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Phobophilia posted:then why the gently caress are you dragging boat like who gives a gently caress if antman and some dumbass chud who happens to be trans tries to spark some poo poo Thorne is a comrade, and we've moved beyond that.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:50
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Phobophilia posted:then why the gently caress are you dragging boat like who gives a gently caress if antman and some dumbass chud who happens to be trans tries to spark some poo poo I really like that 4/5 of your posts in this thread have been defending a guy who's pulled the usual NotMad tactics on twitter and acted a fool which was funny even if it was for a banal hot take about his posting. All the while also being really weird about trans people. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:so i've uncovered the identity of a kid (basically) who has been going around plastering anti-semitic poo poo on college campuses around here Just get evidence that it's him and take it to literally any higher up in the college. Most colleges have Offices of Diversity that railroad fucks like this if you make enough noise.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:52
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That wasn't even really about guns. Even if I was being very charitable, it is still a dumb way to take a jab at someone over twitter politics.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:55
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Tokamak posted:Even if I was being very charitable, it is still a dumb way to take a jab at someone over twitter politics. No, I think it's very appropriate to confront liberalism and its conception of the state & legitimate violence.
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Oct 10, 2017 04:57
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Its not strictly 'liberal' though, it's modern.
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Oct 10, 2017 05:04
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Oct 10, 2017 05:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i like some of his stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZly6bW3UMk That's a good video.
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Oct 10, 2017 05:11
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The monopoly of violence by the state is a necessary component of civil society, and one of the greatest social innovations of the modern era. But it doesn't apply to marginalized communities subject to assassinations of oppression, or political struggle, because the foundational assumption of the legitimacy of that monopoly of violence, is consent of the governed.
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Oct 10, 2017 05:12
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rudatron posted:The monopoly of violence by the state is a necessary component of civil society, and one of the greatest social innovations of the modern era. But it doesn't apply to marginalized communities subject to assassinations of oppression, or political struggle, because the foundational assumption of the legitimacy of that monopoly of violence, is consent of the governed. The problem being that the consent of the governed is almost never rendered in the execution of state violence.
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Oct 10, 2017 05:20
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rudatron posted:But they wouldn't have been Nazis, though I'll agree expansionism isn't necessarily an ideological prerequisite for fascism. But it may be an inevitable one, since it dovetails well with the rest of it. Sure but I'm arguing that Germany could have avoided WW2 while still being fascist as gently caress. I can't prove this because the past has already happened and Germany did what it did. I even said that I didn't think an isolationist Nazi Germany would survive into the 21st century for the same reasons Portugal and Spain didn't. If fascism must expand to survive, then that doesn't necessarily imply it will expand.
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Oct 10, 2017 05:29
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Dreddout posted:Sure but I'm arguing that Germany could have avoided WW2 while still being fascist as gently caress. I can't prove this because the past has already happened and Germany did what it did. I even said that I didn't think an isolationist Nazi Germany would survive into the 21st century for the same reasons Portugal and Spain didn't. If fascism must expand to survive, then that doesn't necessarily imply it will expand. IMO it was easy for Spain and Portugal to avoid expansionism because they weren't overwhelmed by revanchist sentiment the same way Italians and Germans were.
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Oct 10, 2017 05:30
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Like, if you really want to imagine a sustainable Nazi Germany, your alt-hist scenario has to erase the entire rearmament scheme because that was a ticking time bomb in 1939 only remedied by stealing gold from the reserves of occupied Europe. Who are the German fascists who don't get hard on militarism? Anyways, the Nazis were poo poo, and half of this Nazi-wank comes from 8+ decades of easily impressed hacks who swallowed their propaganda whole.
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Oct 10, 2017 08:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The problem being that the consent of the governed is almost never rendered in the execution of state violence. the problem is one of membership - who is being 'governed' and who is being 'exploited', who is internal and who is external; who is in, and who is out. And that shifts based on the self and class interest of the people inside the system. taken to the fascists extreme, this naturally leads to crimes against humanity, with an ever contracting 'internal' set from which the state is able to function, and everyone else, who are ignored/discarded/genocided as being superfluous. But even in less extreme cases, such as the modern US, it's clear that the state isn't acting in the interests of black people, and that while recognized formally as citizens, they are still, at least in some senses, 'out'. Conversely, that same distinction also exists between rich & poor, rich are 'in' and the poor are 'out'. So, in conclusion, modernists idea of monopoly of violence, consent of the governed, etc, aren't invalid as you're suggesting, but they are incomplete, and it's the liberal inability to acknowledge class, and more broadly power inequalities and its negative effects, that is the reason for this incompleteness
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Oct 10, 2017 08:44
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Dreddout posted:Sure but I'm arguing that Germany could have avoided WW2 while still being fascist as gently caress. I can't prove this because the past has already happened and Germany did what it did. I even said that I didn't think an isolationist Nazi Germany would survive into the 21st century for the same reasons Portugal and Spain didn't. If fascism must expand to survive, then that doesn't necessarily imply it will expand. Sure, you could have some hypothetical fascist Germany avoid another world war, but not any conceivable Nazi Germany. In so far as Nazism has a coherent core ideology, expansion and extermination were always existential elements of it going back to the 1920s. Hitler refers to eastward expansion as necessary for the fatherland to achieve its destiny repeatedly throughout Mein Kampf and elsewhere, and over and over again he spoke about how the movement had to return to the historic "drang nach Osten" and away from what he thought was Imperial Germany's foolish dalliance with overseas colonies. If you really want I guess you can retcon all of this away, but doing so leaves you in Harry Turtledove territory at best, and Alt-Hero bullshit at worse. Captain_Maclaine has issued a correction as of 17:58 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 13:44
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Even if Germany was merely fascist they still would've had an irresistable hardon for taking back Danzig.
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Oct 10, 2017 14:10
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The German Nazis were really the worst-case scenario (kinda making a no-poo poo statement but hear me out) because they were extremely murderous -- even to each other -- while also being not *so* murderous that it derailed their attempts at taking power. The Nazis were not the most murderous of fascist movements of the era, at least murderous in an unrestrained sense. The most psychotic of them all was the Legion of the Archangel Michael in Romania, better known as the Iron Guard (the name specifically refers to the paramilitary wing of the party).  quote:Particularly gruesome was the murder of dozens of Jewish civilians in the Bucharest slaughterhouse. The perpetrators hung the Jews from meat hooks, then mutilated and killed them in a vicious parody of kosher slaughtering practices. The American ambassador to Romania Franklin Mott Gunther who toured the meat-packing plant where the Jews were slaughtered with the placards reading "Kosher meat" on them reported back to Washington: "Sixty Jewish corpses were discovered on the hooks used for carcasses. They were all skinned....and the quantity of blood about was evidence that they had been skinned alive". Gunther wrote he was especially shocked that one of the Jewish victims hanging on the meat hooks was a 5-year-old girl. quote:Normally, to obtain membership, new affiliates in each cuib (nest) participated in a grisly ceremony requiring that they suck blood from slashes in the arms of other members. They swore to obey the “six fundamental laws” of the cuib: discipline, work, silence, education, mutual aid, and honor. Then they wrote oaths in their own blood, pledging even to kill when so ordered. Members of the Legion’s direct-action units, appropriately termed echipa mortii (death squads), in turn, each contributed some of their blood to a common glass, from which all drank, uniting them in life and death. Matthew Heimbach of the Traditionalist Workers Party today still rocks a Legion shirt. 
BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 14:21 on Oct 10, 2017 |
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Oct 10, 2017 14:19
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:If that wasn't hosed up enough, the Legion combined racial nationalism -- and the belief that shedding blood was necessary to save the nation -- with an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity which held that taking life was a sin. So the Legion taught that killing other people and going to hell because of it was a necessary sacrifice for the greater cause. If they wasn't actually real and horrible, it'd sound like the most try-hard plot to some metal album
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Oct 10, 2017 15:03
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From Ben Shapiro's rag. https://twitter.com/realDailyWire/status/917361118368034818 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEqa90XpPw0&t=22s
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Oct 10, 2017 15:07
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War between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was as inevitable as anything in history can be, because Hitler saw the very existence of a Communist state like the Soviet Union as an existential threat to Germany. Regardless of whether the Soviets were serious about inspiring a Communist revolution in Germany during Nazi rule, Hitler clearly believed that there could not be peaceful coexistence and that one side would inevitably destroy the other. The only thing that prevented war from breaking out earlier was that neither side was ready for it, and both were playing for time, but that doesn't change the fundamental reality that each side viewed the other as an existential threat. This is best illustrated for Germany in the Reichstag Fire and its aftermath. Leaving aside the issue of van der Lubbe's responsibility, the Reichstag Fire and the attendant fear of an imminent Communist revolution was what finally allowed Hitler to gain absolute power, so it is quite clear that the fear of Communism was present in the general population as well. Independently, I don't think that the Soviets had any particular desire to destroy Germany in the same way that the Nazis wanted to destroy anything and everything Communist, but for Soviet leadership, it was impossible to ignore the existence of a belligerent, expansionist military state hell-bent on their destruction sitting so close. Thus, even if Germany had, through some improbable sequence of events, not invaded first, it was only a matter of time until the Soviets would have.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:07
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Btw there's a really good and extremely cspammy play called Rhinoceros by Eugene Ionesco that's an absurdist metaphor for the Iron Guard's takeover of Romania, except instead of becoming Nazis people turn into rhinos.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:18
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:From Ben Shapiro's rag. you shouldn't sacrifice people to the gods. instead, sacrifice them in the silver mines of potosi
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Oct 10, 2017 15:20
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StashAugustine posted:Btw there's a really good and extremely cspammy play called Rhinoceros by Eugene Ionesco that's an absurdist metaphor for the Iron Guard's takeover of Romania, except instead of becoming Nazis people turn into rhinos. The logician who spends the entire play explaining that it's impossible that people should simply turn into rhinoceroses and then turns into one is loving hilarious.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:21
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:The German Nazis were really the worst-case scenario (kinda making a no-poo poo statement but hear me out) because they were extremely murderous -- even to each other -- while also being not *so* murderous that it derailed their attempts at taking power. Child murdering vampires destined for hell. This is cartoon level poo poo. Great write up.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:26
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also btw, heimbach is also orthodox, and also excommunicated for racism
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Oct 10, 2017 15:28
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Montasque posted:Child murdering vampires destined for hell. This is cartoon level poo poo. Great write up. The Strain is a documentary.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:33
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Montasque posted:Child murdering vampires destined for hell. This is cartoon level poo poo. Great write up.
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Oct 10, 2017 15:52
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StashAugustine posted:also btw, heimbach is also orthodox, and also excommunicated for racism
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Oct 10, 2017 16:51
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[quote="“cargo cult”" post="“477242111”"] a lot of NRx types self identify as orthodox in the rod dreher vein [/quote] Catholicism and Orthodox seem the go to Christian denominations for these guys. Catholicism is tied to their crusader fetish. Orthodox most likely comes from their Putin love.
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Oct 10, 2017 17:53
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Orthodox love comes from the nerd logic of it having the least cultural changes from the chuch of the bible.
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Oct 10, 2017 17:58
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:Orthodox love comes from the nerd logic of it having the least cultural changes from the chuch of the bible. I have to suspect part of it also comes from the fascist love of ritualized spectacle, which in its own context Orthodox Christianity has all other branches beat hands down.
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Oct 10, 2017 18:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Even if Germany was merely fascist they still would've had an irresistable hardon for taking back Danzig. Completely agree, I just don't think the international community would have done anything if they stopped at Danzig. They certainly didn't try very hard with Czechoslovakia
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Oct 10, 2017 18:00
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Dreddout posted:Completely agree, I just don't think the international community would have done anything if they stopped at Danzig. They certainly didn't try very hard with Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_minority_in_Poland#/media/File:German_language_frequency_in_Poland_based_on_Polish_census_of_1931.PNG German language frequency in Poland based on Polish census of 1931
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Oct 10, 2017 18:03
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:Orthodox love comes from the nerd logic of it having the least cultural changes from the chuch of the bible. That's still a huge amount of cultural change, early Christianity was a weird mix of Doomsday preppers and aesthetic communes. Lmao if you don't chain yourself to a rock long enough for the chain to be absorbed into your body, guess you don't love Jesus as much as Simeon Stylites
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Oct 10, 2017 18:07
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Dreddout posted:Completely agree, I just don't think the international community would have done anything if they stopped at Danzig. They certainly didn't try very hard with Czechoslovakia At that point the UK and France had already declared war.
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Oct 10, 2017 18:19
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:The German Nazis were really the worst-case scenario (kinda making a no-poo poo statement but hear me out) because they were extremely murderous -- even to each other -- while also being not *so* murderous that it derailed their attempts at taking power. Thank you for this. My Romanian coworker was super disgusted when I showed him that incel, Heimbach, in a Corneliu shirt. He is quite mild mannered and said Americans don't know the horrors they are asking for.
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Oct 10, 2017 18:52
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Dreddout posted:Completely agree, I just don't think the international community would have done anything if they stopped at Danzig. They certainly didn't try very hard with Czechoslovakia they invaded Poland specifically because Poland refused to surrender Danzig without a fight, which started the war so this is kind of an odd claim but in hearts of iron if poland does just surrender Danzig the game can often go several more years without a war kicking off in europe
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Oct 10, 2017 18:55
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Zeroisanumber posted:At that point the UK and France had already declared war. If that situation had continued intermittently, I'd imagine a peace treaty would be signed and Germany would have been allowed to keep it's French puppet state. the bitcoin of weed posted:they invaded Poland specifically because Poland refused to surrender Danzig without a fight, which started the war Yeah I'm arguing the Allies don't give a poo poo about Poland in and of itself. If Germany had the foreknowledge of keeping a neutral Poland as a buffer state, I doubt the Soviets would have went out of their way to invade them through neutral Poland. Admittedly, I don't know how much the ideal of lebensraum appealed to the average German. However, I assume the population would have been content with the reclaiming of old Germany, and if not, what were they gonna do? Vote the Nazis out of power?! We could have easily seen a fascist central Europe survive well into the cold war, because the international community only really gave a poo poo when it was apparent that Germany had no intention of stopping at it's old borders or ethnically German lands.
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Oct 10, 2017 19:16
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don't forget that hitler loving loved america for our race laws and until the lend lease act thought we would never help russia
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Oct 10, 2017 19:33
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Gringostar posted:don't forget that hitler loving loved america for our race laws and until the lend lease act thought we would never help russia Just to be clear here, Hitler though race laws and the genocide of the Native Americans were about the only admirable things about America, which he otherwise considered a debauched land of race mixing, Jazz, and associated degeneracy, and in his unpublished second book predicted that the Reich would inevitably have to defeat it once it'd wrapped things up in Russia. I'm sure that's what you meant, but your wording could be seen to imply that he had any sort of unalloyed fondness for the US.
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Oct 10, 2017 20:02
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Just to be clear here, Hitler though race laws and the genocide of the Native Americans were about the only admirable things about America, which he otherwise considered a debauched land of race mixing, Jazz, and associated degeneracy, and in his unpublished second book predicted that the Reich would inevitably have to defeat it once it'd wrapped things up in Russia. I'm sure that's what you meant, but your wording could be seen to imply that he had any sort of unalloyed fondness for the US. genocide of natives and how well jim crow was codified into law to keep the undesirables under the boot of the wealthy, but yes hitler thought the us was basically a land of playboys and chicken shits but at the same time didn't think we would ally ourselves with russia like we did
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Oct 10, 2017 20:11
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