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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Isn't this kind of an odd criticism coming from someone who is employed because of Amazon; whose success and growth is built 100% upon the alter of "competing on prices" and foregoing ambiance and flash in favor of convenience and costs? you also can't blame all retail outlets collectively for market trends over the last half century that can't be attributed to any one individual, source, or even group of organizations. nobody made a conscious decision to kill mom and pop main street retail, it just happened because of a dozen different factors
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Sep 28, 2017 20:27
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Kthulhu5000 posted:So many retail stores feel like shopping in a warehouse, or in some office park suite, or they just seem overly pretentious for the area they're in. Hmm, yes, nice and shiny bookstore...right across from an obviously faded and never updated Arby's restaurant, and right next to some no-name tanning salon that never seems to get any real business.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Isn't this kind of an odd criticism coming from someone who is employed because of Amazon; whose success and growth is built 100% upon the alter of "competing on prices" and foregoing ambiance and flash in favor of convenience and costs? That's my point. Amazon and other e-tailers forewent all the pretense, hassle, uncertainty and overhead of brick-and-mortar retail by going online. This gives them two advantages they can leverage (and leverage hard) - a compression of the shopping process, and an ability to seek out customers nationally (and even internationally). You can waste time in traffic, go elbow-to-elbow with everyone else in a crowded store, and find out the Darth Vader waffle maker you wanted isn't in stock. And if it is in stock, you probably get to wait in line, pay the same or more as online, and then drive back home. Or you can just see if it's in stock on Amazon, enter your card info (or just choose it, if you've already saved it), submit, and wait. And you can do this if you're one of the millions in New York City, or if you live in a "ten people and twenty horses" town in rural Montana (assuming there's postal service in or near it). And conversely, being able to sell to people in both of those places from one site is what give e-tailers their edge. Understocking and overstocking is way less of a concern (unless the product is just absolute crap no one wants to buy), because you can hunt for customers to buy merchandise everywhere. Those pallets of Darth Vader waffle makers go into the same warehouse as the diapers (lord do we handle a lot of diaper boxes) and flat-screen TVs, and it's just a matter of logistics management at that point. So in light of that, what can brick-and-mortar chains do but change their mindset and focus more on the physical experience (even if it involves some improvising rather than referring to a three-ring binder of strict guidelines), the sensory experience, whatever the gently caress, in order to compete? Xaris posted:Counterpoint: Costco is literally a warehouse and is my favorite place to shop (sans all the disneyland-esque space mountain crowds at all hours of the day, which means its doing insanely well) Sure. I have nothing against Costco, but I don't shop there regularly because I don't have the space for or any real need to buy 144 rolls of toilet paper or five pounds of cashews in one trip. They're niche, and they execute in their niche well, partly by focusing on making it seem interesting to shop there. Trader Joe's (where I do like to shop) can be the same way, since there's often something new and interesting to see. Retail's focus should be on making customers realize dreams they didn't know they had (such as a five pound tub of cashews for $14.99 plus tax), just as much as it should be on meeting their needs. One can debate the merits of this sort of consumerist/materialist thinking, but in the context of American retail and capitalism (ostensibly), it might be a way forward. fishmech posted:But the actual residents of whatever foreign land are just going to their own countries' chains and such for a lot of their shopping in reality. Sure. Those markets aren't the sole source for those people, but the general idea and vibe behind showcasing them is what I believe American retailers should be striving for. Maybe what's old should become new again. boner confessor posted:you also can't blame all retail outlets collectively for market trends over the last half century that can't be attributed to any one individual, source, or even group of organizations. nobody made a conscious decision to kill mom and pop main street retail, it just happened because of a dozen different factors Sure. But this isn't about mom and pop main street retail, it's about the big lumbering retail behemoths getting their lunch eaten (unless I have this whole thread all wrong) by online competition on one side, and through mismanagement on the other (lookin' at you, Sears!) Edge & Christian posted:None of the stuff in here can be set at the foot of any one location (or one company or one market or one city) but this one is kind of insane. Not to beat a dead horse but I run a single-location retail location with a lot of thought put towards "customer experience" and design and ambience as much as I possibly can, and that in itself is a struggle, and now it's also a problem when a fuckin' Subway franchisee buys the location across the street? With all due respect - do you have neighboring independent businesses? Do you all have a sense of common cause and vision about why you're there? Or are you all doing your own thing (even if you're not actually competing with each other in terms of goods)? "Unionization" isn't just something for employees; there's a reason why chambers of commerce and the like exist. And my complaint isn't so much about not wanting to shop at a store because there's some dud fast-food restaurant near it; rather, if all you've got is some nice glass and fresh sign and nothing else that suggests there's any kind of vibe going on, I (and other customers) are just going to shrug and buy on Amazon. Only 24 hours in the day; no point in wasting them in a location that just seems dead and lifeless when there are other things that are more pressing or fun to do. It sounds subtle and intangible and maybe it is to a degree (so my opinions probably aren't that useful for you), but this 2004 TED Talk video with James Howard Kunstler makes some good points about how the architecture and physical atmosphere of a location can undermine how people relate to it: https://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_dissects_suburbia Edge & Christian posted:I can't control what other retailers move in and out of the neighborhood, and I can't really adjust my level of pretentiousness on the fly month to month as new places open and close. From your description it sounds like you're thinking more of suburban strip malls and not actual urban zoning, but as it stands there are parts of NYC (and I assume most urban areas, unless they've got some crazy zoning restrictions) you're bound to have a Tiffany's across the street from a 7-11 and vice versa. Yes, I'm thinking more of suburban strip malls, because that's the retail case for large swaths of the country. I'm pretty sure it's been discussed in this very thread how suburban development seems to be tossing a bunch of homes in one spot, trying to drop in some big box stores in another as anchors in another, and letting a scattering of independent businesses try and set up shop in the retail space that remains. And those "dead mall" videos on Youtube highlight how this big drab retail box model is rather shaky these days. That all said, I wish you good luck and good fortune with your business.
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Sep 28, 2017 21:57
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Kthulhu5000 posted:It sounds subtle and intangible and maybe it is to a degree (so my opinions probably aren't that useful for you), but this 2004 TED Talk video with James Howard Kunstler makes some good points about how the architecture and physical atmosphere of a location can undermine how people relate to it: no offense but kunstler is a huge crank who really should just stick to architecture critiques. his arguments against suburbia aren't exactly wrong on a technical level but they rely heavily on the romanticism of a rough, artisinal past. he's a hipster before his time. i saw him do this speech when he came to my university, he would raise some good points about urban psychogeography and then veer off into peak oil and soldiers dying for bush's oil profits which, while again not wrong, is an odd diversion when talking about the construction of places boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Sep 28, 2017 |
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Sep 28, 2017 21:59
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Kthulhu5000 posted:With all due respect - do you have neighboring independent businesses? Do you all have a sense of common cause and vision about why you're there? Or are you all doing your own thing (even if you're not actually competing with each other in terms of goods)? "Unionization" isn't just something for employees; there's a reason why chambers of commerce and the like exist. Uh, chambers of commerce mostly existed so that town powerbrokers could bully out people they don't like. If you seriously think small retailer camaraderie was a real thing for most of history, you're hopelessly naive. Also there's nothing particularly worthwhile about being an "independent" business because you're still going to be selling tons of stuff from large companies anyway, or you're not going to be the sort of store people go to frequently.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:00
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The legitimate business reason LBOs are a thing, assuming the acquirer genuinely believes they can turn the target company into a well-performing business, is because you get a better return on each dollar invested using leverage rather than your own money/capital, and that's the only metric that matters.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:09
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boner confessor posted:no offense but kunstler is a huge crank who really should just stick to architecture critiques. his arguments against suburbia aren't exactly wrong on a technical level but they rely heavily on the romanticism of a rough, artisinal past. he's a hipster before his time. i saw him do this speech when he came to my university, he would raise some good points about urban psychogeography and then veer off into peak oil and soldiers dying for bush's oil profits which, while again not wrong, is an odd diversion when talking about the construction of places Sounds about right for a university speaker (and many professors), in my experience. But yeah, I figure there has been the inevitable undermining of his views in the 13 years since that video was made. That said, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a small kernel of an idea that a building's design should be conceived as being an important and relevant location in a community or city for the next fifty years or century (basically timeless, at least in human lifespans and attention spans), rather than some utilitarian box that only looks OK in the immediate moment and then becomes more outdated and lifeless-seeming as time goes on (as has happened to many dying malls from the 1980s and 1990s, that didn't or couldn't try to keep up). It's building "body language", basically. Just as we all write people off based on how they dress, walk, act, and so on...well, the same applies to buildings and businesses. If there doesn't seem to be any sign of life to them, we assume that's the case and walk on by. fishmech posted:Uh, chambers of commerce mostly existed so that town powerbrokers could bully out people they don't like. If you seriously think small retailer camaraderie was a real thing for most of history, you're hopelessly naive. Pretty much, but if you're an independent business, you're going to want to find any edge you can...right? But my point isn't "camaraderie", where Mary Jane trades muffins to Computer Man Hank so he can troubleshoot her POS system and they have happy conversations every morning that verge on light flirting and they give a poo poo about each other personally. It's more about solidarity, local interest, not treating your business like it operates in a singular void untouched and unphased by what's around it. And part of that is talking with neighboring businesses, seeing how they're doing, trying to figure out how to keep the whole ship afloat. If solidarity and mutual support for a combined cause is considered good for addressing social concerns, it's equally good for business ones, too. fishmech posted:Also there's nothing particularly worthwhile about being an "independent" business because you're still going to be selling tons of stuff from large companies anyway, or you're not going to be the sort of store people go to frequently. OK?
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Sep 28, 2017 22:31
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Kthulhu5000 posted:Sounds about right for a university speaker (and many professors), in my experience. sure but it has little to do with retail, the architectural soullessness kunstler likes to decry started when big box retail did and they flourished together for four decades. it's pretty hard to argue against the agnosticism of americans when it comes to architectural design being a contributor to the retail experience
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Sep 28, 2017 22:37
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Kthulhu5000 posted:
Buddy you're talking about, like, that things should be like a 1950s sitcom version of a small town, not anything that ever actually existed. Or maybe a romantic comedy. Here's an idea: stop being upset that retail doesn't match a world that never existed, and never will exist.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:43
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fishmech posted:Buddy you're talking about, like, that things should be like a 1950s sitcom version of a small town, not anything that ever actually existed. Or maybe a romantic comedy. this is really what i was getting at but more politely by calling kunstler a crank who advocates a rosy view of small town america
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Sep 28, 2017 22:45
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Like people in retail in the old small towns 100 years ago would get close sure. But that was because you were in a town of maybe 400 people with, let's say, another 1200 people or so on nearby farms (and perhaps mines or other extractive business) that relied on said town as their primary place to shop and do business, due to it being the most accessible town for that purpose. If you actively didn't fit in and get friendly with the town and your neighbors they could make your life a living hell or even force you out of town. And maybe you would actually do some light services bartering when necessary because the town and its surrounding population weren't really enough to sustain full time service for many things and so otherwise getting the things done might mean calling someone all the way out from the closest larger town - but it's not like you could just rely on that. And incidentally that whole sort of thing died out starting about that time because being a small family farmer just wasn't staying economically viable (let alone when major events like the Dust Bowl ravaged land, or the depression really cratered all sorts of demand and the vital ability for farmers to get credit until crops could come in, etc), so a bunch of people start moving up to cities or larger towns for other work, that decreases the general business catchment reach of the small town's shops, and improved transport means even people who stay around can now more reliably go down the county seat or other larger town to do their business instead of settling for who's closest by. And of course other small towns were close enough to cities that they instead formed nuclei for suburban expansion, and just kinda got swallowed into the city's orbit in a way that hadn't been previously. That similarly hurt a lot of the reason to go to the random mom & pop shop. The reason I bring up the 1910s small town is that after all that's the childhood/young adulthood people making media in the 1950s would call back to when they were making their Leave It To Beavers or what have you that were set in the modern day.
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Sep 28, 2017 22:58
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boner confessor posted:sure but it has little to do with retail, the architectural soullessness kunstler likes to decry started when big box retail did and they flourished together for four decades. it's pretty hard to argue against the agnosticism of americans when it comes to architectural design being a contributor to the retail experience True, but as the old saw goes, "Past performance does not indicate future trends." When your retail alternatives were driving around to multiple locations in your town or city, having to go to the big stores in a neighboring major city, or deal with the wait and hassles of old-school mail-order, then big box stores and malls were probably a godsend because it was all one-stop shopping, more or less. And thus, it would make sense to pare down architecture to be as generic as possible, in order to maximize building functionality and business potential. Function over form, and that's not a wholly wrong way to do things when social and economic circumstances converge to give you an edge that you can exploit. It set the tone for an area; there's your anchor Sears, maybe there's an anchor grocery store on the other side, fast-food franchises operating in the periphery of the parking near the road, and then the mall has all the niche shops and services that aren't already met by the anchor stores. Synergy! Basically, it was all heavily designed for utilitarian purposes (in my view), and it affected the surrounding area the same way a hog corpse rendering plant or pulp mill does - it exists for an obvious and maybe even necessary purpose, and there is maybe something a little awe-inspiring and majestic about the sheer scope and breadth and seeming complexity of it all. But you don't hang around it longer than you have to unless you can't go anywhere else, you have nothing better to do, or you work there. And now, when people have the option to get potentially everything they want in the comfort of their own home (a place they hopefully like) between Amazon, Ebay, the online stores of existing brick-and-mortar retailers, and who knows how many other ways...well, like a rendering plant or pulp mill, they're just eyesores. Worse than that, actually, because at least those facilities are probably doing enough useful work to justify their existence. Otherwise, the whole reason for drab big box installations to exist, as a means of providing retail space and services, is now often heavily diminished or moot (unless they're lucky enough to be in a high traffic area with enough lingering sentimental attachment; see Lloyd Center in Portland, Oregon or Washington Square on the outskirts of that city). I live in that metro area, which is why they come to mind. I actually live kind of close to the latter, but I've been there maybe twice in ten years, and one of those times was to do an in-store pickup of an online order. All that retail that I and lots of other people can't be bothered to check out 99% of the time, because it's already typecast as being less preferable than ordering online. Admittedly, I'm probably an outlier, being a goon, working for Amazon (bias!), and not having a general interest in buying new poo poo all the time. But retail, at least for where I live, needs to step up its game if it's not something like a grocery store (a necessity), a liquor store (state-controlled distribution and retail), or something that doesn't serve an obvious.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:24
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I'm sorry but are you saying, as you seem to be implying, that older retail architecture was NOT cookie-cutter, generic as possible, function over form? That they weren't drab utilitarian forms unremarkable to the average person? Fancy stores with particularly rich owners got extra ornamentation sure, especially in upscale large cities where the the population and business could support poo poo. But the typical retail store was as generic as everything else on the street.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:32
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fishmech posted:Buddy you're talking about, like, that things should be like a 1950s sitcom version of a small town, not anything that ever actually existed. Or maybe a romantic comedy. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. It's quite the reverse, actually. Edge & Christian took umbrage at the notion that the neighboring retail environment could still drag their business down despite their best efforts (the "Subway franchisee opening one of their vomitous yellow and green I could be off-kilter, but if they don't like it, they have options (even if it might seem like bullying or trying to shut out people). And I don't appreciate the dismissive tone, because this kind of reply could easily be turned around for anything - "Stop being upset about things that will never change!", in regards to injustice or oppression and so on, and misunderstanding (intentionally or otherwise) to try and shut things up that might make you uncomfortable or that seem unorthodox. boner confessor posted:this is really what i was getting at but more politely by calling kunstler a crank who advocates a rosy view of small town america gently caress small towns. I have no romanticism for them. I won't deny that maybe I'm verging into some kind of urban romanticism and thinking about how to revitalize suburbia, but that's not a major thought crime. So maybe I want a bright, shiny, dynamic society everywhere, and not just in little boutique gentrified districts that the original residents and anyone not making some multiple of the national median income can't afford to live in. And maybe that's just silly dreaming and wishing on my part, but hey - what are your ideas on how to fix the woes of the American retail industry, in light of the Amazon juggernaut that will happily steamroll it? fishmech posted:Small town stuff Again, I have no idea where you get this notion that I'm all about small town bullshit. Maybe "chamber of commerce" wasn't the right term, but I have no idea why the idea of small, independent businesses working together seems like anathema to you.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:37
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Kthulhu5000 posted:gently caress small towns. I have no romanticism for them. I won't deny that maybe I'm verging into some kind of urban romanticism and thinking about how to revitalize suburbia, but that's not a major thought crime. you're not verging into this fantasy, you've dug into it and nested personally i don't really disagree with you because i'm having trouble grasping what exactly you're trying to articulate here, it seems like a lot of gauzy wistfulness without much of an actual proposal beyond "things should be nicer and with more attention to detail, but, like, in a non-elitist way"
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Sep 28, 2017 23:38
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Kthulhu5000 posted:I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. It's quite the reverse, actually. Edge & Christian took umbrage at the notion that the neighboring retail environment could still drag their business down despite their best efforts (the "Subway franchisee opening one of their vomitous yellow and green No I really don't think the guy operating a small time shop has the option of chasing out another store nearby because weirdos like you get mad that its present. If they had that option they would be the landlord, not the shopowner, frankly. But what you're doing is directly following the old small town romanticizing cliches, bro. You keep circling back to the stereotypical idealized view of early 20th century small towns that comes forward in mid 20th century pop culture, the pure Good Old Ways that came before the supposedly bad New Ways. You're not talking about reivtalizing suburbia, you're talking about building a Disney's Main Street Experience - we've seen how that poo poo works out, those shopping centers are awful. I'm again getting the notion you're all about small town bullshit because you said: Kthulhu5000 posted:But my point isn't "camaraderie", where Mary Jane trades muffins to Computer Man Hank so he can troubleshoot her POS system and they have happy conversations every morning that verge on light flirting and they give a poo poo about each other personally. It's more about solidarity, local interest, not treating your business like it operates in a singular void untouched and unphased by what's around it. Like this is straight up, as I said, out of traditional small town romantic ideals of the mid last century. I guess perhaps you don't even realize it consciously but it's right there. And yeah no poo poo "chamber of commerce" isn't what you mean because what you mean is small time businesses irrationally trying to bully away the supposed undesirables that they probably don't even have a problem with. It's just weirdos like you who get upset that there would be chains around. It's also kinda weird to assume that a bunch of small businesses should necessarily have allied interests, by the way.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:45
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I guess from my perspective I'm not really sure what you think "small independent businesses working together" can do? We absolutely have something that is a neighborhood chamber of commerce under a different title, and local businesses cooperate for community events and street fairs and "summer strolls" and other activities throughout the year. We partner and promote each other when possible. None of this gives us the power to prevent chains from renting in our area, or cycles of "wait a minute why are there five [sushi/coffee/taco/sports bar/wine bar/salons] opening up in a ten block area this spring?" or whatever else, because we don't have the ability to "bully" building owners or whatever. This isn't something I take lightly as a consumer or a retailer, and I'm not really sure what you're saying other than "shopping sucks, ordering online is better" outside of I guess "you can try to be really really really cool by some ineffable definition, maybe then it's okay" which might in fact be the reality, but it's also a lot of words to say that. Ironically the majority of the things we sell in my brick and mortar location are unique to that brick and mortar location (and our website) and one of my projects this month is to integrate all of those listings to show up on Amazon.
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Sep 28, 2017 23:45
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Kthulhu5000 posted:You can waste time in traffic, go elbow-to-elbow with everyone else in a crowded store, and find out the Darth Vader waffle maker you wanted isn't in stock. And if it is in stock, you probably get to wait in line, pay the same or more as online, and then drive back home. It's not even Darth Vader waffle makers. It's things like bathing suits. God help you if something becomes a seasonal item out of season. I was just unable to buy a bathing suit, after visiting a Fred Meyer, Ross, Marshalls, and a mall. Indoor pools are thing bastards.
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Sep 29, 2017 00:30
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this thread is really surreal to me because australia is still a few years out from our big retail crash (it's definitely coming, retail's been on a slow downward trend for about ten years and amazon just launched here so that'll kill it) and they're actually still building and developing shopping malls. i'm trying to get one step ahead and thinking about my future applications to council to make use of a defunct mall, their loss will hopefully be my gain (i want to take the roof off and convert it into an enormous enclosed park)
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Sep 29, 2017 03:02
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boner confessor posted:you're not verging into this fantasy, you've dug into it and nested That's probably a reasonable assessment. But it's not really so much for me, personally, as it just my view of how mass retail (which, judging from the thread title and the talk I've seen here, seems to be the topic at hand) needs to adapt to try and survive. Don't just sell poo poo; sell an experience, a vibe, something that seems genuine. Make your business interesting. Yeah, that's probably oxymoronic, but welcome to capitalist and corporate America. If you're already struggling in this weird world we now live in, it might mean that it's better to try risky and weird maneuvers than it is to be stoically rational while everything crashes and burns, anyway. Otherwise, this whole thread might as well be moot and we can resolve it with the conclusion that large national and regional retail chains are hosed and doomed to wither away (or exist as husks of their former selves in retail no man's lands) while Amazon and the like get rapacious free reign of the American retail landscape. Yay for capitalism, screw the small fry and the dead dinosaurs, THE END. fishmech posted:No I really don't think the guy operating a small time shop has the option of chasing out another store nearby because weirdos like you get mad that its present. If they had that option they would be the landlord, not the shopowner, frankly. That quoted bit...no, I don't want a Mayberry handjob store like on Disneyland's Main street. Let me just define what I'm talking about. It'll probably make you and everyone else groan because you will all think "Yeah, no loving duh", but let's see... I think I gave a pretty example regarding Costco; if a business can "surprise" customers by offering something even mildly novel that they didn't realize they wanted (like a giant tub of cashews or a 64-pack of fruit snacks at a good price), then that creates a positive association that keeps the business going through good times and bad in aggregate. More than that, customer expectations should be managed with gradual change in both directions. It's not just removing and introducing merchandise, layout changes, or brand image updates; it's about the functioning of a store, of trying to maintain employee headcount, of not conveying a sense that the company is doomed and that a store is going to close in six months (even if, realistically, it just might if the company's situation doesn't change). Basically, continuing to spend money to hopefully make money. And this is important, I think, because the status of a store becomes reflective of the regular customer base's self-image. Even though brand loyalty and the idea of positive self-identification with a particular business seems stupid and silly to the cynical DnD crowd (and even I think so rationally, despite talking it up right now), it's obviously a thing. As Xaris wrote in this very thread a couple posts up: Xaris posted:Counterpoint: Costco is literally a warehouse and is my favorite place to shop (sans all the disneyland-esque space mountain crowds at all hours of the day, which means its doing insanely well) (Xaris, would you be willing to elaborate on what you like about Costco specifically? And would it be safe to assume that the reverse of those specifics would diminish your view of the company?) If customers negatively associate themselves with a store chain (because cleanliness and organization have slipped, there are fewer employees to keep things moving, and so on), then that creatives a cycle of negative reinforcement - customers will stay away and spread a negative impression to others. This will send a chain into a tailspin that they can't pull out of. That's really what I'm driving at here. That's what big American brick-and-mortar retail has to figure out how to gain and hold onto in the new retail landscape, by implementing new methods based on the principles I just outlined. Because signs currently suggest that they're not going to successfully compete with Amazon just by cost-cutting and trying to scrape the bottom of the customer base barrel. I guess my specific twist is that big retailers have to find their specific twists to diversify with what they already have in place, make themselves seem especially "voluntarily essential" to consumers in new ways beyond doing conventional stuff extremely well. Companies need to figure out the rational branching possibilities of what they do, that are far out beyond the obvious. "Voluntarily essential" means the voluntary association with a store brand or chain as being "essential" to their existence. Conversely, "involuntarily essential" applies as a term to those associations that are involuntary in nature (eg. if you're desperately hungry, any store selling food will probably suffice to meet your shopping needs) and that people have a neutral or negative impression of. An idea: what if Costco (not that they're struggling, last I checked) did something like sponsor celebrity BBQ chefs to open air restaurants on regular and constant year-round tours around the country, serving dinner to the public using Costco ingredients, grills, and all that? poo poo, maybe they've already done that in some form? This serves as advertising to create buzz around Costco's products, but the rotating of the chefs (and their assumedly different but delicious methods) is the key. You were probably going to hit up Costco at some soon point for stuff you need or want, anyway, so why not get some delicious BBQ while you're there? Amazon can't give you that! well, maybe they can, at Whole Foods now - but it would be expensive and probably have a prissy salad or six in the mix. That would give a physical retail chain a definite leg up in red America - the store for real meat-eating 'Muricans, not a bunch of elitist pinko wimps. Or a wild and probably bad idea: what if Costco, Wal-Mart and those other chains that allow RV parking in their lots basically formalized the idea into ultra-economy RV parks with hookups and all, during another great recession? It would create clusters of regular customers, parking their camping rigs comfortably and legally (local ordinances permitting...or not) and being a steady stream of store revenue every day. Not exactly thrilling or comfortable as a concept, I bet, but this thread is about the plight of retailus economicus, not human qualms. And of course, all of this is contingent on CEOs actually seeing a vision for the companies they lead beyond the profit report for next quarter or the golden speedboat they'll roar away on as their respective Titanics sink. The former can't be reliably granted. Edge & Christian posted:This isn't something I take lightly as a consumer or a retailer, and I'm not really sure what you're saying other than "shopping sucks, ordering online is better" outside of I guess "you can try to be really really really cool by some ineffable definition, maybe then it's okay" which might in fact be the reality, but it's also a lot of words to say that. That would be a good summation, probably. I do like to commit the sin of verbosity, obviously. And it would be wise for me to differentiate between chains (e.g. Barnes and Noble and other particularly niche retailers) and their bland attempts at trying to seem more classy and atmospheric physically, compared to the travails of the small business owner who is likely to be more constrained in dealing with changing circumstances and events (like the oversaturation you mentioned). I guess my example was more that, putting a gloss of paint on a big chain store alone when the surrounding business environment is obviously flat or run down just...clashes, I guess? A business "uncanny valley" (don't even touch this, fishmech) that doesn't impress, doesn't inspire, and doesn't reinvigorate anything about a business, because the failing core fundamentals are still present. And I'm saying that store's chain thus needs a total 360 degree cycle (turn around and then back again) of changing how they operate, what they're about, of why they exist. If retail corporations are "people" in the eyes of the law, then they have to do some serious self-reflection or perish. Otherwise, if you're already doing OK, then a new Subway or Arby's or whatever doesn't really matter. Since, obviously, people know about you and want what you're offering, right? And new businesses opening up, even if they're gross sub sandwich chains, are probably a good sign for your local area and your business in general. So I guess, in light of my comments about aesthetics and atmosphere, I can sum it up like this: You don't get to easily make a second impression, as a business. If customers are already disinterested in what you're offering now, then it means you have twice the hill to climb to turn that around and make them interested and enthusiastic again. Token moves (shiny new glass front, fresh lettering, that trend of chic logo simplification to rebrand with) won't dig you out. That's no doubt obvious to you, but is it to the CEOs of the big retailers (assuming they even really give a poo poo)? That's the $10 million question, with a lot riding on how it's answered. Also, when you're selling on Amazon and your stuff comes through my center, I'll try to handle it extra gently. BrandorKP posted:It's not even Darth Vader waffle makers. It's things like bathing suits. God help you if something becomes a seasonal item out of season. I was just unable to buy a bathing suit, after visiting a Fred Meyer, Ross, Marshalls, and a mall. Hmm, I didn't think of that, but it does make sense. And it's the advantage that Amazon has, and which conventional retailers don't, that I mentioned before: they can stock stuff indefinitely because they have a near limitless base of potential customers, while brick-and-mortar stores have to make space as seasons change. So maybe that tiger print Speedo was last year's thing, but you know what? Someone, in this nation of ~318 million people, might still want it. But going down to the regional, city, district level? Things get a bit more shaky to sell, if you're a brick-and-mortar store.
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Sep 29, 2017 03:02
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Amazon is an absolute nightmare to shop for specialty items. They don't curate at all, they have no protections against knockoffs, misleading item listings, and scammy resellers. They have a terrible, cluttered, sluggish UI and garbage search functions that can't even do obvious things like figure out if you search "headphones" you probably want headphones and not, say, a six-foot vinyl wall decal of a picture of headphones.
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Sep 29, 2017 03:09
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Kthulhu5000 posted:That quoted bit...no, I don't want a Mayberry handjob store like on Disneyland's Main street. Let me just define what I'm talking about. It'll probably make you and everyone else groan because you will all think "Yeah, no loving duh", but let's see... Ok so you want stores to do what they always do with merchandise positioning in stores. And there's pretty much always gradual changes in any store that hasn't run into a sudden financial crisis. So... stores already do what you want. I'm not sure what you want to change? The only stuff you propose as a change was stuff that was buying into the idealized small town commercial district that never existed. And a vague complaint about stores looking too "drab" and "generic" but that's how stores have been all over time, just what's drab and generic in another decade will look different to today's.
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Sep 29, 2017 03:11
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I think I've said it before itt but Amazon is a pretty good demonstration of the fact that there is such a thing as too much choice.fishmech posted:Ok so you want stores to do what they always do with merchandise positioning in stores. TBF stores from the 1890s or whatever probably did look generic at the time, but people think they look cool now so I can see how someone would think that older stores were also thought to look cool at the time.
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Sep 29, 2017 03:11
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btw fishmech, you're both right and wrong about small-town shopkeepers chasing away other businesses. a few years ago my family opened a jewellery shop in a very insular small town that we were newcomers to. although we did scrape together enough that we could have made a go of it if we wanted to, we only managed that because we're very good at our game - we're multigenerational shopkeepers so we know what we're doing, our stock is excellent, unique enough that we have a niche that amazon et al hasn't broken into yet, and well-priced, and the town has an entrenched upper class with loads of money and no other jewellery shops offering stuff of our calibre - and in the end we moved on after a year because the atmosphere among our neighbours was so hostile and vicious that it just wasn't worth it to stay. like i'm talking false stories about our jewellery all being fake and smear campaigns about my mother. totally unprovoked - we were adding value to the town by being there, we weren't competing with anyone, we were friendly and open and offering them a great product for a great price, but they absolutely hated us and did not want us in their town and in the end we left because of it. so they can't kick other businesses out, but they can sure as hell make them leave. on the other hand, retail giants like subway, the supermarkets and big w (kind of like our walmart) also get hate and often their managers also get the political bullshit that we did unless they're someone already popular in town. the retail clique doesn't want them either, but in this case they can't drive them out because they physically take over a huge chunk of the town's prime real estate and because the working class, which is still 99% of the population in a rural town, doesn't give a poo poo about the boutique shops' in-fighting and just buys what they can afford, inevitably from the giants. small chains can be smoked out like we were, but once a megacorp has decided that a town's financially viable there is nothing on earth that can get them out. basically, small-town shopkeepers have more passive aggressive power than you might realise, but as soon as a business moves in whose ceo is in sydney and doesn't give a poo poo what people in the bumfuck outback are saying about his sex life, that power is gone. it's a small detail in the ongoing retail apocalypse, but an interesting one, and i have a perspective on it that most goons don't because i've actually been run out of town on a rail by a pack of bleached blonde homewares saleswomen who then published nasty poems about my mother in the local newspaper
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Sep 29, 2017 03:24
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everything you've ever heard about small town politics is true btw, it's all true, i lived the nightmare ask me anything
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Sep 29, 2017 03:37
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Oh yeah when I was talking about chambers of commerce and similar groups operating with near impunity, I was talking mostly the American early 20th century. Chain stores in small towns weren't much a threat, it'd be hard to justify expansion in that way at the time. They certainly wouldn't have held up against those with bankrolling from the nearest Real city.
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Sep 29, 2017 04:17
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Amazon is an absolute nightmare to shop for specialty items. They don't curate at all, they have no protections against knockoffs, misleading item listings, and scammy resellers. They have a terrible, cluttered, sluggish UI and garbage search functions that can't even do obvious things like figure out if you search "headphones" you probably want headphones and not, say, a six-foot vinyl wall decal of a picture of headphones. I agree with you on that, actually. The site interface is way too drat full and disorganized for its own good, and I don't envy anyone who has to try and make changes to it. It's probably like having your hand half-on the red button, with a screwup meaning that the Mother's Day gift suggestions all direct to the famed 55 gallon drum of bulk sex lube. But in you mentioning specialty items and Amazon, it did occur to me that there is one fairly prominent specialty good that Amazon might not ever get a good grip on, and that's the traditional clothing of various cultures, especially in the retail scene within immigrant and diaspora communities that is already established to meet their needs. fishmech posted:Ok so you want stores to do what they always do with merchandise positioning in stores. Everything I said has to be considered in the context of economically troubled and distressed retailers. If a retailer's doing fine for now, then they should probably continue what they're doing since it's working. It's also not about what I personally want here; don't conflate what you think I'm wanting with what a hypothetical human (or, writ large, 318 million of them) that I'm talking about want, in the aspect of American retailers not seeming to meet that want and suffering economically for it. What you see as just basic promotion is true - for now. But evolution occurs in everything. That fancy-seeming BBQ promotion, developed into an expected local institution among "Red America", could become an extension of Costco's food court revenue, with the decor and ambiance evolving it into a more conventional BBQ chain...and beyond! Man, I'm feeling oldschool SA writing this. It is "serious" idle speculation, and feel free to sub in or modify names and events as you wish or need. I hope it all gives you a fun laugh in these dreary times, if nothing else: ZaiCostco: A Costco Fan Fiction Dedicated to fishmech Once Costco eases up on the novelty of rotating elite BBQ pitmasters, as will inevitably happen because of corporate profit prerogative, their novelty open-air BBQ service will have evolved into something more like a conventional BBQ joint, a new revenue-generating division of the Costco parent company. They'll have morphed into both a retail and restaurant corporation, albeit probably unintended at first. At this point, the economic engine at the heart of the restaurant division will have run out of initial gas (no more rotating celebrity pitmasters, likely, instead going the Applebees route). But Costco would then have free license to build on their restaurant-focused evolution to diversify and branch out some more. BBQ everywhere, and now Cuban food in Miami storestaurants, pizza in the New York City area, Mexican in the Southwest...um, hard-pressed to think of what regional thing the Pacific Northwest could have. Pine needles? The logical step, now that they have their current food court, various restaurants, and the diverse merchandise they already sell would be to essentially recreate some mutant form of today's mall, likely with the same multi-story layout as such, and maybe keeping their core retail business in a ground or sub-basement at all locations. Again, probably not intended at the beginning, but reborn From some deeply embedded meme, evolved from centuries of merchant trading experience passed down through family blood. This leads to a morphosis into some weird retail-restaurant-real estate corporate hybrid (or hydra). "Real estate?", you might ask. Yep; let's consider that Costco is now working, quite literally, with vertically elevated stores. And that can lead to highrises, and speculation for residential and business real estate within them. Costco zaibatsu rising, adapting to an increasingly crowded, increasingly urban environment. And just as Amazon's current advantage is selling "nationwide" via the Web and centrally dispatching goods to customers, Costco's advantage at this point would be their physical presence (and this is as some giant, grotesque hydra of a company chewing at every economic pie it sees, not the friendly members club retail giant we currently know and love). And this would especially be true if current trends of urbanization and climate change hold. Besides current drivers of urbanization and geographical economic andwealth concentration, climate change refugees from other parts of the country would be a prime driver of it too. And where, between current living space, logistics, infrastructure and other concerns, would they be likely to congregate? In and near the suburban outskirts of major cities, where there might still be open space, regular resupply, and where Costco's current success has been prominent. As resource tensions and economic deprivation from climate change rise and lead to social unrest, we see Costco (already in the general services contracting business, a logical offshoot of their real estate division) add private security and defense roles to its services offerings. And once the inevitable happens in that social scenario, and you see breakaway states trying to form out of the US, Costco will rush in to rescue any threatened facilities and the people in them. It will be great PR, Costco, the company who cares. And between their (assumedly successful) use of force and apparent concern for the citizenry (in an era where that now means nothing), Costco then becomes the de facto government for much of the country. Whatever existing government(s) either sue for peace or are eradicated (as the remnant US government is destroyed before it can launch nukes). A new beast swallows the old, digests it, dominates and dissolves it through envelopment from the inside out. A new feudal era sets in, with the Pax Costco eventually reigning through the world until the wheels of history crush it under their perpetual, circular turning. See what you've made me do, fishmech? Now I've basically written a dystopian/utopian Costcopunk short work epic, all because of your meddling. But, um, if any of this comes to forecast and any of you make a killing from it somehow, please think of me and make a donation somewhere to better the world? Peace?
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Sep 29, 2017 05:42
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Kthulhu5000 posted:fishmech
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Sep 29, 2017 05:57
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Amazon is an absolute nightmare to shop for specialty items. They don't curate at all, they have no protections against knockoffs, misleading item listings, and scammy resellers. They have a terrible, cluttered, sluggish UI and garbage search functions that can't even do obvious things like figure out if you search "headphones" you probably want headphones and not, say, a six-foot vinyl wall decal of a picture of headphones. Yeah, this is incredibly true. A while back I was looking for a battery case for my iPhone 6s+. I wanted to make sure it would accept a full 2A charge, rather than a more standard 1A. Good loving luck trying to find that, when most sellers would spam all sorts of keywords in their products, and no "FAST CHARGING" case was more than 1A.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:20
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Haha that reminds me of an anecdote my brother told me...he works for a reverse logistics company (basically they take returned or unwanted items and then either resell or do whatever with them for a fee). In order to price items for resale, someone wrote an algorithm that would basically look for the lowest price of that item on Amazon, and use that. Since it's a small company this was implemented without a lot of oversight or planning One day a company-wide email went out from the CEO titled "SOMEONE hosed UP..." showing several expensive things like phones or cameras being listed for like $8, since that was the price of whatever cut-rate charger cable or whatever shows up when you sort by price after typing in "iPhone 8" in Amazon.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:30
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Kthulhu5000 posted:ZaiCostco: A Costco Fan Fiction This cracks me up because of how Costco is already international and where their headquarters is located.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:32
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Welcome to Costco, I love you. Amazon is a massive pain to search, but it's still miles ahead of the competition. I'm still trying to find a 2 1/2 inch drive bay for a PC card reader and it insists on throwing every single hard drive mount at me instead, but goddamn, every other retailer site is still somehow worse.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:48
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Inescapable Duck posted:Welcome to Costco, I love you. See I'm no computer expert but that seems like the kind of thing where you'd be better served by a specialty site like Newegg or something? It's the same with clothes, I really don't think Amazon will ever crack the clothing market. They let so much drop-shipped Aliexpress garbage on there you can't even filter by size, because is this an American 6 or a Euro 6 or does this Asian XXXL translate at all? I would say, actually, that other than things that are easily reviewed and compared, like appliances and media, Amazon is total garbage at selling you anything where quality matters. Good clothing sites online have standard photo sets of each item, usually with crazy zoom that lets you see the stitching and the texture of the fabric, and it'll give you the model's exact measurements so you can better imagine how it would fit on you, etc. Their logistics are impressive though (if a massive human rights violation). Those dropboxes in 7/11s and poo poo work so well, and I tried Prime Now recently and damned if they didn't deliver me my Whole Foods sandalwood hand soap in 90 minutes flat.
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Sep 29, 2017 07:57
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:See I'm no computer expert but that seems like the kind of thing where you'd be better served by a specialty site like Newegg or something? It's the same with clothes, I really don't think Amazon will ever crack the clothing market. They let so much drop-shipped Aliexpress garbage on there you can't even filter by size, because is this an American 6 or a Euro 6 or does this Asian XXXL translate at all? It's basically a matter of them spending the money to do it. They have made significant inroads in grocery, the online shopping white whale. Meanwhile you cannot buy a t-shirt and trust that you're not getting a loving piece of poo poo in the mail.
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Sep 29, 2017 08:10
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:See I'm no computer expert but that seems like the kind of thing where you'd be better served by a specialty site like Newegg or something? Usually not. Specialty sites are also pieces of poo poo and the hassle of searching amazon for things like major PC components is still far, far below the hassle of putting up with even shittier buggier more poorly designed garbage websites that have slower shipping and worse selection. For electronics, the point where you actually should go search a dedicated electronics shop is when you're buying like less common individual opamps and transistors and poo poo. Only at this point does the number of options get so massive that even a really lovely dedicated search function is better than scrolling through 100 pages of amazon results to look for a 69 milliohm 0.5% 2W precision resistor or whatever.
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Sep 29, 2017 08:23
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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RuanGacho posted:This cracks me up because of how Costco is already international and where their headquarters is located. And to answer the question about regional PNW food, it's teriyaki chicken. Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Sep 29, 2017 |
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Sep 29, 2017 12:04
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Kthulhu5000 posted:
No. not really. If your company is already in deep poo poo you're by definition going to lack the money and time to "implement change gradually" or fancy up your stores or whatever. Unless they're going to try and take on a ton more debt which is probably the reason they're in trouble right now, in the first place. American retailers are meeting what you claim to want, you're still angry at them anyway. Ok they could do that, but what's the point? That would be kind of an extremely radical change for no particular reason. Why not demand that Wal-Mart change all their stores tomorrow to just sell mountaineering equipment and hamburgers?
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Sep 29, 2017 13:32
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Does anyone like retail tho? Not it's workers
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Sep 29, 2017 13:50
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Arglebargle III posted:Does anyone like retail tho? Not it's workers Depends on what you mean by liking retail. Not everyone prefers being waterboarded to shopping, despite what the thread consensus might lead you to believe!
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Sep 29, 2017 14:29
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Arglebargle III posted:Does anyone like retail tho? Not it's workers i like retail
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Sep 29, 2017 14:33
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