|
Sinteres posted:They don't actually have that right in this case. Yeah and that's why they'll go out and Spain is working hard to make it look like they should in this case. Thankfully not every vote is as dumb as brexit.
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 03:27 |
|
|
Sinteres posted:There's also an underlying FYGM sentiment among some separatists though, who don't want to be burdened with poorer parts of the country anymore. Let me quote myself Dawncloack posted:A law makes it so that no airline can have a spot in the Barcelona airport if they don't purchase a spot in Madrid too. Just some examples. Edit: Phlegmish posted:Spain is once more in a dark place right now. VVV Orange devil, come on, I agree with you but lay off the ad hominem. Pedro argues from the perspective he grew up with, just like every single one of us. That said, Pedro, you could answer me and tell me why you care about the law so much when a good 20 articles of the constitution are ignored regularly. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Pedro De Heredia posted:I agree with all of that. Obviously Rajoy is an incompetent idiot who has severely and dramatically mishandled this whole issue for years. Hey look an anti-Catalan independence Spaniard who believes governments matter more than people. You are what is wrong with Spain, by the way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:I hear this often, and I do not thing it's true. It's Madrid leeching the entire country. Snipping out the part where I said Madrid fucks Barcelona to tell me that Madrid fucks over Barcelona was a weird choice. I agree that the national government bears a lot of responsibility for this with unequal policies that line the pockets of their own constituents rather than actually treating the whole country like it's something that matters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:Hey look an anti-Catalan independence Spaniard who believes governments matter more than people. I'm not Spanish.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:46
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Snipping out the part where I said Madrid fucks Barcelona to tell me that Madrid fucks over Barcelona was a weird choice. I agree that the national government bears a lot of responsibility for this with unequal policies that line the pockets of their own constituents rather than actually treating the whole country like it's something that matters. Sorry, now that I take a look at it it looks weird. I apologize. It's just that the Spanish media and troll farms will regularly say "the Catalans don't want solidarity amongst the regions" when what's going on is that Madrid is a leech. I don't see that FYGM the catalans are acused of, is all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:48
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:It has always been about money, no matter how we sugar coat it, that's the real problem. I see this FYGM argument come up often, and I think it's only a small part part of the story. You just don't get a popular mass movement like that by only invoking economic arguments. In Belgium, there are absolutely massive transfers going on from Flanders to the rest of the country, yet the Flemish separatist movement is nowhere near as popular and well-organized as that of Catalonia (Belgium will almost certainly cease to exist at some point in the future, but it won't be due to the separatists). It seems to me that in Catalonia, it's the historical and cultural arguments that pack the biggest punch.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:Sorry, now that I take a look at it it looks weird. I apologize. To be fair it's not like I've personally spoken with a lot of Catalans, so I could be parroting a negative stereotype that isn't true. If so, I apologize for that too. I guess I'm mostly suspicious of regional separatism because it obviously coincides with ethnic separatism. If Catalans can't coexist with Spaniards, and Scottish can't live with the English, what the hell are the odds that Greeks and Germans or any number of countries and their immigrant populations are going to make it? It's just weird to see these long established countries on the verge of splintering at the same time we're meant to believe in these experiments which are far less proven than the nation state. That applies regardless of which side is to blame; if the dominant nationality just treats the region like poo poo and provokes this response, what makes us think human nature can be overcome and this cycle can be avoided in the future?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 18:55
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:To be fair it's not like I've personally spoken with a lot of Catalans, so I could be parroting a negative stereotype that isn't true. If so, I apologize for that too. I guess I'm mostly suspicious of regional separatism because it obviously coincides with ethnic separatism. If Catalans can't coexist with Spaniards, and Scottish can't live with the English, what the hell are the odds that Greeks and Germans or any number of countries and their immigrant populations are going to make it? It's just weird to see these long established countries on the verge of splintering at the same time we're meant to believe in these experiments which are far less proven than the nation state. That applies regardless of which side is to blame; if the dominant nationality just treats the region like poo poo and provokes this response, what makes us think human nature can be overcome and this cycle can be avoided in the future? To me it all boils down to very, very lacking instruments to control the executive. We can't kick politicians out when they gently caress up, there's no accountability if they manage badly, and hardly if they steal, only after 4 or 5 years can we vote them out, at which point they'll have done other things and many will vote on those (or pure tribalism frankly). And the experiments fare even worse on this one, what with the EU being an outgrowth of a cartel. blah gently caress this stupid edit: human nature can't overcome anything, it's just not adapted to modern civilization. There's literally no one at the helm. We are hosed and the environmental collapse will kill every single one of us. VVVVVVVV I see your point now. Thanks for taking the time. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:03
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:That said, Pedro, you could answer me and tell me why you care about the law so much when a good 20 articles of the constitution are ignored regularly. It depends on what you mean by 'care'. I brought up the law initially in response to someone who said that the Spanish government was breaking the law and therefore all European Union countries should cease a relationship with Spain immediately. I said that's not going to happen, because Spain is (technically) acting under its law, and the Catalan government isn't, and the EU is going to back that. This is broadly true. The statements by EU countries and officials back this up: they might criticize the violence of the state (understandably), and they might call for 'democratic' solutions to a 'constitutional crisis', but I think so far EU countries haven't said 'Spain, recognize the legality of this vote', both because it isn't legal and because it probably shouldn't be legal in these terms. If you personally believe that Spanish Constitution and Spanish law is essentially worthless, then sure, this referendum makes sense. If you don't think you are going to get a legal referendum under any circumstances, then sure, holding this referendum (and declaring independence unilaterally afterwards) makes sense. You are free to believe that. But, it's a very extreme position (at least when compared to what most nations currently believe). It won't be easy at all to persuade other nations that Spanish law is so worthless that you should just unilaterally secede, even after the scenes of violence that we've just seen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Of all the different ways the Spanish government could have gone about dealing with this, they have somehow picked the only one which strengthens the Catalan independence movement. Simply give the Catalan region some extra devolved powers and the whole issue would be reduced to something a few hardliners grumble about. Sending in government thugs to bash in the heads of peaceful civilians is going to inflame the region. Imagine if this was how the UK treated Scotland, the Scots would have voted 80%+ for independence.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:07
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I see this FYGM argument come up often, and I think it's only a small part part of the story. You just don't get a popular mass movement like that by only invoking economic arguments. In Belgium, there are absolutely massive transfers going on from Flanders to the rest of the country, yet the Flemish separatist movement is nowhere near as popular and well-organized as that of Catalonia (Belgium will almost certainly cease to exist at some point in the future, but it won't be due to the separatists). It seems to me that in Catalonia, it's the historical and cultural arguments that pack the biggest punch. I agree that I oversimplified the problem and is far more complicated and nuanced than just money, but whenever I speak with people about this, there are many statements that get repeated over and over again, like "Madrid steals from us", "We get much less than what we give" and the like. Many people don't go deeper than this. I've had the impression for years that the core of independentists grievances are about money, especially since the economic crisis that started in 2008 and the movement snowballed in strength since then, the government has promised that everything will be better after independence is declared and many people seems ready to take their word for it. Of course I'm probably wrong because I speak without hard data.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:07
|
|
|
The reason the economic argument keeps resurging is not because it's the sole motivator (that's laughable) but because it means the secessionists are acting from a position of strength rather than weakness. They are not dependent on their perceived oppressors. To characterize this as greed is stupid because this is an adage as old as the concept of secession itself. For the opposite, see most of the former Sovjet bloc who all firmly hate the EU these days but happily stay anyway because their economies are shitcanned without EU aid. The economic argument doesn't even necessarily have to be true as could be seen with Brexit. It's just one of many arguments put forward to argue the same point of "you need us more than we need you".
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:12
|
|
|
Would an independent Catalonia - out of Spain and out of the EU - be operating from a position of economic strength?
Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Would an independent Catalonia - out of Spain and out of the EU - be operating from a position of economic strength? Probably not on many respects, but it would have an independent monetary policy. And considering just how utterly loving stupid the monetary construct in the EU is, that's a pretty big strength. Edit: I reflected your edit. Also, yeah, no, economically it wouldn't be no smooth sailing. But there would be no one to tell them "stop speaking your stupid language and become Castillian".
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:The reason the economic argument keeps resurging is not because it's the sole motivator (that's laughable) but because it means the secessionists are acting from a position of strength rather than weakness. They are not dependent on their perceived oppressors. To characterize this as greed is stupid because this is an adage as old as the concept of secession itself. For the opposite, see most of the former Sovjet bloc who all firmly hate the EU these days but happily stay anyway because their economies are shitcanned without EU aid. I think this is a fair assessment. Money is nowhere near to being the primary motivator, but Catalonia's economic success makes Catalans more likely to take the plunge.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:22
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I see this FYGM argument come up often, and I think it's only a small part part of the story. You just don't get a popular mass movement like that by only invoking economic arguments. It's not that small. After a decade of austerity, low growth, increased poverty all over the European Union, we have seen 1) an almost successful attempt by Scotland to leave the United Kingdom, 2) a successful attempt by the United Kingdom to leave the European Union, and 3) an ongoing attempt by the Catalan region to secede from Spain. It's not a coincidence. The economic conditions are the soil in which this kind of nationalism can grow so much. Catalans wouldn't be risking military and political retaliation just to speak their language more than they already do. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
So you'd say that the EU's economic policies are the heart of all these inestability? Because I'd agree with that 150%.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:30
|
|
|
Pedro De Heredia posted:It's not that small. All of the cases you are referring to wanted to do their secessions due to perceived economic strength, not weakness. You're right about the timing not being coincidental but the causality you're seeing is just not there. These three cases all had wildly different reasons for what why they are doing what they are doing. Dawncloack posted:So you'd say that the EU's economic policies are the heart of all these inestability? Because I'd agree with that 150%. It definitely isn't making the situation any better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Germany was a nation, just not a state. The way I see it, there are three distinct concepts: - nation (people who feel like they belong together) - country (territory) - state (a legal and administrative construct) The nation-state is when these three distinct concepts are largely agreeing with each other -- the state governs a country populated by the nation represented by the state. Problems arise when you have several different nations populating the same territory, or when the state does not represent the nation it governs, etc. Truga posted:Why the gently caress do nation states even still exist in 2017? Because a nation-state is the most powerful system humans have ever invented. You might think it'd be better to abolish the state and live in self-regulated libertarian villages; but all that would mean would be that the one country that remained a nation-state would invade and enslave you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:All of the cases you are referring to wanted to do their secessions due to perceived economic strength, not weakness. You're right about the timing not being coincidental but the causality you're seeing is just not there. These three cases all had wildly different reasons for what why they are doing what they are doing. These regions might have economic strenghts relative to other regions or countries, but (at least UK and Catalonia) they were in economic weakness relative to their previous state. The argument "let's use the money we give to the EU for the NHS instead" is an argument that is persuasive when people are afraid about the ability of the NHS to survive (in the face of worsening conditions in the UK), not as much if they think the NHS is doing great but could do better. "Spain is robbing us" is an argument that is persuasive in the face of deep cuts to Social Security and public spending in the region, not as much when your economy is booming. It's the difference between 'wanting more' and 'protecting what you have before its taken from you'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:38
|
|
|
So https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live Spanish PM claims that "there is no goon" as Pollong stations begin to close. when will we see the results of the referendum?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/status/914131859654639616 the good law abiding citizens of Madrid protesting against the murderous illegal hordes of Catlunya
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
Actually, it's good to charge polling stations and beat the poo poo out of hundreds of people, because the referendum was illegal (as decided by us  ).
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:52
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Because a nation-state is the most powerful system humans have ever invented. You might think it'd be better to abolish the state and live in self-regulated libertarian villages; but all that would mean would be that the one country that remained a nation-state would invade and enslave you. But I'm not saying we should abolish people cooperating to have security and infrastructure. Basing states on anything beyond "people" is dumb af, especially in the 21st century, and it inevitably leads to some sort of oppression. If county a wants to become country a, that's entirely up to them, and there's no mechanism that prevents them from working with their neighbours just as they have when they were a county (they'll probably get a rougher deal, see my comment about 80% in an earlier post), other than really loving dumb humans being butthurt over a region on a map having a different name. Maybe Spain should have a referendumb "do you care about what our country looks like on a loving drawn up map", see nobody cares, and let people do what the gently caress they want instead of this poo poo. But no, are integrity/unity  e: what i'm saying is, federalize the EU asap, we can bomb the nazis after we do that too. Truga fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:53
|
|
|
skipThings posted:https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/status/914131859654639616  rememeber Catalonia stood against fascism and lost. so no wonder why the spanazis would sing their hitler anthem in madrid. gently caress em. I cant wait for catalan to declar independence
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
Truga posted:Basing states on anything beyond "people" is dumb af, especially in the 21st century, and it inevitably leads to some sort of oppression. Can you elaborate what a state based on only "people" would mean exactly? How it would work? What it would mean in the daily life of an average Joe or Jane?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:07
|
|
|
Truga posted:e: what i'm saying is, federalize the EU asap, we can bomb the nazis after we do that too. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:08
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:The way I see it, there are three distinct concepts: TL;DR: If you want a multi-nation state, you either have to give up on the idea of political and cultural centralization, or go repressive. Historical empires have probably done a bit of both, but obviously if you want a proper democratic state you're gonna have to give up on the repressive solution. skipThings posted:https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/status/914131859654639616
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:14
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:Make it even passably democratic first, ah? Oh certainly. Cat Mattress posted:Can you elaborate what a state based on only "people" would mean exactly? How it would work? What it would mean in the daily life of an average Joe or Jane? It doubt anyone would notice any difference in their daily lives inside the schengen area. You'd just get less "welcome to county x" and more "welcome to country x" signposts on the autobahn.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:17
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Note that this is apparently the anthem of the Falangists, the fascists that Franco sidelined for being a bit too extreme. Funny that they sing the anthem and do the roman salute, yet none of them seem to be wearing blue shirts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
Kopijeger posted:Funny that they sing the anthem and do the roman salute, yet none of them seem to be wearing blue shirts. I don't get your point, mind clarifying?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
It's like no one's ever heard of Ernst Renan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:31
|
|
|
Also in Madrid, at the Puerta del Sol, people demonstrating against the violence and in solidarity with Catalonia: https://twitter.com/ctxt_es/status/914555767910432775
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:34
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:I don't get your point, mind clarifying? Simply that dark blue shirts are a symbol of the Falangist movement, like black and brown shirts are associated with Italian Fascism and German National Socialism respectively. In this video you can see falangist fanboys wearing such shirts while singing the anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWJ1vZvlNIQ. Kopijeger fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:34
|
|
|
With 700+ people hurt, it's a miracle no one died today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:39
|
|
Phlegmish posted:With 700+ people hurt, it's a miracle no one died today. *according to Catalan sources
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:40
|
|
|
GC can't get over the fact that Messi is better than Ronaldo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
[quote="“GaussianCopula”" post="“476950876”"] *according to Catalan sources [/quote] Why would Catalan sources lie about nobody during today??
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 03:27 |
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:*according to Catalan sources Exact numbers don't really matter that much at this point, we can all agreed that a lot of people got hurt today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:42
|
|