Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

Not to mention there's only a few places that speak in "pure" Ukrainian, I think. Everyone in my school speaks in dialect except the director when he's addressing us in a meeting. Anecdotally, my students suffer when they go to the bigger universities outside of the oblast because their Ukrainian just isn't that great.

# ? Sep 27, 2017 14:10

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# ? May 16, 2024 19:07

Dwesa: Jul 19, 2016

From the news article:

quote:

In a separate statement, Hungary's Ministry of Human Resources...
"Ukraine's leadership is steering its own country not toward Europe, but toward a dead end," the ministry said.

The pot calling the kettle black...

# ? Sep 27, 2017 14:10

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

Dwesa posted:

From the news article:

The pot calling the kettle black...

Hungary goes super hard here in western Ukraine with sponsoring language programs and funding Hungarian schools. I've heard rumors that if they get enough people who speak Hungarian in an area they get to claim it as their territory, but I think that is bullshit. Nevertheless, learning Hungarian is a quick way to a EU visa/passport.

# ? Sep 27, 2017 14:14

Dwesa: Jul 19, 2016

Shes Not Impressed posted:

Hungary goes super hard here in western Ukraine with sponsoring language programs and funding Hungarian schools. I've heard rumors that if they get enough people who speak Hungarian in an area they get to claim it as their territory, but I think that is bullshit. Nevertheless, learning Hungarian is a quick way to a EU visa/passport.

Not sure about territorial changes (like autonomous region or something like that?), but Orb�n won 2/3 majority in 2014 elections thanks to votes from hungarian diaspora, so he is supporting them, because he also needs them.

# ? Sep 27, 2017 14:27

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Serbogoons, what's the popular reaction to your new Prime Minister?

# ? Sep 27, 2017 17:49

SaltyJesus: Jun 2, 2011; Arf!

Shes Not Impressed posted:

Not to mention there's only a few places that speak in "pure" Ukrainian, I think. Everyone in my school speaks in dialect except the director when he's addressing us in a meeting. Anecdotally, my students suffer when they go to the bigger universities outside of the oblast because their Ukrainian just isn't that great.

If you don't mind saying. which oblast would this be? Is it Zakarpattia where they speak Rusyn or more out east where they speak some Ukrainian-Russian surzhyk.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Serbogoons, what's the popular reaction to your new Prime Minister?

I haven't been following the media but surprisingly nobody in my immediate circle of friends/family/colleagues seems to give much of a poo poo? :shrug:

e: I think she got the benefit of being written off as a Vučić power play or token (female, lesbian, atheist, Croatian lol) progressivism for the benefit of the EU.

SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Sep 28, 2017

# ? Sep 28, 2017 07:15

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

It seems Polish government is too busy with overtaking justice system and pissing off Germany to care about Ukrainian laws.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 09:50

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

Fabulous Knight posted:

So Poroshenko signed a language law according to which all students in Ukraine will, starting from 2020, only study in Ukrainian from the fifth grade onward. They will still be able to study their potential native languages that are different than Ukrainian on the side, but that is the main gist of the law. Other EE states didn't take it very well. The Romanian president cancelled his trip to Ukraine as well as Poroshenko's trip to Romania, and yesterday Hungary's FM said that his country will in retaliation be blocking "all" Ukrainian attempts to get closer to the EU in the future. I'm sure Poland was also pissed in some way or another.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraines-president-signs-controversial-education-law-50096090

Now I can see the point on both sides of this, and maybe it's easy for me to say as a person not from any of these countries, but seems to me like now would be the time to just accept the law as it is. I'm not sure it should have been signed, but it was. Helping Ukraine consolidate its national identity should probably be more important right now than bickering over national minorities numbering in the hundreds of thousands. But seeing as it is EE, it's all probably about to all go to hell. The language used and the tantrum thrown by the Hungarians is embarrassing, as there are like 150 000 Hungarians living in Ukraine.

No, man, "consolidating national identity" is not a valid guiding principle of policy in the 21st century. Plus, this is the exact language Putin uses, except there it's good when Russia does it and bad when others do it, and here it's the other way around.

The fact that Ukraine is objectively the victim in its conflict with Russia is no reason to excuse them when they do poo poo like this. This is a dick move and Poroshenko is shamefully folding to a really ugly nationalistic element. Ukraine is a multilingual and somewhat multiethnic country, and rolling back the rights of minorities to teach kids in their own language is generally considered pretty oppressive. Plus, from a pragmatic point of view, it's incredibly stupid because all it will accomplish is piss off those Russian-speakers who remain loyal to the Ukrainian state - Kiev is sending them a big fat message of "we don't care about you and you're all basically suspect until you speak Ukrainian". Given that the previous (fortunately failed) attempt to roll back language rights was the rallying cry of the separatists and Putin's casus belli in internal propaganda, it's not hard to imagine that this wil inflame tensions again.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 10:10

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Guildencrantz posted:

No, man, "consolidating national identity" is not a valid guiding principle of policy in the 21st century. Plus, this is the exact language Putin uses, except there it's good when Russia does it and bad when others do it, and here it's the other way around.

Do tell me which country Ukraine is invading and occupying as we speak.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 10:24

Third World Reagan: May 19, 2008; Imagine four 'mechs waiting in a queue. Time works the same way.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Do tell me which country Ukraine is invading and occupying as we speak.

russia

# ? Sep 28, 2017 10:31

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Third World Reggin posted:

russia

What's up, old splorcher?

# ? Sep 28, 2017 10:34

Osama Dozen-Dongs: Nov 29, 2014

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Do tell me which country Ukraine is invading and occupying as we speak.

Suppressing minorities is immoral no matter who's doing it duder. If Ukraine wants to be Russia with a different paint job, they have no place entering the EU.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 12:42

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/913074996926468096

# ? Sep 28, 2017 13:29

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

Suppressing minorities is immoral no matter who's doing it duder. If Ukraine wants to be Russia with a different paint job, they have no place entering the EU.

I'm arguing against the "plucky little Russia was right all along about the 2014 language law" rhetoric, not for the law, which I've yet to read about thoroughly.

You'd also be surprised how many EU members suppress minorities if that's how you insist to put it.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 13:38

Ghost of Mussolini: Jun 26, 2011

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I'm arguing against the "plucky little Russia was right all along about the 2014 language law" rhetoric, not for the law, which I've yet to read about thoroughly.

I don't think the point was to seriously put forward that point, but to say that it is similar enough to that (on paper, obviously the realities of the military context are wildly different) for Russian mouthpieces to start putting that discourse out.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 13:52

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

SaltyJesus posted:

If you don't mind saying. which oblast would this be? Is it Zakarpattia where they speak Rusyn or more out east where they speak some Ukrainian-Russian surzhyk.

I'm in Zakarpattia where the wild things are

# ? Sep 28, 2017 14:07

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

I don't think the point was to seriously put forward that point, but to say that it is similar enough to that (on paper, obviously the realities of the military context are wildly different) for Russian mouthpieces to start putting that discourse out.

Russian mouthpieces don't need anything to churn "content" out, and a good deal of trouble would've been avoided if paying attention to words would have not been handwaved away. Not that we didn't have enough posters to try weasel this poo poo in from time to time either.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 14:19

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Wasn't this website blocked in Russia at some point? Horribly unpatriotic of them to browse.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 14:25

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

anilEhilated posted:

Wasn't this website blocked in Russia at some point? Horribly unpatriotic of them to browse.

I remember something like that too yeah.

E: Back home, checked. https://www.somethingawful.com/comedy-goldmine/positive-school-posters/6 - this page is in the blocklist, added by the Rospotrebnadzor (consumer rights watchdog basically) on the grounds of information prohibited for distribution in Russia.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Sep 28, 2017

# ? Sep 28, 2017 14:30

Osama Dozen-Dongs: Nov 29, 2014

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I'm arguing against the "plucky little Russia was right all along about the 2014 language law" rhetoric, not for the law, which I've yet to read about thoroughly.

You'd also be surprised how many EU members suppress minorities if that's how you insist to put it.

And it's immoral when they do it, too. :shrug:

Keep going for that tu quoque tho! It was wrong when France did it, it's wrong when Hungary does it, and it will be wrong when Ukraine does it. Only one of those three is trying to join the EU, which involves actually passing some criteria that Ukraine obviously doesn't want to pass any more than Turkey does.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:25

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

And it's immoral when they do it, too. Keep going for that tu quoque tho! It was wrong when France did it, it's wrong when Hungary does it, and it will be wrong when Ukraine does it. Only one of those three is trying to join the EU, which involves actually passing some criteria that Ukraine obviously doesn't want to pass any more than Turkey does.

I'm not going for tu quoque, I'm saying that plenty of EU won't care about it if it let their members states to do the exact same thing without repercussions.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:33

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

And it's immoral when they do it, too. Keep going for that tu quoque tho! It was wrong when France did it, it's wrong when Hungary does it, and it will be wrong when Ukraine does it. Only one of those three is trying to join the EU, which involves actually passing some criteria that Ukraine obviously doesn't want to pass any more than Turkey does.

There is a flipside to that, though: EU wasn't happening any time soon regardless of what happened, so there is little actual pressure that can come when it comes to that.

(There is also a legitimate issue of what happens to students who do their school in a minority language and then try to go to college in Ukrainian... especially for minorities other than than ten Russian-speakers, for whom the practical thing would be to just have some Russian-language universities).

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:36

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I'm not going for tu quoque, I'm saying that plenty of EU won't care about it if it let their members states to do the exact same thing without repercussions.

Hey now, France has finally stopped executing people for speaking things besides French!

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:38

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

fishmech posted:

Hey now, France has finally stopped executing people for speaking things besides French!

French and executions are likes Swedes and chewing tobacco - these things take time.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:42

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

cinci zoo sniper posted:

E: Back home, checked. https://www.somethingawful.com/comedy-goldmine/positive-school-posters/6 - this page is in the blocklist, added by the Rospotrebnadzor (consumer rights watchdog basically) on the grounds of information prohibited for distribution in Russia.

Btw, it depends on the ISP, I know about half of them allow SA and half of them don't (and I don't really feel like specifying).

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:42

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Ardennes posted:

Btw, it depends on the ISP, I know about half of them allow SA and half of them don't (and I don't really feel like specifying).

Haha, can't blame you for keeping due diligence of Russian ISPs private.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 15:45

Osama Dozen-Dongs: Nov 29, 2014

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I'm not going for tu quoque, I'm saying that plenty of EU won't care about it if it let their members states to do the exact same thing without repercussions.

The EU does not have a mechanism to punish pre-existing member states for failing to fulfill membership requirements, hth. It there were, Greece would have been tossed out years ago.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 16:11

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

The EU does not have a mechanism to punish pre-existing member states for failing to fulfill membership requirements, hth. It there were, Greece would have been tossed out years ago.

Membership requirements are upheld by EU laws applicable within the EU, and there are mechanisms they can exercise in cases of violations (see: modern history of Poland). Greece would have not been tossed anywhere because it is a member of eurozone, but I'm sure someone ITT can correct me on that since my economical knowledge is the size of a cat's penis.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 16:23

Osama Dozen-Dongs: Nov 29, 2014

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Membership requirements are upheld by EU laws applicable within the EU, and there are mechanisms they can exercise in cases of violations (see: modern history of Poland). Greece would have not been tossed anywhere because it is a member of eurozone, but I'm sure someone ITT can correct me on that since my economical knowledge is the size of a cat's penis.

The EU accession criteria include an economic item, that Greece most certainly does not fulfill:

Conditions for membership posted:

a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU

What you haven't commented with a word is why you think any of this is relevant to the fact that Ukraine is planning to flagrantly go against the first criterion for membership, which is why it has no business becoming a member. Membership hopefuls are supposed to take steps towards fulfilling the criteria, not away from it.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 17:10

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

The EU accession criteria include an economic item, that Greece most certainly does not fulfill:

Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:

What you haven't commented with a word is why you think any of this is relevant to the fact that Ukraine is planning to flagrantly go against the first criterion for membership, which is why it has no business becoming a member. Membership hopefuls are supposed to take steps towards fulfilling the criteria, not away from it.

I don't have anything to add to what OddObserver has already said, not that I particularly thought of this aspect to begin with.

E: Either way, the law has been sent by Ukrainians to the European Parliament for a review, so we can just wait and see.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Sep 28, 2017

# ? Sep 28, 2017 17:13

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

In case of polish minority it's loving stupid, since a lot of them end up on some student sponsorship (or something) in Poland. A lot of students with Ukrainian passports in Lublin and even farther west.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 17:31

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

cinci zoo sniper posted:

E: Either way, the law has been sent by Ukrainians to the European Parliament for a review, so we can just wait and see.

Err, isn't that something you would normally do before the President signs it? Otherwise I would have assumed this was a "look, we tried!" scheme to appease certain mileaus --- immitating doing things is one thing Ukrainian politicians are really good at.

# ? Sep 28, 2017 18:07

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

OddObserver posted:

Err, isn't that something you would normally do before the President signs it? Otherwise I would have assumed this was a "look, we tried!" scheme to appease certain mileaus --- immitating doing things is one thing Ukrainian politicians are really good at.

Yeah, this definitely is an appeasal thing, but if it goes through with EP we'll get to have an official stance on the question. Either way there won't be guaranteed going back from the law any time soon.

E: To expand, so, they sent Article 7 (the focus of the foreign commentary) today for a ?pre-arranged? examination by European Parliament, that ?is to last? 6 months. Minister of Education and Science is saying that they are ready to concede to the European decision on it, but it remains to be seen what the parliament actually does in the end of the day.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 28, 2017

# ? Sep 28, 2017 18:10

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Think piece on Russia's long game for Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

https://apostrophe.ua/article/politics/2017-09-28/otstali-navsegda-putin-pridumal-dolgiy-plan-dlya-kryima-i-donbassa/14687

quote:

Vladimir Putin is trying to freeze the situation in the annexed Crimea and the occupied Donbas for many years, but in the end Russia catastrophically lags behind the civilized world, despite all attempts to circumvent the sanctions. This opinion was voiced by the Russian opposition politician Konstantin Borovoi, commenting on the statement of the German ambassador to Russia, Rudiger von Fritsch, that the summer scandal with the supply of Siemens equipment to the Crimea led to an increase in the anxiety and uncertainty of international investors in Russia .

The project of the Crimea and the East of Ukraine (the occupied Donbas, the "Apostrophe") is gradually approaching the state in which Pridnestrovie, Abkhazia and South Ossetia turned out to be. In general, it can be seen that the Kremlin sees at this point of "stability" the state where it is interested to translate the situation. Putin's last proposal for the use of UN peacekeepers to distinguish this gangster enclave (the so-called NDP-LNR, Apostrophe) and the territory controlled by Ukraine shows that the Kremlin sees this as the solution to the problem. This is an attempt to freeze the conflict for years to come.

Of course, with respect to the development of these territories - Abkhazia, Transnistria, South Ossetia, and now Crimea and the East of Ukraine (ORDLO, Apostrophe), everything is done to maintain the viability of these regions. And when Putin personally gave guarantees to Siemens about the non-use of these turbines for the Crimea (around which a scandal broke out later ), he really deceived investors and deceived the big company.

If this did not cause a serious scandal (with the disclosure of these plans), it would end with some temporary solution to the energy problem of the Crimea. But this is not just a depressive region, but a region that has been sanctioned. And, fortunately, Ukraine closely watches the events taking place there. By the way, to a much lesser degree than Georgia for the events in Abkhazia and Moldova over the events in Transnistria. B Thanks to this ( the institutions of civil society that emerged in parallel state structures - a very valuable and important result of the new democratic Ukraine ) and through sanctions, of course, managed to contain Russia's ability to tackle its problems in the occupied territories of Ukraine.

All attempts by the Kremlin to bypass sanctions, reduce the concern of the world community over the occupied territories undermine confidence in Russia and, most importantly, draw the attention of the world community to the very uncivilized actions of the Russian Federation. After all, in addition to the violation of sanctions, there are violated the fundamental principles related to the observance of the rights of the population in the occupied territories. New legislation has been introduced, which is contrary to international principles, repression, persecution for political reasons. Russia is inflicting enormous damage on these uncivilized and criminal acts.

Russia's rating is already very low, and because of these events, it is even worse. The case with Siemens is a very indicative situation, which affects other companies, other contacts of the Russian Federation with the international community. And attempts to compensate for this relative isolation with the help of special services, which simply steal modern microcircuits, further complicate the situation for Russia.

It is clear why this is done. Once isolated, Russia actually turned out to be cut off from the modern technological achievements of mankind. No longer can modern computers be used. This affects, starting from military technology, ending with agriculture, which can not exist without modern electronics, modern technological achievements.

This is not yet an embargo, but Russia is drawing closer to the moment when the embargo can start talking. On the technological level, the Russian Federation is gradually retreating to the state of the Soviet Union, which has lagged behind world development for 50 years, or, as many experts said, "have not lagged behind for 50 years, but forever".

All this will continue as long as Russia is in a state of an authoritarian empire that is trying to expand its borders, behaving aggressively not only in relation to its neighbors, but in the rest of the world. Many already consider Russia the main destructive force of the XXI century at the level of the "Islamic state", terrorist entities. The main thing is that this danger is now realized and localized.

What will happen next - depends only on Russia itself. To what extent - perhaps, the reformation is internal and external in conditions when authoritarian power survives only in a state of isolation from the rest of the world.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Sep 29, 2017

# ? Sep 29, 2017 10:18

SaltyJesus: Jun 2, 2011; Arf!

at a risk of going tu quoque

quote:

Many already consider Russia the main destructive force of the XXI century at the level of the "Islamic state", terrorist entities.

loving lmao

# ? Sep 29, 2017 11:46

Ghost of Mussolini: Jun 26, 2011

I'm pretty sure that they still have computers in Russia and nobody needs to set up a trade deal with Pravetz just yet

# ? Sep 29, 2017 12:48

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Think piece on Russia's long game for Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

https://apostrophe.ua/article/politics/2017-09-28/otstali-navsegda-putin-pridumal-dolgiy-plan-dlya-kryima-i-donbassa/14687

Ukrainian nationalists must be pretty desperate if they're hanging their hopes on Russia starving because it can't get German electronics for its tractors

# ? Sep 29, 2017 13:51

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I remember something like that too yeah.

E: Back home, checked. https://www.somethingawful.com/comedy-goldmine/positive-school-posters/6 - this page is in the blocklist, added by the Rospotrebnadzor (consumer rights watchdog basically) on the grounds of information prohibited for distribution in Russia.

But was it the gay wrestling image or the how to slit your wrists image? We may never know.

# ? Sep 30, 2017 03:48

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

SaltyJesus posted:

at a risk of going tu quoque

loving lmao

Yeah, that's a pretty silly comparison. Islamic State wishes they did as much damage as Russia.

# ? Sep 30, 2017 15:16

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# ? May 16, 2024 19:07

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

anilEhilated posted:

Yeah, that's a pretty silly comparison. Islamic State wishes they did as much damage as Russia.

A great many people don't even have Russia on their radar. I'm in Slovenia and Russia's poo poo barely ever makes the news, much less front pages and is under represented, often to the point one would think such a country doesn't even exist, in right wing media. Which is also obviously the loudest about the middle east.

Saying Putin is behind many of the far right movements around the world in public gets you branded as a conspiracy theorist, even, which is extremely ironic because these same people were scared shitless of Russia back when they were dirty commies not even 30 years ago.

# ? Sep 30, 2017 15:57

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