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chernobyl kinsman posted:also it is sincerely okay if not every religious institution adheres to progressive ideas about sexuality
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Oct 8, 2017 11:53
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chernobyl kinsman posted:crazy, almost like the church doesn't see the liberation and normalization of lgbt people as a desirable goal in the way that you do Why would God have made them if it were licit for the majority to torture them? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Oct 8, 2017 |
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Oct 8, 2017 11:56
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chernobyl kinsman posted:sure, I agree. I'm just pushing the matter a bit hard here because I have no patience for arguments that the church ought to change its stance on x, y or z issue because of [consequentialist argument], and because senju is easy to get worked up. yeah i sure do have some personal issues with the catholic church's teachings on lgbt people because i used to be lgbt and catholic and almost became a priest because i refused to really examine the underlying reason why having a sexual and romantic relationship with a woman was completely and totally unappealing boy i hope you don't act like this to gay and or trans kids oh yeah i'm also livid about dead children and adults, what a great troll
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Oct 8, 2017 14:38
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It's never a good sign when there's 50+ posts in this thread overnight. For my part as this thread's resident Southern Baptist by theology, I hew to "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Jesus said it's not our place to judge and deem someone damned or saved, so I believe that God is a god of mercy, love, and kindness.
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Oct 8, 2017 14:40
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The Phlegmatist posted:How do you not know who Edward Feser is. Reading Feser is like the first step for arguing about Natural Law on the internet. edward "waifu marriage is more real than gay marriage" fesser 
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Oct 8, 2017 14:43
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Man, I was hoping there was a really interesting discussion about justice going on 
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Oct 8, 2017 14:43
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Bel_Canto posted:edward "waifu marriage is more real than gay marriage" fesser Imagine four apples on the edge of a cliff. The gay agenda works the same way. e: show me in the canon law where it says I can't marry an anime The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 8, 2017 |
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Oct 8, 2017 15:07
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Bel_Canto posted:edward "waifu marriage is more real than gay marriage" fesser I get what he's trying to say, but this is the dumbest metaphor for it. Is it better to be good at maths or have a firm grasp of reality? Yeah, I just don't know, man.
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Oct 8, 2017 15:12
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Worthleast posted:Man, I was hoping there was a really interesting discussion about justice going on we talked about waifus instead
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Oct 8, 2017 15:19
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Can we go back to talking about funny hats? Or posting pictures of monks and animals?
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Oct 8, 2017 15:48
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Thirteen Orphans posted:WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT ABORTION PLEASE DON'T GET OUR THREAD GASSED. I wish it would be This thread is a testament to my iniquities
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Oct 8, 2017 17:06
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Paladinus posted:I get what he's trying to say, but this is the dumbest metaphor for it. Is it better to be good at maths or have a firm grasp of reality? Yeah, I just don't know, man. Feser is pretty good at explaining difficult philosophical concepts to a lay audience but drat is he obsessed with playing banal logic games like this.
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Oct 8, 2017 17:06
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Slimy Hog posted:Can we go back to talking about funny hats? I can offer only one of the three, but I hope it's interesting nonetheless: the semantron is a percussion instrument that's used in many Orthodox monasteries as a call for prayer or during processions. Here's a video of a Romanian monk who plays a pretty mean semantron Also this is more directed at Pellisworth, but I just finished reading this America piece about Black Elk, a Lakota medicine man who went on to become a Catholic teacher and missionary. The local diocese hopes to open up a canonisation process for him. What's your take on the issues raised by some in this regard that this would constitute an appropriation of Lakota culture by the Church? The article also mentions that the Diocese of Rapid City "uses smudging, the Native practice of burning sage or cedar for purification, and the Lakota Four Direction Song at the Chrism Mass". Could you elaborate a bit more on these practices, they sound fascinating? And do the Episcopalians do that as well? 
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Oct 8, 2017 17:14
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System Metternich posted:I can offer only one of the three, but I hope it's interesting nonetheless: the semantron is a percussion instrument that's used in many Orthodox monasteries as a call for prayer or during processions. Here's a video of a Romanian monk who plays a pretty mean semantron This is incredible.
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Oct 8, 2017 18:30
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Re: condemnation and stuff: in a perfectly spherical church, isn't condemning sins cause people who sin emotional distress? Also, that apple analogy is... ugh... how is marrying an anime more logically possible than marrying a person who solidly exists?
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Oct 8, 2017 19:27
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He's saying that having the correct conception of marriage is more important than having the correct conception of who you're going to marry. Or put another way, changing the meaning of "marriage" as a sacred institution into something incompatible with God's plan is way worse than a personal delusion about who you're going to marry. I find his position vile on its merits, but it makes perfect sense.
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Oct 8, 2017 19:33
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System Metternich posted:Also this is more directed at Pellisworth, but I just finished reading this America piece about Black Elk, a Lakota medicine man who went on to become a Catholic teacher and missionary. The local diocese hopes to open up a canonisation process for him. What's your take on the issues raised by some in this regard that this would constitute an appropriation of Lakota culture by the Church? The article also mentions that the Diocese of Rapid City "uses smudging, the Native practice of burning sage or cedar for purification, and the Lakota Four Direction Song at the Chrism Mass". Could you elaborate a bit more on these practices, they sound fascinating? And do the Episcopalians do that as well? Well, I'm neither Lakota nor Catholic so I can't speak to whether or how it amounts to cultural appropriation. In practice, modern Lakota beliefs lie on a spectrum from fully pagan/traditional (explicitly not Christian) to irreligious to syncretic Christianity like the article is describing. Many Lakota are Catholic while participating in some traditional practices and beliefs such as the sweat lodge ceremony or a deep reverence/veneration for Grandmother Earth (unci maka). It's important to put this all in the context of the last ~150 years since the Lakota were settled on reservations. Several of their leaders recognized the importance of a Western education for the future of their people. Spotted Tail famously was so impressed by the Jesuits when he visited Washington DC that he specifically requested they come teach the Lakota. That went alright for a couple decades until the US federal government adopted harsh policies suppressing Native culture and forcing integration. Practice of Native religion and ceremonies was banned and went underground, Lakota children were shipped off to boarding schools (many Catholic-run) where their culture and language were literally beaten out of them. The Catholic Church was complicit in this (as the article points out) and hasn't done much to apologize or reconcile with the Native peoples they helped oppress. Boarding and mission schools continued into the 1970s, many Lakota of my parents' generation went through boarding schools and have a very negative opinion of the US gov't and Catholic Church as a result. In the last two or three decades there has been a lot of pushback from traditional Lakota teachers and groups to reclaim Lakota language, culture, and spirituality. Previously almost all written resources were by white people, often missionaries, so existing literature often didn't match genuine beliefs or had a strong bias. In terms of cultural appropriation, there are a lot of traditional beliefs that were whitewashed or otherwise adapted to fit with Christianity. Again I can't really comment directly on what constitutes appropriation vs. syncretic religion, but here are some examples. Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit / Great Mystery / Grandfather Spirit is often equated with Christian God the Father but in reality it's quite a different concept and traditional Lakota religion is polytheistic and involves ancestor veneration (I dunno about ancestor worship per se). White Buffalo Calf Woman is a legendary Lakota figure who taught the Lakota seven sacred rites (such as the ceremonial smoking of the peace pipe, sweat lodge, etc) and promised to return one day. So she gets equated with Jesus or Moses. There are definitely Lakota who would be upset about the canonization of Black Elk since you're honoring someone who played a role in erasure of their traditional culture. I guess my main point would be that Lakota Christian syncretic beliefs are quite distinct from traditional Lakota spirituality and the Church should be careful not to suppress the latter by omission. Lakota are suuuper into burning sage during ceremonies and events, I'm not aware of specific sage-burning rituals but they probably exist. In my experience it's pretty much like incense and I've only ever seen it done outdoors during dance season. During the summer months every town/village or even individual family groups will set up a semi-circular awning of cedar branches for shade and hold dances, feasts, and events in the center. There's always a couple people walking around the circle with burning sage. We don't do it inside our Episcopal Church and I suspect that's for fire safety or health reasons but I'm not sure. Pretty much any outdoor event will have sage burning, though. I see a dude selling bundles of sage for $1 each on my way to work each day if you want some  Sage burning has been appropriated by a lot of New Age hippies who post YouTube videos on how to purify your house by burning sage. All I know is that burning sage is right up there with feasts, dancing, handshakes, sweatlodge, and drum circles in terms of things Lakota love to do, and I've never seen it done indoors. We have elders and sometimes kids say prayers in Lakota during worship. The four cardinal directions each have a color associated with them (red yellow white and black) and a ton of spiritual significance. Honestly singing that song seems really close to paganism to me since each direction is associated with different spiritual beings and parts of Lakota cosmology. Unless Catholics are cool with praying to the thunder spirits in the west, or their ancestor star-people to the South? Your question is kinda timely, tomorrow is Native American Day
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Oct 8, 2017 19:47
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i wish an orthodox native alaskan would show up in this thread
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Oct 8, 2017 19:56
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Pellisworth posted:Unless Catholics are cool with praying to the thunder spirits in the west, or their ancestor star-people to the South?
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Oct 8, 2017 19:57
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We Catholics haven't reached the Imperial Cult-level of incorporation of local beliefs... yet.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:02
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Hey, credit where it is due - we incorporated an actual imperial cult into the rite sixteen hundred years ago.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I find his position vile on its merits, but it makes perfect sense. In this particular case it really doesn't since I can neither marry a man nor an anime body pillow in the Roman Catholic Church. And it's not like one would be more logical than the other because same-sex marriage is not marriage and human-anime body pillow marriage is also not marriage according the Church. Pellisworth posted:In terms of cultural appropriation, there are a lot of traditional beliefs that were whitewashed or otherwise adapted to fit with Christianity. Again I can't really comment directly on what constitutes appropriation vs. syncretic religion, but here are some examples. Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit / Great Mystery / Grandfather Spirit is often equated with Christian God the Father but in reality it's quite a different concept and traditional Lakota religion is polytheistic and involves ancestor veneration (I dunno about ancestor worship per se). White Buffalo Calf Woman is a legendary Lakota figure who taught the Lakota seven sacred rites (such as the ceremonial smoking of the peace pipe, sweat lodge, etc) and promised to return one day. So she gets equated with Jesus or Moses. I don't see how it would be cultural appropriation for the culture itself to retain its traditional practices even in a new religion; that's syncretism. Considering what I know about Native American forced integration by schooling ("kill the Indian, save the child, etc.) I'm pretty sure the impetus of syncretism wasn't coming from the whites.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:08
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The Phlegmatist posted:I'm pretty sure the impetus of syncretism wasn't coming from the whites. I'm not sure about that, missionaries and the educational system deliberately mapped Christianity onto Lakota beliefs to aid in conversion. I'm teaching at a tribal college now, if there's interest in particular subjects I can ask some people in the Lakota studies department to get some more authoritative answers.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:22
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Slimy Hog posted:Can we go back to talking about funny hats? I have to believe gopnik birb is orthodox:  Pellisworth posted:We have elders and sometimes kids say prayers in Lakota during worship. The four cardinal directions each have a color associated with them (red yellow white and black) and a ton of spiritual significance. Honestly singing that song seems really close to paganism to me since each direction is associated with different spiritual beings and parts of Lakota cosmology. Unless Catholics are cool with praying to the thunder spirits in the west, or their ancestor star-people to the South? Well, hegel tried to convert me by saying pagan gods could be saints, so I guess you could do the same with thunder spirits and the star people. The skyfather/great spirit - mother earth duality seems pretty clearly heretical, though.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:26
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Tias posted:Well, hegel tried to convert me by saying pagan gods could be saints,
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Oct 8, 2017 20:28
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Hey, credit where it is due - we incorporated an actual imperial cult into the rite sixteen hundred years ago.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:29
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HEY GAIL posted:go get baptized and become Orthodox tias Go get naked and do mushrooms in the wood with me, then we'll talk
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Oct 8, 2017 20:31
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Pellisworth posted:I'm not sure about that, missionaries and the educational system deliberately mapped Christianity onto Lakota beliefs to aid in conversion. Damned Jesuits. That's how they get ya.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:38
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HEY GAIL posted:more like we did True enough. Question for you and the other orthodox types - call it a hunch, but I'm assuming that there's a significant correlation between "young orthodox laymen with big monastic style beards" and "people I might best avoid"? Or am I just being paranoid about Orthodox hipsters?
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Oct 8, 2017 20:40
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Numerical Anxiety posted:True enough. remember this is a religion where an explicit doctrine is "think that you personally are the worst of sinners and judge nobody else" and not draw attention to yourself. these dudes might be actually sinning with what they do.
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Oct 8, 2017 20:58
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Numerical Anxiety posted:True enough. hegel has on multiple occasions referred to "earnest bearded dudes named who call themselves Nikephoros (birth name Chad)" in this thread. they're definitely a type and yeah they're generally awful
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Oct 8, 2017 21:01
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I have a beard
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Oct 8, 2017 21:18
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Smoking Crow posted:I have a beard what's her name?
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Oct 8, 2017 21:28
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 beard weirds are everywhere in the new calvinist movement "yes, yes" i say as i dig into a tin of beard wax with the face of john calvin on the front "yeah baby this early modern sex machine is predestined to get laid" Bel_Canto posted:hegel has on multiple occasions referred to "earnest bearded dudes named who call themselves Nikephoros (birth name Chad)" in this thread. they're definitely a type and yeah they're generally awful pretend I dug up the virgin cradle and the chad convert and reposted it
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Oct 8, 2017 21:44
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That was a wonderful writeup, thanks a lot Pellisworth! Re: monks and animals, how's this? https://twitter.com/giorgio_karam/status/916874197397397504 https://twitter.com/erlosungen/status/917051329482289153 And finally re: beards, John Calvin admittedly had a pretty badass one https://twitter.com/Joanne_Paul_/status/915252940344107009
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Oct 8, 2017 21:53
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Numerical Anxiety posted:True enough. In Eastern Europe it means they're either from a very small secluded town and/or it's a crazy millionaire.
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Oct 8, 2017 22:27
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Senju Kannon posted:what's her name? Shhhhhhh
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Oct 8, 2017 22:29
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The Phlegmatist posted:pretend I dug up the virgin cradle and the chad convert and reposted it also, i would vote for Shark Pope
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Oct 8, 2017 22:29
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Numerical Anxiety posted:True enough. I have a pretty decently sized beard, not sure if it qualifies as "monastic style" though. I guess I wouldn't qualify though because I'm not technically Orthodox, just an inquirer. 
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Oct 8, 2017 22:33
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HEY GAIL posted:st elijah is p much a thunder god in russian folktales, you could totally swing this i mean saint brigid is literally, literally a celtic goddess
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Oct 8, 2017 23:10
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