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steinrokkan posted:Sorry, but you are the only one showing team-think tendencies in this case. Your argument is that we shouldn't be talking about this when there are other things to focus on that would hurt the GOP instead. No? My argument is that it's dumb to single out Obama particularly, or the Democratic Party specifically, out as if Weinstein were uniquely their responsibility or problem. I'm not saying "don't talk about it" at all, not even remotely. I'm arguing focus, not subject.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:40
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Are you saying that as a presidential candidate and later as the POTUS, Obama made no links with moguls in all sorts of industries, including entertainment? His history prior to that seems pretty irrelevant.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:41
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Condiv posted:it wasn't exactly a secret in the circles weinstein ran in, which almost certainly included obama Like, this doesn't mention Obama at all. Why are you so sure he knew?
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Oct 11, 2017 12:41
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People itt having no idea how parents, let alone powerful and protective parents actually act and assuming they just pull up an actuarial risk table is peak D&D.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:42
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Neurolimal posted:To be fair, it really is bizarre how entertainment media is avoiding Weinstein jokes. SNL pulled an entire bit they wrote about him for no described reason. Yeah, that's valid. I just think the "Obummer Knew" angle is bizarre and obsessive.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:42
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yronic heroism posted:Why didn't Bernie use his soapbox to draw attention to Harvey Weinstein being a predator Because weinstein was deeply connected to the Clinton campaign and him doing so would've been considered mud slinging despite it being totally warranted (especially since weinstein was working with the clinton campaign to distract from Bernie's pro blm message). Also, bernie is not well acquainted with weinstein like the clintons or obamas and therefore can't be expected to have had a better idea of weinstein's lovely rapeyness than any other person.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:43
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Stereotype posted:Why would Obama, who moved from Hawaii to the east coast to Chicago while being a constitutional scholar and community organizer, be running in the same circles as LA movie moguls? He was during his presidency stereotype. Weinstein and the obamas rubbed elbows frequently
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Oct 11, 2017 12:44
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I dont know if Obama knew, but Weinstein directly advising the Clintons is a bad image for the democrat party, seeing as how heavily they embedded themselves within said party. At best, it displays the enormous weakness inherent to their system of favors.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:45
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steinrokkan posted:Are you saying that as a presidential candidate and later as the POTUS, Obama made no links with moguls in all sorts of industries, including entertainment? His history prior to that seems pretty irrelevant. Him meeting people once (not that I can find an account of that happening outside some big gathering) doesn't mean he "ran in the same circles". He didn't run in the same circles as doctors or surgeons but I'm sure he met a bunch of them. Or auto union workers. He doesn't know everyone.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:46
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yronic heroism posted:People itt having no idea how parents, let alone powerful and protective parents actually act and assuming they just pull up an actuarial risk table is peak D&D. It's pretty common for parents to put their kids into the care of potentially abusive people, in the name of ambition, because of an unwillingness to listen, etc. Again, Obama probably (certainly) wasn't in on Weinstein's crimes, but apparently they weren't all that secret, and he or anybody else in the party could have figured this poo poo out ahead of it blowing up in their face if they actually gave a crap about the values they espouse, instead of only caring about money and sweet gigs.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:46
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"These crimes were super out in the open and stupidly obvious" -the guy who found out with everyone else a week ago.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:48
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Stereotype posted:Him meeting people once (not that I can find an account of that happening outside some big gathering) doesn't mean he "ran in the same circles". He didn't run in the same circles as doctors or surgeons but I'm sure he met a bunch of them. Or auto union workers. He doesn't know everyone. Weinstein in particular was a regular at Democratic events, and maintained correspondence with Democratic leadership, going as far as to suggest strategic moves during the 2015-6 primaries and election. Leaving Obama, somebody in the party hosed up for not examining their pretty intimate ties to him. Stereotype posted:"These crimes were super out in the open and stupidly obvious" I am not a loving dignitary who keeps in touch with important people. I guess you think that in the Jimmy Saville case everybody around him was squeaky clean as well, and all the stories of people covering up for him and suspecting him all along were made up? steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 12:49
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Condiv posted:Because weinstein was deeply connected to the Clinton campaign and him doing so would've been considered mud slinging despite it being totally warranted (especially since weinstein was working with the clinton campaign to distract from Bernie's pro blm message). Also, bernie is not well acquainted with weinstein like the clintons or obamas and therefore can't be expected to have had a better idea of weinstein's lovely rapeyness than any other person. He brought up Henry Kissinger, so why is Weinstein considered mudslinging? It even fits nicely into railing against the mega-rich. Maybe he wanted those donor bucks if he got the nom.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:51
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I think you guys better post some links because so far all I've seen is arrogant hand waving and one link that is at best irrelevant and at worst exculpatory.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:51
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steinrokkan posted:Weinstein in particular was a regular at Democratic events, and maintained correspondence with Democratic leadership, going as far as to suggest strategic moves during the 2015-6 primaries and election. Leaving Obama, somebody in the party hosed up for not examining their pretty intimate ties to him. Jimmy Saville, a guy you learned about from John Oliver three days ago. You're right, you aren't a dignitary who meets ten thousand enormously powerful people a year, so you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:53
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Stereotype posted:Jimmy Saville, a guy you learned about from John Oliver three days ago. You are a loving idiot. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2017 12:54
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steinrokkan posted:You are a loving idiot. *agressive hand waving intensifies*
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Oct 11, 2017 12:54
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yronic heroism posted:He brought up Henry Kissinger, so why is Weinstein considered mudslinging? Because he had no special knowledge with which to make that claim. Unlike both obama and hillary "Why didn't a guy people frequently argue isn't actually a democrat have special knowledge of a dem party megadonor" is p sad even for you yronic
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Oct 11, 2017 12:55
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Neurolimal posted:I dont know if Obama knew, but Weinstein directly advising the Clintons is a bad image for the democrat party, seeing as how heavily they embedded themselves within said party. This. Really this incident shows why we need more action to prevent unstable power relationships so this doesn't continue to happen.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:56
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Neurolimal posted:I dont know if Obama knew, but Weinstein directly advising the Clintons is a bad image for the democrat party, seeing as how heavily they embedded themselves within said party. Ok, yeah, that's fair but i think it's the furthest extent of the valid criticism. steinrokkan posted:Weinstein in particular was a regular at Democratic events, and maintained correspondence with Democratic leadership, going as far as to suggest strategic moves during the 2015-6 primaries and election. Leaving Obama, somebody in the party hosed up for not examining their pretty intimate ties to him. Look, dude, if you don't personally vet the entire personal background of every person you've ever spoken to or gotten an email from, we're gonna tar you with the same brush we used on them, that's legit right? Obama: basically a sex abuse apologist this poo poo is loving inane To spell it out in small clear words: you're jumping from "suggested strategic moves," i.e., "sent some emails with suggestions," to "pretty intimate," as if Obama and Weinstein were snuggling up together with a glass of wine and some Barry White. This is exactly the sort of false-equivalency, guilt-by-association bullshit I'm talking about.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:57
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Since everybody in the business is absolutely ethically impeccable, and would act against Weinstein if only they had known what a monster he was, it is logically the fault of the actresses that they didn't speak up earlier. They could have saved his future victims at no cost to themselves. Oh wait, Paltrow said even though fellow stars confronted Weinstein on her behalf immediately after he tried to "seduce" her, afterwards she was terrified she would have her career completely ruined because nobody would take her seriously and everybody would trust Weinstein over her.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ok, yeah, that's fair but i think it's the furthest extent of the valid criticism. Weinstein wasn't just some guy who once sent an email, also I'm not talking about Obama, but about the party and the people in it who worked to ingratiate themselves with him. Obama was just a useful rhetorical figurehead.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:59
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Crowsbeak posted:This. Really this incident shows why we need more action to prevent unstable power relationships so this doesn't continue to happen. Obviously not because you can't be held responsible for the company you keep! Forget I said anything, I now realize it is perfectly fine for the Democratic party to nurture relationships with sleazy creeps.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:00
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Stereotype posted:*agressive hand waving intensifies* I like the implication in your previous post that you are an important Hollywood bigshot who totally knows how everything works.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:02
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yronic heroism posted:Why didn't Bernie use his soapbox to draw attention to Harvey Weinstein being a predator steinrokkan posted:Obama was just a useful rhetorical figurehead. Why hasn't Jimmy Carter done more to stop this abuse
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Oct 11, 2017 13:07
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steinrokkan posted:I like the implication in your previous post that you are an important Hollywood bigshot who totally knows how everything works. If anything I suggested that I am a powerful political dignitary, but I don't need to be one to know you aren't either. You're the one confidently saying you know what it is like and how everyone had to know everything. Weinstein is bad yeah we agree there, but you're really cocksure that somehow everyone in the Democratic Party knew about it which is dumb.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:09
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steinrokkan posted:Since everybody in the business is absolutely ethically impeccable, and would act against Weinstein if only they had known what a monster he was, it is logically the fault of the actresses that they didn't speak up earlier. They could have saved his future victims at no cost to themselves. Seriously what the gently caress is this post? It's gross to use actual victims as a cudgel my man. snip- oops not thunderdome. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 13:17
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Who cares about Harvey Weinstein being sleazy and rapey? Fuckin Trump is president. It's a problem if Weinstein has any influence going forward but presumably he won't. Beyond that, focusing on the issue is just T_D tricks.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:19
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The only reason he won't have any influence is because of him being outed as sleazy and rapey, which took years and tons of people were too scared to come forward despite this all being an open secret. It's one thing to not fall into right wing messaging since they don't actually give a poo poo at all about what he did as they elected Trump, but to pretend this isn't something we need some introspection within the Democratic party where this guy is giving Hillary campaign tips (and bad ones to screw with BLM's message) is not a good take.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:27
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Radish posted:The only reason he won't have any influence is because of him being outed as sleazy and rapey, which took years and tons of people were too scared to come forward despite this all being an open secret. It's one thing to not fall into right wing messaging since they don't actually give a poo poo at all about what he did as they elected Trump, but to pretend this isn't something we need some introspection within the Democratic party where this guy is giving Hillary campaign tips (and bad ones to screw with BLM's message) is not a good take.  Hieronymous Alloy posted:Look, dude, if you don't personally vet the entire personal background of every person you've ever spoken to or gotten an email from, we're gonna tar you with the same brush we used on them, that's legit right? You realize there's a huge gulf between what's expected from the potus and what's expected from random joe off the street right? It is very much obama's job to be vetting people he's forming relationships with during the run up to and duration of his presidency.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:38
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lmao Weinstein is just some guy who wrote an email one time right.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:46
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Radish posted:The only reason he won't have any influence is because of him being outed as sleazy and rapey, which took years and tons of people were too scared to come forward despite this all being an open secret. It's one thing to not fall into right wing messaging since they don't actually give a poo poo at all about what he did as they elected Trump, but to pretend this isn't something we need some introspection within the Democratic party where this guy is giving Hillary campaign tips (and bad ones to screw with BLM's message) is not a good take. It is introspection everyone needs, because this poo poo happens everywhere. Not just Hollywood, and not just to the Democrats.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:52
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Moxie posted:Who cares about Harvey Weinstein being sleazy and rapey? Fuckin Trump is president. It's a problem if Weinstein has any influence going forward but presumably he won't. Beyond that, focusing on the issue is just T_D tricks. Because it reflects on the greater problems of society?
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Oct 11, 2017 13:56
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Doctor Butts posted:It is introspection everyone needs, because this poo poo happens everywhere. Not just Hollywood, and not just to the Democrats. I totally agree. However you can't just hold out for everywhere to do it at once and allow the people that are supposed to be on the left side of social issues off the hook because it's a systemic problem. One of the issues is that this has become a political thing where the right gets to use it as a "SEE OUR OPPONENTS ARE BAD ON THIS ISSUE THEY SAY WE ARE BAD ON" as if that means Trump isn't a vile sexual predator they absolutely support while you have Democrats trying to downplay the larger issue of the powerful but lovely people integrated into our political parties and high positions because it looks bad they had this guy in a position of influence so nothing gets done really. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 13:57
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Condiv posted:
If only there was another president with sexual abuse scandals that we could use as a comparison for Obama's behavior. Perhaps even one that isn't pointless sniping at Democratic leadership. You idiot.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:58
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Maybe Hollywood Executives aren't bad because they're Predators, they're bad because they're part of the capitalist class. Oops I repeated myself.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:06
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Unoriginal Name posted:If only there was another president with sexual abuse scandals that we could use as a comparison for Obama's behavior. Already addressed this earlier in the thread. We already know president pisstape is a rapist and a huge piece of poo poo. You're just trying to distract from a new issue by dredging up old news on the other hand
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Oct 11, 2017 14:07
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Radish posted:I totally agree. However you can't just hold out for everywhere to do it at once and allow the people that are supposed to be on the left side of social issues off the hook because it's a systemic problem. Why are you concerned about bad faith arguments from the right? And how is making the focus wider instead of narrow letting people off the hook?
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Oct 11, 2017 14:12
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Arguably the reason people focus on prominent Democrats fraternizing with sexual predators or giving closed-door speeches to Wall st bankers or whatever is because there's an expectation that the Democrat party is still principled and responsive enough to identify these as problems and enact reform. It's unlikely that the Republican party will ever move to limit the influence of rich donors. The Republican party's long term strategy is to use a combination of voter suppression, gerrymandering and effectively unlimited PAC spending to keep legislative majorities despite overall lower support. The whole scheme depends on outspending the Democrats in political campaigns and as a result they're not going to do anything about rich donors who may or may not be criminals.
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Oct 11, 2017 14:13
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So, are there banner ads targeting We have unbelievably poor support and social programs for victims of assault, allowing abusive spouses, parents, and employers to act with impunity under the deterrence of "I can cut you off and you'll starve." Why the usual suspects are towing the  party line that always tries to blame the whole mass of social issues on the Obamas and Dems is utterly loving beyond me it actually isn't, you're immensely spiteful people thrashing and clawing for vindication
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