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Condiv posted:imo, the most important gun control at the moment is getting guns out of the hands of cops Agreed. This is something I've advocated many times.
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Oct 6, 2017 20:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Why do you think the knife, poison, automobile, airline, and explosives industries in America haven't collapsed?
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Oct 6, 2017 20:53
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't trust and am uninterested in moral intuitions. you misspelled "incapable" you stupid piece of poo poo
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Oct 6, 2017 20:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Seriously though how would those examples differ from the 2016 case where the act in question was found inapplicable? quote:If you've got all this evidence that the manufacturer was intentionally trying to conspire to sell guns for use in crimes, why aren't you filing criminal charges against these hypothetical rat poison salesmen Because the statistical case for the lawsuit only actually exists for the gun industry and the law in question specifically exempts them from that legal argument. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well, a lot of reasons, but as relevant to this context, that there isn't so much intentional misuse of their products to the point that there are large numbers of lawsuits about it. Which is why the "this sets a dangerous precedent" arguments are spurious.
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Oct 6, 2017 20:56
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Condiv posted:imo, the most important gun control at the moment is getting guns out of the hands of cops Sure, cops and other civilians should not be armed.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Political power comes out the barrel of a gun, comrade. The Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the parry. The Democratic Party must established an armed wing and use training cadres to negate the political power of the NRA. To get rid of the gun, it is necessary to take up the gun.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:03
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Gort posted:Sure, cops and other civilians should not be armed. i think arms for hunting are fine, but open carry shouldn't exist, and handguns and semi-automatics should be banned
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Oct 6, 2017 21:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Those situations were specific incidents of pre-meditation in the sale. Ok but why wouldn't this count then Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:- After being made aware of the fact that over 90% of their sales of a certain gun were being used in crimes, the manufacturer decided to actually increase the stock of this gun because it was "one of the best-sellers at this location." So at that point they've been generally notified but not specifically notified that a specifc gun was going to be used in a crime? And that isn't enough under the PLCAA? If so, ok, yeah, that sounds like a problem with the law, but that one case by itself doesn't necessarily mean Bernie was wrong to vote for the law. That was one case out of over thirty, and a lot of the other cases (at least, from what I can tell via google -- you're getting a LOT more fact specific than any of the cites I've been able to find) did not rest on such firm ground intent-wise, but rather relied on things like suing trade associations for "promoting the idea -- which he labeled as false -- that handgun ownership is an effective means of personal protection" , or for just generally selling guns at all given that guns were harmful. It could have been that Bernie saw the 2005 act as preventing a bunch of meritless nuisance lawsuits designed to bleed the industry based on relatively meritless claims, which wouldn't be entirely wrong, even if some fraction of those claims did turn out to have merit. Legislations' complicated and no bill is ever perfect. That's why it's hard for legislators to run for office, every vote gets dissected. After all, it wasn't just Bernie -- there were over fifty democrats in the House who voted for that bill. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 21:07
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Condiv posted:i think arms for hunting are fine, but open carry shouldn't exist, and handguns and semi-automatics should be banned Even in the UK farmers get to have guns, but cops are not routinely armed
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Oct 6, 2017 21:09
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Rigel posted:Generally speaking, the courts have held that the law does not contain useless, frivolous text unless they have no choice but to assume it does. Aside from introductory paragraphs and preambles, usually when you get to the "law" part of the law, its pretty straightforward without explanations. If you want an explanation, go to the congressional record. If you are convicted of doing this, the penalty is that, this department gets this much money for FY2018 and they may spend it on these items, the Federal government is forbidden from doing this to people, etc. Condiv posted:i think arms for hunting are fine, but open carry shouldn't exist, and handguns and semi-automatics should be banned
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Oct 6, 2017 21:11
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Gort posted:Even in the UK farmers get to have guns i think it's important to point out cause a couple of days ago people in this thread were pushing for total firearm bans and saying that hunting shouldn't be a thing anymore and we should just make sure everyone has food assistance or something. that's too far imo
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Oct 6, 2017 21:11
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Condiv posted:i think it's important to point out cause a couple of days ago people in this thread were pushing for total firearm bans and saying that hunting shouldn't be a thing anymore and we should just make sure everyone has food assistance or something. Yep, I brought it up that "NO GUNS EVER" is getting overly whacky when hunting still exists and is a really good way to keep your freezer stocked if you live out in the country, a bunch who do so being people that can't afford constant trips back and forth for groceries. Thankfully that topic went pretty well, like there's not really anyone who needs to hunt or else they just die, but hunting is absolutely a good way to be more self-sufficient in a bunch of places, along with growing your own vegetables and things like that.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:22
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A real big issue with gun control is that we don't really have a great idea of what regulations will actually reduce gun-related crime, which at least to me is the real goal. A large part of that is due to a complete resistance to even figuring that out. If you check out TFR they're going to break their arms patting themselves on the back for having a great conversation about gun control but they won't even admit that we have a problem in the US, it's just the price that we pay for freedom. Also I don't recall anybody saying that hunting shouldn't be a thing anymore.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:22
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Have some corporate synergy to make your wall crawling skin crawl: https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/916317209017937920
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Oct 6, 2017 21:29
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captainblastum posted:A real big issue with gun control is that we don't really have a great idea of what regulations will actually reduce gun-related crime, which at least to me is the real goal. A large part of that is due to a complete resistance to even figuring that out. If you check out TFR they're going to break their arms patting themselves on the back for having a great conversation about gun control but they won't even admit that we have a problem in the US, it's just the price that we pay for freedom. To your first point, there isn't any significant correlation between the strictness of gun laws and gun related crime, either geographically or over time. I graphed all 50 States' UCR homicide rate from 2014 against their 2014 Brady Campaign scores published in 2015:  (The Brady Campaign doesn't score Washington DC, because boy would that be embarrassing.) There's no correlation. Kind of telling that Arizona and California have homicide rates that differ by less than 7%, despite being the highest and lowest scoring states. A lot of pro gun control people will try to flim-flam listeners by pointing out tenuous connections between availability of firearms and "firearm deaths", but they never actually address overall rates of homicide and assault because the numbers don't stack up. You're more likely to be murdered in California than in Idaho, but if you do get murdered in Idaho, it's more likely that your assailant used a gun than if you had been murdered in California, if that distinction is super important to you. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 21:39
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Too bad the CDC is banned from studying it.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:40
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Has Tillerson been shitcanned yet? This gun control discussion has been taking over the entire thread for days.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:42
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Lemming posted:Too bad the CDC is banned from studying it.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:45
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Yardbomb posted:Yep, I brought it up that "NO GUNS EVER" is getting overly whacky when hunting still exists and is a really good way to keep your freezer stocked if you live out in the country, a bunch who do so being people that can't afford constant trips back and forth for groceries. Thankfully that topic went pretty well, like there's not really anyone who needs to hunt or else they just die, but hunting is absolutely a good way to be more self-sufficient in a bunch of places, along with growing your own vegetables and things like that. There's also the whole fact that bolt-action guns would probably be the worst guns for a killing spree unless you made some hilarious rude goldberg reloading device. At the point that you're advocating against hunting rifles you're purely doing it out of contempt for the midwest than for actual safety. (for anyone curious: don't own a single gun, though if I did it would be the Mosin-Nagant purely for historical reasons)
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Oct 6, 2017 21:54
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Main Paineframe posted:Has Tillerson been shitcanned yet? This gun control discussion has been taking over the entire thread for days. Nnnnnope. It's been a whole lot of "oh he's gonna be gone any day now" without anything to show for it.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:54
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't trust and am uninterested in moral intuitions. that is apparent
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Oct 6, 2017 21:58
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I don't see why it's a problem for some people.Neurolimal posted:There's also the whole fact that bolt-action guns would probably be the worst guns for a killing spree unless you made some hilarious rude goldberg reloading device.  for graphic picture of a dead Charles Whitman.)Hypothetically, if we banned all semi autos, and then this happened, would the pro gun control side take the position that, "no, although this is tragic, we've done enough, we don't need to ban more guns"?
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Oct 6, 2017 22:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't understand the relevance to the Eric Garner case, where the sum total of my opinion is, "jurors being unwilling to put forward charges is not a justicable problem, and not one we can solve without effectively doing away with the jury system, which I think is a bad idea." it turns out industries being opposed by lobbies on the grounds their products kill people has a precedent, friend still find it fascinating that police getting to murder people on a whim for selling loosies is the system functioning as designed for you, but confiscating guns, WHOO boy, step too far
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Oct 6, 2017 22:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't see why it's a problem for some people. In all fairness, I think it would be harder to pull off a 96 minute shooting spree today than in 1966. E: for comparison, the Vegas shooting happened in about 10 minutes and change. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 22:07
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't see why it's a problem for some people. Probably a good thing that he didn't have access to an AR-15, then, huh?
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Oct 6, 2017 22:12
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Stereotype posted:I think the discussion on gun control after this most recent shooting should be a maximum quantity that you can own/possess at once. It would have stopped this shooting, it would be relatively enforceable (though you need a national registry to prevent purchases over the limit), and it is "common sense." No one needs 33 high powered rifles. Accumulating many of anything is hoarding, and hoarding is a recognized mental illness. Ze Pollack posted:it turns out industries being opposed by lobbies on the grounds their products kill people has a precedent, friend Majorian posted:Probably a good thing that he didn't have access to an AR-15, then, huh?
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Oct 6, 2017 22:19
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Neurolimal posted:In all fairness, I think it would be harder to pull off a 96 minute shooting spree today than in 1966. Again, this whole "well, maybe if we place rules about what sort of firearms people are allowed to use on their rampage" thing is missing the forest for the trees because the only solution a lot of people can grasp for gun violence is, "ban certain guns."
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Oct 6, 2017 22:26
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Wrong, my solution is to ban Dead Reckoning,
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Oct 6, 2017 22:28
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Does DR even have a proposal to deal with gun violence? Or cops shooting unarmed people?
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Oct 6, 2017 22:31
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RevKrule posted:Have some corporate synergy to make your wall crawling skin crawl: They better be announcing iron Man suits you can buy for personal use. Don't need to regulate guns if everyone is bullet proof.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:31
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Does DR even have a proposal to deal with gun violence? Or cops shooting unarmed people? Those are features, not problems.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:34
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Does DR even have a proposal to deal with gun violence? Or cops shooting unarmed people? -Increase availability of mental health care -Decrease stigma of mental illness (probably not possible.)
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Oct 6, 2017 22:35
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Does DR even have a proposal to deal with gun violence? Or cops shooting unarmed people? "the problems are bad. but the causes... the causes are very good!"
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Oct 6, 2017 22:35
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Dead Reckoning posted:He had a semi automatic rifle with him, but it turns out that the rifle you would use for deer or elk is entirely sufficient for killing humans when you put a lot of thought into your murder spree. Again, trying to limit mass shootings by playing whack-a-mole with what sort of weapon the perpetrator can use is foolish when we could actually address the problems that cause people to become mass shooters in the first place. No he didn't, he had an M1 Carbine which fires underpowered .30 and is pretty loving useless for that sort of standoff shooting. And he killed 15 people in the course of 96 minutes instead of ~60 in the course of 17 minutes. Trying to argue that a bolt action rifle is as effective at mass killing as a AR15 or similar with 30rnd box magazines is dumb as poo poo.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:39
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Dead Reckoning posted:One of the most famous American mass shootings was carried out primarily with a bolt action rifle and a 12 ga shotgun. ( Whitman was an accomplished marine marksman, your average whoever's unlikely to be nailing people with a bolt action with the efficiency he had. "During Whitman's initial 18-month service in 1959 and 1960, he earned a Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, a Sharpshooter's Badge, and the Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal. He achieved 215 of 250 possible points on marksmanship tests, doing well when shooting rapidly over long distances as well as at moving targets." Also Jarmak posted:No he didn't, he had an M1 Carbine which fires underpowered .30 and is pretty loving useless for that sort of standoff shooting. And he killed 15 people in the course of 96 minutes instead of ~60 in the course of 17 minutes. Trying to argue that a bolt action rifle is as effective at mass killing as a AR15 or similar with 30rnd box magazines is dumb as poo poo. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Oct 6, 2017 |
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Oct 6, 2017 22:41
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Jarmak jumping into a conversation about guns right after DR is not surprising, but he's doing it to call him a dumbass?!?! 
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Oct 6, 2017 22:42
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[quote="“Lemming”" post="“477128228”"] Jarmak jumping into a conversation about guns right after DR is not surprising, but he’s doing it to call him a dumbass?!?! [/quote] There's been a break in the space-time continuum. I always though they were the same person.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:46
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[quote="“Dead Reckoning”" post="“477128002”"] -Decrease poverty -Increase availability of mental health care -Decrease stigma of mental illness (probably not possible.) [/quote] Poor folks, handle your poo poo so cops don't shoot you.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:48
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Jarmak posted:No he didn't, he had an M1 Carbine which fires underpowered .30 and is pretty loving useless for that sort of standoff shooting. Nevvy Z posted:That's why we get rid of EVERYONE's guns. Potato Salad posted:eat poo poo Trabisnikof posted:Because as an absolute, the law against murder restricts my freedom to lash out angrily. "All freedoms, drat the cost" is Might Makes Right and so yeah it is a pretty monsterous ideology. "Laws should be narrowly tailored to use the least restrictive means to achieve legitimate government purposes, and should actually significantly achieve those ends." - clearly the thought process of a sociopath. Doctor Butts posted:"Hey I didn't come here to argue about how to best control gun violence. I'm just here to tell you that guns aren't the problem and you should not do anything to prevent people from getting any kind of weapon" We already know what we have to do to control violence. Remember those charts of gun ownership vs homicide rate with no correlation? Here's one for you:  Both across states and internationally, poverty is strongly correlated with violence. You could give bazookas and machine guns to every citizen of Luxembourg or Monaco, and they aren't going to run out of their homes to reenact Team Fortress on the cobblestone streets. I haven't done a chart for income inequality, but I would be unsurprised to see a correlation. At the end of the day, solving violence involves addressing the intractable issues that drive a lot of other social maladies, but you can't blame rednecks for that (except by screaming at them that they voted wrong.)
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Oct 6, 2017 22:48
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C2C - 2.0 posted:There's been a break in the space-time continuum. 
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Oct 6, 2017 22:54
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