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Typo posted:left a person 1000000 times more famous than today's most luminary leftist
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Sep 30, 2017 00:33
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It was mentioned earlier, but does anyone have any articles on the Sino-Soviet Split? I don't know much about it, and understand even less about why it happened. Since it seems to be the worst diplomatic blunder of the 20th century.Autism Sneaks posted:a person 1000000 times more famous than today's most luminary leftist I assumed you were talking about Zizek at first, in hindsight this says a lot
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Sep 30, 2017 01:40
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Ruzihm posted:I agree with what you're saying about underdeveloped populations having to make concessions the the bourgeoisie, the whole point of the dictatorship of the proletariat is to diminish those concessions. I think we're just arguing semantics at this point so I'll just concede on that. I'm not sure if it is a semantic issue exactly, but fwiw your concerns are well taken and I do agree with the thrust of your argument. China's "retreat," such as it is, has always been a cause for concern on those grounds, if not outright dismissal by many. But then again, as much as the Deng era came with the predictable glut of "his" folks taking important offices, as far as I've been able to learn, the structure of the Chinese government, the relationship between state and party, etc. didn't undergo major change. That seems to me a significant detail — sort of the flipside of "the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery and wield it for its own purposes." To suppose that they've folded fully without the state apparatus being smashed and rebuilt suggests that there must have been a crypto-bourgeois character to the revolution itself, which is a harder position to defend. Plus, the folks who were dismissing China in the 80's hadn't yet seen the USSR's final collapse — which did, in the end, require the aforementioned smashing. To my mind, this recontextualized a number of the (obviously disastrous) Soviet economic reforms of the prior decades — had they actually transformed it into a bourgeois state, there would have been no need to dissolve the CPSU and government and throw everything into turmoil. However, said prior reforms did contribute to the ideological milieu under which counterrevolution became possible, which is why I view China as playing an extremely dangerous game. So I guess my main argument would be that, with the continuation of the party and state, China possesses an ability shared by few other countries: to shift (back) to policies less tolerant of capital without necessitating another full-scale revolution. With historically low profitability creating an ever more laggard and unstable capitalist world, the real test of this idea may not be far off. Either way, I consider the "China question" among the most important of our time. Incidentally, here's a recent essay expanding upon the NEP comparison I had mentioned earlier. Not to say I agree with every point it makes, but it charts out some very interesting parallels. Ruzihm posted:Yeah that makes sense. Would you say that Marx simplified things in Gothacritik for the sake of discussion in only describing the transformation of society in the abstract, not going into the minutiae of what a dictatorship of the proletariat entails when the transformation of society is heterogenous? I don't have a good answer there, sorry. But it sounds reasonable enough to think so. The generally accepted figure is that the DotP only came up 11 times in Marx's whole catalogue. My inclination is to start with one of the clearer such statements: quote:(1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with particular historical phases in the development of production ... (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat, (3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society. ...and consider it in light of Marx's reticence on abstract "blueprints," given the whole scientific socialist project requires weighing the concrete conditions of existence at the point of a particular revolutionary movement, rather than fixating on one-sided abstractions. As for the rest, regarding penal systems: Agreed on all counts. Aeolius fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 02:15
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Dreddout posted:Don't erase Rosa you fuckin' opportunist rosa wasn't a left com because she did something
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Sep 30, 2017 02:17
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Arguing that China is still communist because it didn't have a revolution, is like arguing that engliand is still feudalistic. A continuity of the leadership class means absolutely nothing for a continuity of production. In china, this is a shift from state capitalism to just capitalism.
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Sep 30, 2017 02:31
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rudatron posted:Arguing that China is still communist because it didn't have a revolution, is like arguing that engliand is still feudalistic. So the entire cycle from the Great Rebellion to the Glorious Revolution just never happened, or what?
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Sep 30, 2017 02:54
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Top City Homo posted:rosa wasn't a left com because she did something they threw her armchair in the barricades so she didn't have a choice.
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Sep 30, 2017 03:12
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Ruzihm posted:they threw her armchair in the barricades so she didn't have a choice. Actually they had to throw her and her armchair into the river because her skin had fused together with the upholstery.
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Sep 30, 2017 03:13
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Aeolius posted:So the entire cycle from the Great Rebellion to the Glorious Revolution just never happened, or what?
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Sep 30, 2017 03:54
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This has some cross over with what pener said before: the personal qualities or backgrounds of leaders doesn't 'determine' the system, what determines it are the incentives on actors and the system dynamics. By focusing in on the either the Sufficiently Proleterian background of leaders, the actual system is being obfuscated, and that's true for the USSR, PRC, USA, etc.
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Sep 30, 2017 03:54
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I don't think I mentioned the background of any particular leader.rudatron posted:meaningful A familiar chestnut. Ruds, I'm cool skipping our usual song and dance and going straight to the part where you call me a craven opportunistic revisionist, I call you a hidebound ultraleft dogmatist, and we go our separate ways. 
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Sep 30, 2017 04:07
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Tesseraction posted:the boomer generation got Noam Chomsky and my generation gets Russy-wussy Brandy-wandy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDrHqNZ9lo
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Sep 30, 2017 04:35
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Top City Homo posted:rosa wasn't a left com because she did something Actually the failure of her council communist revolution led to an entire generation of left coms not doing anything for fear of Social Democrats
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Sep 30, 2017 04:50
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the most insightful thing zizek has ever said was about toilets
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Sep 30, 2017 07:54
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he did a really good piece on lost highway back when that came out
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Sep 30, 2017 08:42
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its extremely good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXPyCY7jbs
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Sep 30, 2017 08:43
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Jose posted:the most insightful thing zizek has ever said was about fleshlights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcHc54Z_b3w
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Sep 30, 2017 09:01
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holy poo poo
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Sep 30, 2017 09:04
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Algund Eenboom posted:Does anyone have stuff about Tito and how he treated ethnic groups in yugoslavia https://www.marxists.org/archive/tito/1948/11/26.htm
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Sep 30, 2017 11:02
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yugoslavia would have a really good football team its a shame it split up. could definitely win a world cup
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Sep 30, 2017 11:05
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Jose posted:yugoslavia would have a really good football team its a shame it split up. could definitely win a world cup uhhh Jose, they play soccer in the world cup you're thinking of the super bowl
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Sep 30, 2017 13:33
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Waffle House posted:Which one
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Sep 30, 2017 13:44
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https://twitter.com/DPRK_News/status/914080135623643136
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Sep 30, 2017 14:13
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Tito was right about nationalisms. https://twitter.com/Arpwel/status/913939224939913216 Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 14:21
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Ruzihm posted:they threw her armchair in the barricades so she didn't have a choice. pretty sure libertarian marxism isn't left com
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Sep 30, 2017 17:00
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Dreddout posted:Actually the failure of her council communist revolution led to an entire generation of left coms not doing anything for fear of Social Democrats there was the Hungarian spring most of those guys were council communists (or cia backed opportunists) i think that rosa's brand actually has the revolutionary ethos 
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Sep 30, 2017 17:08
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Top City Homo posted:there was the Hungarian spring 
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Sep 30, 2017 17:50
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Top City Homo posted:there was the Hungarian spring Ah yes, Krushchev, another famous Socdem.
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Sep 30, 2017 23:03
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But realtalk I think you're conflating Left Communism as a wider group with it's subset of Ultralefts
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Sep 30, 2017 23:05
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did somebody itt seriously call hungarian communists cia plants i thought this sort of ultratankie was extinct
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Sep 30, 2017 23:08
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Over Easy posted:uhhh Jose, they play soccer in the world cup American sports may be weirdly socialist but I don't think many people in Eastern Europe give a poo poo about the nfl
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Sep 30, 2017 23:13
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steinrokkan posted:did somebody itt seriously call hungarian communists cia plants I think it's pretty evident that the cia tried to influence 1956 even if most of the people were leftists
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Oct 1, 2017 00:12
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Jose posted:American sports may be weirdly socialist what
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Oct 1, 2017 00:35
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i mean they're not but salary caps and the draft are never happening in sports here as clubs bankrupt themselves to try to make it in the premier league where all the money is and fail
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Oct 1, 2017 00:37
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Jose posted:i mean they're not but salary caps and the draft are never happening in sports here as clubs bankrupt themselves to try to make it in the premier league where all the money is and fail The NFL is basically able to do all this because it's exercising a monopoly power on professional football. The owners are all running a cartel.
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Oct 1, 2017 00:39
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regardless claiming that yugoslavia didn't play football is disgraceful and https://www.theguardian.com/football/video/2014/oct/15/serbia-albania-drone-brawl-video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC0gd4r6QQQ
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Oct 1, 2017 00:43
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*clap* TITO *clap* WAS *clap* RIGHT
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Oct 1, 2017 00:47
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its important to note that since gibraltar was recognised as a UEFA and FIFA member spain kicked up such a fuss they will never face each other until the knock out stages of an international tournament at which point its impossible to avoid. All the former yugoslav countries play each other
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Oct 1, 2017 00:48
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soccer is an unbelievably gay euro sport
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Oct 1, 2017 00:50
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdaO6t7utwo
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Oct 1, 2017 00:51
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