Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

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D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

tuo posted:

I'm actually perplexed I am not on his ignore list, as I got the last two epic meltdowns out of him (the second with major help from tophat!), and he said he put me in ignore.

Actually I am sitting here now, shivering, that he will post soon that I am on his ingore list NOW, and my whole existence is thus flawed.

Actually actually I'm hoping for another Derek meltdown, but I think he isn't in quite the correct mood today. Not enough steam in him.

You didn't attack or berate me. Why would you be on my ignore list?

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:23

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# ? May 30, 2024 17:24

Mattjpwns: Dec 14, 2006; In joyful strains then let us sing
ADVANCE AUSTRALIA FUCKED

The Titanic posted:

It did. I'm sunk.

I clicked on tutorial but I didn't see a tutorial thing to read. Maybe it popped up and was overwritten by the characters talking? I didn't know about [key]-H for a ton of stuff. I also assumed the escape key would bring me to a menu to quit the game, since that's how it is in pretty much every other game.

However I didn't read a manual going into this. I plugged in a controller and hit play. Then I went to a tutorial to teach me what I need to do, and my experience was the tutorial.

I'm pretty sure the "tutorial" is in the manual. As in you read the tutorial on paper (or pdf), following the instructions on paper while in the tutorial scenario.

Like it was in the early 90s.

Oh it is. All 97 pages of it.

:allears:

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:23

Laopooh: Jul 15, 2000

lmao this meltdown is the perfect thing to tide us over until citcon.

Convention be damned, swapping the gas and brake pedals was intentional! Sheesh maybe next time read the car manual more carefully?

btw I am very smart and my brain is enormous and quoting myself makes my dick parp

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:24

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

SomethingJones posted:

Derek if you knew anything about game development you'd have a store for selling other people's mods by now, and you'd be taking pre-orders for the sequel, the special edition of the sequel and the goty special edition sequel prequel with bonus unique in game item.

You can get away with microtransactions but only if your game keeps a solid 60fps everywhere at all times.

I know, right? Unfortunately, seeing as I'm obviously allergic to money, I just released my UCCE modding tools for free instead.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:25

TheAgent: Feb 16, 2002; The call is coming from inside Dr. House; Grimey Drawer

Wiz posted:

Derek, I genuinely hope for your own sake that you learn how to handle constructive criticism without puffing up into a ball of defensive arrogance one day. I really don't think you understand how much it inhibits you as a creative person. I think your drive to make games comes from a good place, that you want people to enjoy them, but christ man, people who want to like your game but are put off by the interface are not the enemy. They're people who could be enjoying your game right now if you learned to listen a little to them.

a great quote from chef's table on jeong kwan

quote:

Creativity and ego cannot go together. If you free yourself from the comparing and jealous mind, your creativity opens up endlessly. Just as water springs from a fountain, creativity springs from every moment. You must not be your own obstacle. You must not be owned by the environment you are in. You must own the environment, the phenomenal world around you. You must be able to freely move in and out of your mind. This is being free. There is no way you can�t open up your creativity. There is no ego to speak of. That is my belief.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:25

The Titanic: Sep 15, 2016; Unsinkable

[quote="�D_Smart�" post="�476942099�"]
Well I didn�t want those rear end-clowns cluttering the thread with their bullshit. And since the game is too complex for me to focus on it, and the chat, I set the auto-mod, then asked some of my guys and some Goons to moderate. It turned out pretty good.

Also, I was running two machines. So during luls in the game, I would swivel to the other machine to read the chat, answer questions.

I did this for six hours straight. I�d like to see those rear end-clowns play Star Citizen for that long; and without bugs, crashes etc.

I really wanted to do this specifically so that this video is out there that shows what I�ve been saying all along that, regardless of whether or not you like my BC/UC games, there is gently caress-all in Star Citizen that I haven�t done - and which works. And that�s why you build a loving custom engine to power a complex and massive game.

I thought it went rather well.
[/quote]

For all intents and purposes, that you can play your own game for any period of time and answer questions about it knowledgeably is far more than CR can do. Don't get me wrong, I have a great respect for people who know how to code games; even poo poo tier Steam stuff is leagues better than I could do.

People may be spoiled by what AAA titles can deliver to the board, hosing the chances for lots of indie guys from making it just because they can't muster the polish necessary to compete.

But you have a niche, and that's totally cool and good. You've made more money probably than I'll ever see in a lifetime with it too, and that's super awesome as well.

It's kind of like bringing a text based blackjack game to a casino and showing off how much more realistic it is than the stuff they have. Even if it's better, it's just a totally different category that will doubtless bring people mocking it and picking on it. Sometimes it's best just to not try to rub peoples noses in the dos game when it's in that state.

Not that SC is any better, it's just different and it may end up just as convoluted in the end. They're well on their way judging by some of the keyboard layouts I've seen.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:27

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

doingitwrong posted:

Derek "people buy my game so it must be good" is Citizen Backer thinking. You are meant to be smarter than that. And the fact that your UI decisions are covered in a manual doesn't excuse bad ones. Like, I get that you've found a niche for your games and congratulations on that. But come on, as a creator you really ought to be constantly thinking about how you could make it better. Or, if you are going to do something that deviates from modern UI norms, have the intellectual honesty to admit this is what you're doing, that it's a tradeoff and that it's one that's worth making for (SOME REASON). Instead of telling a boat to read a PDF.

Decent games can have bad menu design. Maybe your game does too.

Here, since this has been bugging me and bagging on games menus is briefly on topic, I'd like to rant about Mordheim City of the Damned for a moment. Mordheim is an adaptation of a Warhammer skirmish game. It's like XCOM with less lethality but more long term injuries. It's like Necromunda with swords. It's like Darkest Dungeon on a 3D map. It's a slow grindy game that feels like a board game and is pretty fun.

Here's the Warband management screen on the Xbox.

Right now I have the leader with the big hat selected. You can see he is highlighted. LB & RB cycle between the characters. What button would you press to select the gentleman in white with the big fuckoff staff?

If you answered LB you are wrong. If you answered RB, you are wrong too. The answer is RB twice. Because we aren't looking at the figures when we cycle, we are looking at that little line of icons on the bottom. OK fine. That's kind of unintuitive but we can learn the icons. Cool. Now I'll just go into the character screens and make a change to one of my guys.

Once again, we've got the guy in white with the big gently caress off staff. RB & LB cycle. What do you press to get back to the leader and make a change?

Did you guess LB twice? WRONG. See the warband in THIS interface is ordered by: Chronology (according to who you hired in what order). Since hero slots like the one our guy with the staff is in unlock over time, you almost certainly didn't hire him right after you hired the leader and the other hero. And since characters regularly die, get injured and so put out of rotation, go for training and so on, the order of hiring is more or less random once you are into the game.

I like Mordheim. It appeals to my broke brained desires to tediously level up characters, risk it all in combat, and often get shoved down only to have to start over with some of them. It's a 'hardcore' game. It tells you so right when you start playing. It's meant to be brutal and unforgiving. It's fun and stressful. But I will never defend the menu system. I have lost so much time to cycling through and trying to keep it straight in my head. I am pretty sure that this isn't part of the hardcoreness that the developers were selling. I'm pretty sure they just didn't think the UI through.

Derek, maybe your game is like that.

Yes, yes it is (except I have hotkeys) :grin:

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:28

Variable 5: Apr 17, 2007; We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they would be easy.; Grimey Drawer

D_Smart posted:

I know, right? Unfortunately, seeing as I'm obviously allergic to money, I just released my UCCE modding tools for free instead.

Nice. It's always good to see people give away something that nobody would pay for and then act generous about it.

Are you writing this off on your taxes?

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:29

tooterfish: Jul 13, 2013

Asking Derek not to warlord:

What next, you going to write to Chris and ask if he can take the day off from being a lying thumb faced coke head?

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:30

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

I loaded up Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes and read the manual for a few hours and when I was done I was all like 'wtf you mean that was the game :saddowns:

? '

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:31

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

tuo posted:

quote:
D_Smart posted:
I'm fine actually.

The thing is that everyone has an opinion. It's great and all. But God forbid if someone directs that opinion at you, and you try to defend against it.

I have spent 30 years in this industry, and making the games I want to make. Nothing's changed, except the rear end-clowns who keep attacking me and my "bad" games, just got older. The others who were born yesterday, aren't even smart enough to have an opinion on it, but that doesn't prevent them from having one anyway.

Games, like all forms of art, are subjective. You either like my games, or you don't. It makes NO difference to me. But that stance somehow comes as a shock to those who are of the opinion that I actually give a poo poo what they think.

Questioning why I did something one way, is no more objective, than complaining about why a book to film adaptation sux balls.

I mean, I'm loving arguing the merits of a default key binding - which can be changed - and some wanker whose claim to fame or anything remotely construed to be an act of note, is taking out the garbage, seeks to tell me that a key binding is incorrect because - loving lol - it's not standard. I mean, seriously.

That is one of the best posts from you, seriously.

E: all but the last paragraph

To be clear, it wasn't directed at ANYONE engaged in this discussion. It was a generalized statement about someone who knows nothing about gamedev and why a decision was made for a specific game, thinks they're in a position to tell me what's best for MY game and WHY I made such decisions (good, bad, or ugly).

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:33

Brazilianpeanutwar: Aug 27, 2015; Spent my walletfull, on a jpeg, desolate, will croberts make a whale of me yet?

Derek has ESCAPED his own mind.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:34

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Wiz posted:

There's a vast difference between constructive criticism like 'I don't think it's a good idea to use a nonstandard keybinding because it will confuse new players' and non-constructive criticism like 'Everything you do is poo poo'.

I get plenty of both, and I know it's hella frustrating sometimes when you feel like there's people out there who are just so invested into hating on everything you do, but that doesn't mean all criticism is wrong or comes from a bad place. A lot of it comes from a genuine desire to want to make a game they either like or want to try and like better. Understanding and being able to accept constructive criticism will make anyone, no matter how much experience they have, better at their job.

Yes - agreed. But after taking poo poo for so long, one tends not to even bother with rationality. And those fuckers have no desire to help "make the game they like or want to try, better". They just want to poo poo on it because, for the most part, it makes them feel better about their lives less ordinary. Me? I just keep making games that a group of people keep paying me to make. I'm not going to always get it right, but I never - ever - set out to do that. The fact that I started designing a game before I even knew how to program "Hello World", should've been a clue.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:36

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

D_Smart posted:

Yes - agreed. But after taking poo poo for so long, one tends not to even bother with rationality. And those fuckers have no desire to help "make the game they like or want to try, better". They just want to poo poo on it because, for the most part, it makes them feel better about their lives less ordinary. Me? I just keep making games that a group of people keep paying me to make. I'm not going to always get it right, but I never - ever - set out to do that. The fact that I started designing a game before I even knew how to program "Hello World", should've been a clue.

I will agree with on you this: there are absolutely a ton of toxic people out there whose only investment in a game is to hate on its creators, and they do wear you down. Still, that's no reason to go nuclear over UI feedback. If you have a reason for doing what you do, be secure in that instead of feeling the need to go claws out if someone criticizes it. I get plenty of feedback that is constructive but otherwise worthless, people trying to redesign your game without any understanding of why the design it as it is, or who don't themselves understand what they want out of the game. I usually ignore it, if I respond I'll typically just explain why I don't think the feedback is a good idea and move on.

Wiz fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Oct 1, 2017

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:50

Beet Wagon: Oct 19, 2015

Derek trotting out "you just don't understand games development" and complaining about people who just want to poo poo on a game, here, in the Star Citizen thread.

We're approaching peak irony.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:54

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Beet Wagon posted:

Derek trotting out "you just don't understand games development" and complaining about people who just want to poo poo on a game, here, in the Star Citizen thread.

We're approaching peak irony.

To be fair, there absolutely are a ton of people who just want to poo poo on games and the people who make them, no matter how undeserved that making GBS threads-on is. Gamer culture has a pretty toxic undercurrent to it, most developers I know will refuse to interact with players for this reason.

In the case of Star Citizen it's uh, not exactly undeserved though.

EDIT: At least insofar as making GBS threads on the game and the CIG management goes. Maybe don't doxx the junior programmer tho.

Wiz fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 1, 2017

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:56

D1E: Nov 25, 2001

Wiz is right and Derek is wrong.

Derek you should learn to listen to an actual successful game developer.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:56

Variable 5: Apr 17, 2007; We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they would be easy.; Grimey Drawer

Beet Wagon posted:

Derek trotting out "you just don't understand games development" and complaining about people who just want to poo poo on a game, here, in the Star Citizen thread.

We're approaching peak irony.

Best part is nobody ever shits on his games here until he insists on streaming them and comparing them to SC.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:03

Beet Wagon: Oct 19, 2015

Wiz posted:

To be fair, there absolutely are a ton of people who just want to poo poo on games and the people who make them, no matter how undeserved that making GBS threads-on is. Gamer culture has a pretty toxic undercurrent to it, most developers I know will refuse to interact with players for this reason.

In the case of Star Citizen it's uh, not exactly undeserved though. At least insofar as making GBS threads on the game and the CIG management goes.

Oh sure, I don't disagree with you. Gamers are shitpigs and tbh I'd probably never interact with them if I was a dev, which is why it's always a pleasant surprise to see devs "hanging out" with their playerbase on twitter/reddit/here/wherever. The Rainbow Six: Siege guys do a great job of this, as do you and a couple other devs I can think of. I'd simply add that in the case of Derek's games it's not exactly undeserved either - the dude has a pretty long rap sheet when it comes to putting out bizarre games and telling his players to go gently caress themselves. It's just hilariously funny to see him trotting out the same excuses he's excoriated CIG and CIG's fans for using for the last two years, all over the fact that someone felt the need to point out "Uh... you know, not using escape to bring up a game menu is a bad design choice."

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:03

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

The next page buttons have just gone all bigger rounded edges ooer

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:04

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

peter gabriel posted:

The next page buttons have just gone all bigger rounded edges ooer

That's it, SA just got too mainstream accessible and dumbed-down for me. I'm switching to tumblr.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:07

doingitwrong: Jul 27, 2013

Wow. That�s a heck of a lot more bezels, drop shadows, and gradients than we had 5 minutes ago.

And I see from the title that the save interface has changed too.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:07

MilesK: Nov 5, 2015

If anyone's having trouble with the controls in Derek Smarts games, the trick is to read the manual starting with pages 1-5 followed by pages 96-100 then 6-10 then 90-95, repeat this order until you arrive at the middle. Once you have the jist of it, you're going to need to print it out, relabel the keys on your keyboard, start the tutorial, while taking extensive notes. After a few months you should get the hang of it... you might forget how to play every other game though.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:09

his nibs: Feb 27, 2016; Welcome to the
Dream Factory; Grimey Drawer

I don't like change

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:10

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

I can't loving handle all these changes this is more confusing than a Derek menu now

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:10

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

Mouseover buttons that SHRINK when moused over?

WTF????????????

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:10

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

Wiz posted:

That's it, SA just got too mainstream accessible and dumbed-down for me. I'm switching to tumblr.

What a horrible night to have a curse.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:12

his nibs: Feb 27, 2016; Welcome to the
Dream Factory; Grimey Drawer

peter gabriel posted:

Mouseover buttons that SHRINK when moused over?

WTF????????????

I too long for the simpler, happier times

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:12

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

his nibs posted:

I too long for the simpler, happier times

It's all too much to quickly, I'm used to Star Citizen progress and this feels like a whirling storm of multiple huge changes all at once

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:14

his nibs: Feb 27, 2016; Welcome to the
Dream Factory; Grimey Drawer

peter gabriel posted:

It's all too much to quickly, I'm used to Star Citizen progress and this feels like a whirling storm of multiple huge changes all at once

Welp, off to the SA_refunds subreddit I go

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:17

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

peter gabriel posted:

It's all too much to quickly, I'm used to Star Citizen progress and this feels like a whirling storm of multiple huge changes all at once

What if SA added the requirement to get out of your wankpod and glitch through a door before making each post? I feel like that would substantially improve posting fidelity.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:18

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

Wiz posted:

What if SA added the requirement to get out of your wankpod and glitch through a door before making each post? I feel like that would substantially improve posting fidelity.

This is already part of my postin regime, or it will be once the posting pipelines are finished
V

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:24

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

TheAgent posted:

I am the quicksave slot that is only written to active memory

like why even do that. Why

Which would like me to discuss first? How quick saves work, and why? Or why I have both methods, while outlining 1) the benefits of both 2) why I chose to implement both, instead of one of the other?

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:25

beep_boop: Feb 2, 2016

D_Smart posted:

Which would like me to discuss first? How quick saves work, and why? Or why I have both methods, while outlining 1) the benefits of both 2) why I chose to implement both, instead of one of the other?

Yes

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:26

tooterfish: Jul 13, 2013

peter gabriel posted:

Mouseover buttons that SHRINK when moused over?

WTF????????????

They just wobble about a bit now.

It's real time web development, how exciting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_HyZ5aW76c&t=64s

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:26

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

http://lodgame.com/

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

D_Smart fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Feb 28, 2018

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:26

D_Smart: May 11, 2010; by FactsAreUseless; College Slice

Mattjpwns posted:

I still love how the good doctor "garbageman" "fool" "Nazis" tried to pull the ad hominem defense

It's hilarious that nobody got the "comment Nazi" reference (as in grammar Nazi) yet. Oh well.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:28

Beexoffel: Oct 4, 2015; Herald of the Stimpire

peter gabriel posted:

The next page buttons have just gone all bigger rounded edges ooer

And they jitter up and down a bit when I mouse over.
The SC, it is contagious.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:31

Dark Off: Aug 14, 2015

Wiz posted:

Which I think is entirely fair, because ultimately accessibility is a choice the developer makes in where to prioritize their resources. There's certainly limits on how accessible you can make some games (our historical games kind of suffer from throwing you headfirst into the geopolitical shark-tank, while Stellaris has a much calmer opening phase and gradually phases in the complexity) but you certainly can work within the bounds of what you have, and if the developer wasn't willing to put in that effort you certainly have no obligation to either. For a personal example, I like to compare Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld. Both are complex. random-focused and unforgiving games, and Rimworld doesn't exactly have a great interface, but it puts in *some* effort towards making new players not immediately bounce off the game, and has enjoyed real commercial success while DF can never grow beyond being a niche cult classic because it... really does not.

Also: Nobody reads manuals, and tutorials that aren't smoothly integrated into gameplay or try to force the player to learn everything at once are largely worthless.

having learned DF complexity i think rimword is too simple for my liking, but i can understand why people like it more. Its because it takes less time to learn.

now derek's game could easily double its sales by having better UI. There was moment during space battle where UC actually looked fun and hectic.
But then you were forced to navigate menus for minutes, that isnt fun. That is equivalent to airlock cycling in SC. in both cases your wasting player's time.
Hell even derek was confused for few seconds when his cheat menu was messing up his attempt to beam troops down to planet surface.
That could have been avoided by having proper cheat menu somewhere. Hell even having cheats as console commands would have been better.
It is fantastic that derek likes to go routes other developers arent going. For example allowing players to spawn anywhere in LOD is pretty novel Idea for fps (someone should copy it). But with UI you should really look at what other developers do, it would multiply your sales.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:31

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# ? May 30, 2024 17:24

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

D_Smart posted:

How about no? And gently caress you? Trying to tell me how to I choose to respond to something.

loving Nazis.

Didn't you say, in this very thread, that you would stop calling people Nazis?

# ? Oct 1, 2017 19:38

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