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AreWeDrunkYet posted:A registry works in combination with record keeping on transfers, including private party transfers. Every gun used in a crime would then be traceable, and law enforcement could use that data to choke off diversion of guns from legal channels. As it stands today, even where a background check is required the records are quickly discarded. It creates a gaping hole of plausible deniability that results in easier access to illicit firearms. It also made legal ramifications for selling firearms without a license more intense, making it more difficult for someone to sell without a proper FFL CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Oct 9, 2017 |
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Oct 9, 2017 19:30
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:If a registry could flag a guy for buying 30 rifles in a year that might help with prevention but idk This seems to be getting ignored but seems pretty central to the point I was trying to make
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Oct 9, 2017 19:50
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I enjoyed the Tropic Thunder reference there, happy to see the argument hasn't devolved into complete anarchy Gonna watch some Narcos now and go to bed, see y'all on the morrow
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Oct 9, 2017 20:05
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:A registry works in combination with record keeping on transfers, including private party transfers. Every gun used in a crime would then be traceable, and law enforcement could use that data to choke off diversion of guns from legal channels. As it stands today, even where a background check is required the records are quickly discarded. It creates a gaping hole of plausible deniability that results in easier access to illicit firearms. Ok, so the idea is that it would track sales between private parties. Unfortunately it relies upon the very people who are currently breaking the law (overwhelmingly) by selling to those who shouldn't have guns to actually report it. And I'm not saying slippery slope, I'm straight up calling it a prerequisite for any kind of enforceable firearms ban.
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Oct 9, 2017 20:34
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Godholio posted:
You could probably straight up call any firearm legislation a prerequisite for any kind of enforceable firearms ban.
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Oct 9, 2017 20:46
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Godholio posted:And I'm not saying slippery slope, I'm straight up calling it a prerequisite for any kind of enforceable firearms ban. ....that's still a slippery slope argument. As someone already said: Might as well try to make the same argument about gay marriage just being the slipper slope to people marrying their pets.
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Oct 9, 2017 20:50
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:As it stands today, even where a background check is required the records are quickly discarded. It creates a gaping hole of plausible deniability that results in easier access to illicit firearms. I'm assuming you mean the record of the check specifically, because every firearm sale going through an FFL (the ones that require a background check) requires a form 4473 to be filled out, and dealers have to hold on to those forms for 20 years. 5 if the check comes back with a "no."
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Oct 9, 2017 20:53
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McNally posted:I'm assuming you mean the record of the check specifically, because every firearm sale going through an FFL (the ones that require a background check) requires a form 4473 to be filled out, and dealers have to hold on to those forms for 20 years. 5 if the check comes back with a "no." Please, please, please go watch the video where the ATF shows what sort of records they usually get from FFLs. The NRA has pushed to ensure that the 4473 cannot be digitized, and usually when the ATF gets the 4473, its in either poor or unrecoverable shape. https://youtu.be/1N118jYj2cA https://youtu.be/_ECYMvjU52E?t=356 CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Oct 9, 2017 |
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Oct 9, 2017 20:58
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CommieGIR posted:....that's still a slippery slope argument. As someone already said: Might as well try to make the same argument about gay marriage just being the slipper slope to people marrying their pets. Except that's stupid. There's a political movement that wants guns banned. There is at this time, a Constitutional right in place. I don't know of the same for gays vs pets. Godholio fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Oct 9, 2017 |
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Oct 9, 2017 21:04
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Godholio posted:Except that's stupid. So is your worry about the 48 step government gun seizure plot. Godholio posted:There's a political movement that wants guns banned. There is at this time, a Constitutional right in place. I don't know of the same for gays vs pets.  And how likely do you think that's actually gonna happen, or are you actually so sure about that slippery slope that you just think ANY change that might help is just part of a plot to take your guns.This is a slippery slope argument you just described. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Oct 9, 2017 |
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Oct 9, 2017 21:05
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My worry is that we'll keep pursuing do-nothing, knee-jerk reactions that restrict the liberty of law abiding citizens so you can feel good about yourself.
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Oct 9, 2017 21:10
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CommieGIR posted:Please, please, please go watch the video where the ATF shows what sort of records they usually get from FFLs. The NRA has pushed to ensure that the 4473 cannot be digitized, and usually when the ATF gets the 4473, its in either poor or unrecoverable shape. Yet more reason why you'll never hear me say a kind word about the NRA.
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Oct 9, 2017 21:10
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Godholio posted:My worry is that we'll keep pursuing do-nothing, knee-jerk reactions that restrict the liberty of law abiding citizens so you can feel good about yourself. Yeah, its just about feeling good. No effects. That's why the NRA is so busy lobbying against CDC studies, because they don't want me to feel good.
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Oct 9, 2017 21:11
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McNally posted:Yet more reason why you'll never hear me say a kind word about the NRA. Same.
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Oct 9, 2017 21:11
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, its just about feeling good. No effects. That's why the NRA is so busy lobbying against CDC studies, because they don't want me to feel good.  The NRA has become a poo poo organization, and unfortunately they're the only gun lobby with any power.
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Oct 9, 2017 21:16
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Godholio posted:
So? Therefore, you have to support them? And no, that's not shifting the goal posts. You have just argued in a round about way that because the NRA is the only gun lobby with any power, DESPITE the obvious and proven detriment they cause, they should be supported? And you are arguing I'm moving the goal posts? Either they are poo poo and they do real harm, and you need to recognize that, or they are the only hope you have against some mysterious plan of the government to seize your guns and you support them. Which is it? This isn't even an issue of black and white: The NRA has openly suppressed reasonable gun legislation, openly suppressed gun violence studies, openly suppressed academic studies. But because you have this nagging feeling that this is just one step towards a slippery slope to take your guns, you are going to argue that your enemy of your enemy is your friend. You don't get to make slippery slope arguments and then go "OOOO, you moved the goal posts! Logical Fallacy!" CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Oct 9, 2017 |
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Oct 9, 2017 21:19
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Syrian Lannister posted:Guess you didn't click the link What's your point? I'm mocking the reactionary twit of a blogger who's complaining that people will get reminders about court dates. edit so we're not talking about different things: quote:No personal responsibility at all: Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Oct 9, 2017 |
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Oct 9, 2017 21:37
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CommieGIR posted:So? Therefore, you have to support them? No, and I don't support them. They've never gotten a dollar of my money, and I doubt they ever will. Unfortunately I don't know of another group I would support though. So in the meantime I have to deal with assholes who think that because I like guns I'm a jackbooted NRA supporter.
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Oct 9, 2017 22:26
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Godholio posted:No, and I don't support them. They've never gotten a dollar of my money, and I doubt they ever will. Second Amendment Foundation seems to be notably less white supremacist than the NRA. Not exactly a super high bar to clear but, well, it's better than the alternative.
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Oct 9, 2017 22:54
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Godholio posted:No, and I don't support them. They've never gotten a dollar of my money, and I doubt they ever will. Oh, don't worry: people who like guns would be equally creepy in any political landscape.
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Oct 10, 2017 01:39
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Doc Hawkins posted:Oh, don't worry: people who like guns would be equally creepy in any political landscape. 
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Oct 10, 2017 02:35
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Doc Hawkins posted:Oh, don't worry: people who like guns would be equally creepy in any political landscape. I like guns, I don't like like guns.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:16
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Godholio posted:I like guns, I don't like like guns.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:20
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Let's be honest, if that's the strangest place my dick ends up it'll be a surprise.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:28
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quote:A Texas Tech University police officer has been shot and killed at the campus police headquarters, prompting a lockdown of the Lubbock campus. Later taken into custody...alive?! Oh, right, a white kid. quote:In a statement, [Texas Governer] Abbott also says he offered condolences to Texas Tech University Chancellor Robert Duncan. He also says “hearts go out to the family of the police officer killed” and added he and wife Cecilia, “pray for the continued safety of the students and the entire community.” https://twitter.com/GregAbbott_TX/status/914523978689056769
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Oct 10, 2017 04:44
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Doc Hawkins posted:Later taken into custody...alive?! Oh, right, a white kid. most cop killers are taken alive
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Oct 10, 2017 05:21
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Doc Hawkins posted:Later taken into custody...alive?! Oh, right, a white kid. kid saw this article last week and went 'hold my beer'
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Oct 10, 2017 05:22
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CommieGIR posted:Please, please, please go watch the video where the ATF shows what sort of records they usually get from FFLs. The NRA has pushed to ensure that the 4473 cannot be digitized, and usually when the ATF gets the 4473, its in either poor or unrecoverable shape. The dude's reasoning for .50 cal rifles being used for hunting: "Well, you've maybe got some disabled people that can't walk very far, so these rifles shoot up to half a mile"  /edit: The ATF has to scan every single paper record, then convert it to pdf because of the automatic character recognition of the scanning devices, then convert it to .tif because .pdf is still "too searchable". The .tifs are then tagged afterwards with gun specs. 
Duzzy Funlop fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 05:37
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Godholio posted:My worry is that we'll keep pursuing do-nothing, knee-jerk reactions that restrict the liberty of law abiding citizens so you can feel good about yourself. What I don't understand is how trying to slowly get closer to standards that every other developed nation on the planet with a ton of guns has adopted is deemed "do-nothing" or "knee-jerk", because it doesn't solve THE ENTIRETY of mass shootings and gun deaths. And I'm not even talking about standards of restriction, the paperwork clownery at the ATF would the a start. The self-proclaimed greatest nation in the history of the planet has a government agency intended to enforce firearms legislation but comes with the administrative equivalent of an automatic dick-punching device that prevents it from having even the remotest semblance of efficiency in its paperwork operations. And when it is suggested that this government agency could maybe be brought into the 21st century and could have its dick-punching device detached, the response is "NOOOOOO, IT'S A SLIPPERY SLOPE AND DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM REEEEEEEEEEE". Not specifically referring to you there, but this is the general impression I'm getting to the aversion to change in that matter.
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Oct 10, 2017 06:16
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Yeah, that's ridiculous with the tracing paperwork but we do have examples of states using registries (California) and then later banning said firearms.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:35
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DoktorLoken posted:Yeah, that's ridiculous with the tracing paperwork but we do have examples of states using registries (California) and then later banning said firearms. And it was struck down, so what's your point.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:46
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Duzzy Funlop posted:What I don't understand is how trying to slowly get closer to standards that every other developed nation on the planet with a ton of guns has adopted is deemed "do-nothing" or "knee-jerk", because it doesn't solve THE ENTIRETY of mass shootings and gun deaths. My policy positions are the result of carefully weighing all options and evidence, while those of my opponents are mere empty-headed self-fellating. Their principal mistakes are to care about anything besides being right, and to think it's reasonable for anything I want to keep to be sacrificed.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:58
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Duzzy Funlop posted:What I don't understand is how trying to slowly get closer to standards that every other developed nation on the planet with a ton of guns has adopted is deemed "do-nothing" or "knee-jerk", because it doesn't solve THE ENTIRETY of mass shootings and gun deaths. I agree 100% with the paperwork. That's dumb as hell. We are not "every other developed nation" on the planet. Our independence was fought for in a very different way from most of the British Empire, and most of Europe. Our history, which from day 1 included firearms as a part of regular life, is unique. Gun ownership rates have stayed relatively static, with between 25-40% of Americans owning guns...since before the Revolution. There's a unique relationship here, even compared to Australian history. Then there's the slippery slope argument you're so adamant is a fallacy. It's not, necessarily. Not when there are examples of such a registry being used against law abiding people. Obviously the Weimar Republic is the example that sucks to rely on because  . But Australia is fun, too, where semiauto rifles were banned and a mandatory buy-back took place less than a decade after registries became widespread. Oh, and gun owners were also prevented from joining the Liberal Party. I wonder how party officials knew who the gun owners were? It's not unreasonable to assume that similar things could happen here.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:17
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since we cant go back we should go forward. mandatory firearms and training for minorities
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Oct 10, 2017 15:23
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Proud Christian Mom posted:since we cant go back we should go forward. Unironically agree.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:25
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Godholio posted:I agree 100% with the paperwork. That's dumb as hell. Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 15:34
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Proud Christian Mom posted:since we cant go back we should go forward. Oh, yeah, I'm in favor. There's a lot of DSA chapters and members who want to subsidize gun purchases for those community members who are, shall we say, poorly served by law enforcement. Someone in one of the chapters that I participate in wants to hold regular trips to a range, and have people practice marksmanship and... retention? I think it's called? I told this to a guy at a party, hoping to freak him out, but he did me one better and said the chapters should own the guns but then "issue" them to members. "Uhh, you mean like a militia? Isn't that illegal in California?" "You just pay someone in Reno to be a member and the gunowner on paper." Kudos to that guy for turning the tables on me. I'll have to bring the idea up at some meetings. E: there's also the John Brown Societies and Redneck Revolt, widely admired by me and others in my circles Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 15:35
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Kawasaki Nun posted:Same argument could be made about slaves, which is similarly off point. Historical context isn't s reason to avoid tracking firearms sales. This is about as pointless as it gets relative to our firearm death statistics Historical context provides a background to how we got to where we are, which is a situation where an equal proportion of the population are still gun owners. But yeah, comparing gun ownership to slave ownership is totally a legit argument. You won me over.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:44
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Godholio posted:Historical context provides a background to how we got to where we are, which is a situation where an equal proportion of the population are still gun owners. Sounds like you're not all that committed to historical practices then. Maybe you should abandon it as an avenue of relevant discussion.
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Oct 10, 2017 16:01
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I love that you brought up the Wiemar Republic as the danger of Gun Registries, then ignored how the Nazis loosened gun control, and how personal firearms ownership did very little to actually stop them from seizing the weapons anyways and enacting a genocide, and the only major uprising was the Warsaw Uprising, which was conducted using seized military weapons, and was readily crushed. So what was the point of ownership again?
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Oct 10, 2017 16:06
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