd at least be mildly interested in keeping up with what is actually happening to my healthcare.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:52
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Condiv posted:I still don't get why anyone would identify as a centrist contracted a terminal case of brainworms at a performance of hamilton
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Sep 25, 2017 19:53
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Centrism is loving stupid because it implies there are two poles of equally valid ideology that need to be balanced against each other, which is baby brain poo poo for people who don't want to do any investigation. Like, name me a moderate version of economic or social policy that isn't immediately improved by making it a more left policy.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Don't you live in France? I just looked it up. He's ripping out the funding mechanisms of securite sociale, so yep, deffo trying to gut and privatize it Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 19:54
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Trabisnikof posted:Mathematically, all voting systems have flaws. It has been proven that you can't make a "perfect" voting system. There are always voting values you have to compromise on. Personally I prefer Single Transferable Vote for selecting multiple representatives, score/range voting for selecting a single office.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:54
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Condiv posted:I still don't get why anyone would identify as a centrist "I'm a Free-Thinking Independent who doesn't let a side determine what I believe in" Edited for FREEDOMS
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Sep 25, 2017 19:56
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Taerkar posted:"I'm an independent thinker who doesn't let a side determine what I believe in" That's not centrism, that's an independent Saying you're a centrist is literally letting two sides determine your beliefs
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Sep 25, 2017 19:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Yes, Hitler would be bad for the Jews. But think of the holocaust as a downpayment for the jewish people. If the center-left wins, then that would be the truest validation of Hitler. What? No, of course the fact that I am a non-jew living in Australia has no impact on my perspective. This is a sacrifice that the jewish people will gladly make for me."  An actual centrist (though not a Centrist) won the 1932 elections thanks to an anti-Hitler political coalition and almost immediately granted chancellorship to Hitler. His government failed to address anything substantial about the Weimar Republic's problems and experienced deep fractiousness over stupid bullshit like half of a percentage point, while lacking to present any real vision for how to fix the system or how to better people's lives. The fascist and communist factions both made large gains under Hindenburg's government thanks in large part to the status quo failing to help people or to offer any real vision. People were pushing back against the communists and handed power again to Hindenburg. We all know how that ended, I hope.Heck Yes! Loam! posted:1. People are oppressed racially, and economically by the owners of capital, and the systems built in the 1800's and 1900's that are still with us today. This needs to be changed. It isn't easy to do, but people need help, and the system is grinding them to pieces. Welcome to the Democratic Socialists of America, Loam. 🌹
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Sep 25, 2017 20:02
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Centrism is anything to the right of Full Communism Now and anything to the left of Full Fascism Now. Luckily as a libertarian I don't fall anywhere in there. I'm a little too smart.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:02
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Centrism as defined by the posters who won't shut up about it isn't actual Centrism.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:02
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Peachfart posted:Can the 'Democrats are still a waste' thread be reopened for containment purposes? Got bad news for you: Waste thread was closed because of this thread. It's here to stay.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:03
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:1. People are oppressed racially, and economically by the owners of capital, and the systems built in the 180'0's and 1900's that are still with us today. This needs to be changed. It isn't easy to do, but people need help, and the system is grinding them to pieces. It seems to me that your self-identification as a centrist is made out of vindictiveness, and not out of holding centrist ideas. Peachfart posted:Centrism as defined by the posters who won't shut up about it isn't actual Centrism. How would you define it?
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Sep 25, 2017 20:03
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Rastor posted:Personally I prefer Single Transferable Vote for selecting multiple representatives, score/range voting for selecting a single office. Yeah my fantasy to remake congress is removing state borders from the congressional redistricting process, allowing rural areas to be represented by 1 congressional seat across multiple states and allowing communities of interest contiguous representation across state lines. Still can use FPTP for ease. The senate would be switched to nationwide PR. With 100 senators, that would set the floor for national representation by a party at ~1%. Giving a huge boost to minority parties and creating the political space for them to flesh out their ideologies and policies. Sure we'd probably end up with a Nazi Party Senator or two, but I think having the open label is better than the status quo where we have Nazi party senators, but they have an (R) instead.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:03
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Doctor Butts posted:Got bad news for you: And the Hillary v Bernie thread. So there's still that thread to post in instead of here.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:05
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Peachfart posted:Can the 'Democrats are still a waste' thread be reopened for containment purposes? I read the waste thread. Separately, I keep a finger on the pulse of r/the_donald for a Trump era archiving site. The differences between the two were vanishingly small, with the "TRAIN GOING 97533789 MILES PER HOUR!" t_d posts being one of the few things not featured in the Waste thread. Where it concerns the seriousposting, both are/were circlejerks of similar flavor for some of the posters.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:07
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Condiv posted:I still don't get why anyone would identify as a centrist Because there's a lot of really lovely posters in the leftist threads. I didn't say it was a good reason.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:08
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Trabisnikof posted:And the Hillary v Bernie thread. So there's still that thread to post in instead of here. that's for primary chat
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Sep 25, 2017 20:09
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Sorry liberals, you are stuck in here with the Leftists now. Just like the Democratic party.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:09
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I still have seen no coherent explanation for what centrism is that is not just a generic set of "goods" assembled together with no coherent economic prescriptions that are not already the purview of the left just watered down for corporate purposes.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:10
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The waste thread was a good containment zone, and even though it leaked into Trump thread occasionally, it didn't get really bad until the last two weeks.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:10
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InnercityGriot posted:I still have seen no coherent explanation for what centrism is that is not just a generic set of "goods" assembled together with no coherent economic prescriptions that are not already the purview of the left just watered down for corporate purposes. It's Samantha Bee.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:10
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Trabisnikof posted:Yeah my fantasy to remake congress is removing state borders from the congressional redistricting process, allowing rural areas to be represented by 1 congressional seat across multiple states and allowing communities of interest contiguous representation across state lines. Still can use FPTP for ease. I'm at the point now where I don't think regional representation is a good thing anymore. While it can avoid the problem of certain voices being ignored, it also can easily create the problem of other voices being marginalized. The balance, IMO, is representing as many people overall as possible.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:11
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We should probably gas this thread or rename it to the new 2016 Democratic Primary Thread.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:11
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Funny part about the more....vile? flavor of attack dog leftism: its not who I actually seem to meet in the real world showing up for protests, showing up outside courthouses and jails, showing up for canvassing for progressives.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:12
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SKULL.GIF posted:
Can I still be a centrist as a member of the DSA? In all honesty i have been looking at some local DSA stuff and thinking about going to a meeting or something. Majorian posted:It seems to me that your self-identification as a centrist is made out of vindictiveness, and not out of holding centrist ideas. Simplistically it is the center between the status quo, and the ideal, but that is inadequate in practice. in practice it ends up being a constant battle between making lasting positive change and not burning it all down.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:17
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