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Rajoy to Puigdemont: "So, just to be clear, have you actually declared independence?" Confirmation is a required step in order to eventually cancel the autonomy of Catalonia, but I find hilarious that we have to check anyway. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 11:22
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| # ? May 29, 2024 01:49 |
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Fat Samurai posted:Rajoy to Puigdemont: "So, just to be clear, have you actually declared independence?" That's one way to start a dialogue.Also probably the most galician of answers, a question.
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Oct 11, 2017 11:35
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Schrödinger's declaration of independence.
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Oct 11, 2017 11:57
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hump day bitches! posted:That's one way to start a dialogue.Also probably the most galician of answers, a question. :cryingoctopusflag:
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Oct 11, 2017 11:59
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Either way this is not the official requirement to go back to normalcy ,previous to asking the senate for permission to 155 catalonia. This is just a question. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 12:11
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Fat Samurai posted:Rajoy to Puigdemont: "So, just to be clear, have you actually declared independence?" I've seen this sitcom episode. Puigdemont is gonna have lunch with Rajoy and assure him that everything's fine and they haven't declared independence, then he'll excuse himself to go to the bathroom, change clothes and quickly rush to a political rally next door where he'll tell his followers Catalonia is a free country now and they're only going to negotiate with Spain for better terms.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:29
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It's like they're one step up from the May government negotiating Brexit. Europe is a sitcom now.
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Oct 11, 2017 12:47
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beer_war posted:Schrödinger's declaration of independence. C'mon, its Shrodinger's Catalonia
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Oct 11, 2017 12:55
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Can anyone recommend a Guide to the Perplexed for the current Catalonia situation? I'm trying to piece things together from news reports and half-remembered factoids about the Spanish Civil War.
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Oct 11, 2017 16:34
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honestly going back and reading the goon arguments and occasional infodumps is as informative as you're going to get. that or just playing europa universalis until you have an unassailable grasp on all political topics as is traditional
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Oct 11, 2017 17:13
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:honestly going back and reading the goon arguments and occasional infodumps is as informative as you're going to get. Stop misleading people, you troll! One should totally start with Crusader Kings.
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Oct 11, 2017 18:00
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SMH if you don't realise all problems with European politics are rooted in the fall of Rome.
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Oct 11, 2017 18:16
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Dawncloack posted:Stop misleading people, you troll! One should totally start with Crusader Kings. Oh, I did, but I'm not sure how the inevitable Fraticelli Irish dominion over the Kingdom of Aragon factors into this. Not So Fast posted:SMH if you don't realise all problems with European politics are rooted in the 
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Oct 11, 2017 18:20
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Goon Danton posted:Oh, I did, but I'm not sure how the inevitable Fraticelli Irish dominion over the Kingdom of Aragon factors into this. Well then you are beyond help. More seriously, check my post history, there's an infodump about a month ago. Just my opinion. From that point on other people have added stuff. Read it all. edit I was bored and found it for you. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3767159&pagenumber=493&perpage=40#post476369641 Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 18:27
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"Catalans, dumber than corsicans - 'We want a debate' " https://twitter.com/CHVPSL/status/9...mmentee-espagne I'm not sure they're on point with this but I'll take the jab at corsicans anyway. unpacked robinhood fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 19:27
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Dawncloack posted:Well then you are beyond help. Thanks! I have some reading to do then.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:33
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This piece in the Washington Post from someone who has been researching Spanish partisan politics may also be interesting:quote:These events — and particularly the disputed results of the referendum — give the impression that Catalans are clamoring for independence. But this is wrong. Before the referendum, a minority of Catalans supported independence. The most recent survey by the Catalan government’s Center for Opinion Studies (CEO), which was conducted in July, showed that only a minority of Catalans (35 percent) supported independence. Before 2010, it was rare for more than 20 percent of Catalans to support independence. After 2010, support increased for two reasons. First, the Great Recession struck, leading to widespread unemployment. Second, the Constitutional Court struck down an overhaul of Catalonia’s statute of autonomy — the equivalent of its constitution — at the request of Spain’s conservative People’s Party. In 2013, support for independence peaked at 49 percent. But since then, support for independence has declined, falling below 40 percent last fall. In fact, in the most recent survey, 76 percent of Catalans actually identified with Spain. In another survey, 56 percent of Catalans stated that they would never vote for the Catalan president’s party. Support for Catalan secession is, thus, far from overwhelming. The corrollary to this is that because nobody in Catalonia votes for the PP either (they got 11% of the vote there the last time around), the PP has an incentive to stoke the dispute too, since that can help them increase their support with Spanish nationalists outside Catalonia: quote:In addition, both governments enjoy strong popular support. The ruling conservative People’s Party (PP) in Madrid can comfortably win a national election without courting voters in Catalonia, where it obtained a meager 11% of the vote in 2015. Likewise, the separatist parties can easily secure a majority in the Catalan parliament. Besides, thanks to governmental control of public broadcasters and generous public subsidies to private media outlets, both sides can deploy a reliable army of fiercely motivated journalists and intellectuals whose incendiary comments are contributing to the conflict’s escalation. Don't hold your breath for any of this to happen though.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:41
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Bet on the most stupid outcome and you"ll win.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:52
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So Spain and Catalonia are engaged in the Prisoner's Dilemma. Fitting.
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Oct 11, 2017 21:04
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That reads like a sensible article.
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Oct 12, 2017 05:52
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French-german relations: an overview: 
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Oct 12, 2017 19:45
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double nine posted:French-german relations: an overview: 
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Oct 12, 2017 20:20
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double nine posted:French-german relations: an overview: Mighty prescient of her to meet with Colonel De Gaulle in '39 instead of President Lebrun.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:42
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That is a bit of an unfortunate date to pick, considering what was going on in both countries at the time.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:44
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double nine posted:French-german relations: an overview:
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Oct 12, 2017 21:01
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Pushdemont, a git command that pushes your commit, then reverts it after 8 seconds: https://github.com/voghDev/git-pushdemont
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Oct 13, 2017 13:44
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Elman posted:Pushdemont, a git command that pushes your commit, then reverts it after 8 seconds: Well, actually, it doesn't do anything.  Of course, that only makes it more appropiate.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:03
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It took me a while to get that one until I realised I was in the European Politics thread and not in one of the software engineering ones.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:29
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From one of the issues in that repo:
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Oct 13, 2017 15:14
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beer_war posted:Well, actually, it doesn't do anything. It now actually does the push and reverts it, correctly signalling the remote that it's doing something and then suspending the changes.
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Oct 14, 2017 10:51
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beer_war posted:From one of the issues in that repo: 404 nation state not found
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Oct 14, 2017 12:43
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Can anyone comment on the Austrian election? It looks like the far right party did pretty well?
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Oct 14, 2017 13:35
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So aparently the ecb withheld greeces payments of their share of the smp program profits at the behest of the eurogroup,you know,that informal group that as no legal standing in the eu,but can dictate policy to the independent ecb?so thats nice. Really cool letter from draghi to a greek member of the eu parliament.mega cool even. Lol the payments where aparently whitholded during the 2nd bailout kerfufle.The right to be blackmailed must be one of the secret clauses in the lisbon treaty.
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Oct 14, 2017 14:09
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ChainsawCharlie posted:So aparently the ecb withheld greeces payments of their share of the smp program profits at the behest of the eurogroup,you know,that informal group that as no legal standing in the eu,but can dictate policy to the independent ecb?so thats nice. Did you actually read the letter? It doesn't seem to talk about "their" share of the SMP payments, but rather that Greece has been getting extra money from the other governments since 2012 (equal to the interest earned by the other governments from Greek debt), in an effort to help their flagging economy, which has admittedly been withheld on that occasion, due to a political decision of the other governments. (this includes Portugal too mind you) "Eurogroup" simply being a term for the EU national governments. I'm not terribly aware of the particularities of it all though, so if you could explain your view in more detail it might help. e: specifically this: quote:Moreover, in recent years the ECB’s annual accounts contained information on the net Private Speech fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 14:35
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ChainsawCharlie posted:So aparently the ecb withheld greeces payments of their share of the smp program profits at the behest of the eurogroup,you know,that informal group that as no legal standing in the eu,but can dictate policy to the independent ecb?so thats nice. I don't see how you get this out of that letter. This is the only thing it says about the role of the eurogroup: quote:In the past, the euro area Member States passed on to Greece, through a segregated account, amounts My interpretation would be that this is the eurogroup deciding to send their share of the profits made as a result of their national central banks having to buy Greek bonds to Greece, i.e. giving Greece money. In other words, this is not the money of the ECB, and Greece was never entitled to this money, it was just a way to pass money to it (probably to reduce the total size of the bailout and make it politically easier to approve). The reason for all of the decisionmaking in the eurogroup was that the other euro area member states collectively lent Greece a shitload of money. So they discussed their common interests as creditors to the Greek state in a body of which their relevant officials, namely the finance ministers, were conveniently already a member, namely the eurogroup. They could have decided to comply with the Lisbon Treaty of course, but in that case Greece wouldn't have received any money at all (I still think that would have been the worse outcome, but at this point I understand if people disagree). ed: I see Private Speech beat me to it. The only thing I'd add is that Greece as far as I know never actually received this money, because its creditors were never happy about its compliance with the MoU/ were total assholes, depending on your point of view.
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Oct 14, 2017 15:03
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Pluskut Tukker posted:ed: I see Private Speech beat me to it. The only thing I'd add is that Greece as far as I know never actually received this money, because its creditors were never happy about its compliance with the MoU/ were total assholes, depending on your point of view. That's only the money they would have received had the program continued, right? In any case I don't see how this has anything to do with ECB. It's handling of Greece was not ideal, but for the most part better than how the creditor countries acted. (which was itself better than how the US treated some of it's most unsustainably indebted states) e: Having some federal programs for things like education, the way the US does, would be rather nice though. While Erasmus and such are fine, it's nowhere near as useful as unified primary education systems would be. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 15:24
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actionjackson posted:Can anyone comment on the Austrian election? It looks like the far right party did pretty well? Well it isn't being held until October 15th, so nobody knows as of yet. But this is what polling as of this week shows:  The parties are: Freedom Party: the far right. Who are still polling well by European standards, but have slipped almost 10% since their highs. Generally on the fringe, due to being known for lots of xenophobia and airbrushing of Austria's Nazi past. Support for them has surged since the migration crisis however, similar to far-right, anti-migration, parties in the rest of Europe. People's Party: Traditional centre-right. Under a new young Macron-style leader in Sebastien Kurz, who is only 31. They've jumped 13% recently at a combination of the Freedom Party and the Social Democrats expense. This has occurred because the People's Party has stolen most of the Freedom Party's rhetoric on immigration (ie lets limit it drastically) which is winning them huge amounts of support across the political spectrum. They're still remaining reasonable on things like being pro-EU, and aren't semi fascists like the Freedom Party, so a lot of people are delighted to have a party to vote for that is actually listening to their concerns on migration. Social Democrats: suffering the same malaise/decline as the centre-left across Europe. Have focused too much on identity politics at the expense of their working class roots. Greens: traditional minority Green party. Depending on how the election day goes we'll probably get a grand coalition between the People's Party and the Social Democrats, or else a right-wing government with the Freedom Party and the People's Party. My money would be on a People's Party & Social Democrats coalition personally, because I think the Freedom Party are still a bit too toxic for a lot of people.
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Oct 14, 2017 15:52
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Yeah, i'll admit that my post was pretty bare bones and its not greeces share of the smp, but the agreed upon value of the interest paid on the greek bonds. To explain further my understanding: That letter is draghi stating that the total amount of interest collected on greece's public bonds by the SMP was 7,8 BE from 2012 to 2016. All this money is bundled up in a market pool and distributed to NBC's according to their participation\share in the ECB. It was decided in February 2012 that the other countries would forego their share of this market pool and send that money to greece, basically turning those greece loans interest free. The problem is the SMP pool money is paid to the ECBS constituents NBC's. This is an mildly important diference. LIke Plusku said, that was probably done to soften the bailout amount and was actually a (probably?likely?maybe?) a good thing. However, like Pluskut said, Greece never actually received this money, for a variety of reasons.(It was because people are assholes)
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Oct 14, 2017 15:58
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Private Speech posted:That's only the money they would have received had the program continued, right? In any case I don't see how this has anything to do with ECB. It's handling of Greece was not ideal, but for the most part better than how the creditor countries acted. (which was itself better than how the US treated some of it's most unsustainably indebted states) The ECB under Trichet infamously sent a letter to the governments of Spain and Italy telling them to reform, or else (here's a story on the letter to Spain). They also sent such a letter to Ireland. There's plenty to criticise the ECB for. However, we don't need to add the charge of letting itself be led by the Eurogroup to that.
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Oct 14, 2017 16:06
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Re Greek SMP profits: The ECB started an SMP program where it bought bonds of distressed Euro countries on the market to create a downward pressure on the interest rates of these bonds, which allowed the targeted countries to issue new bonds at cheaper rates than without the SMP program. The ECB, as an independent organisation, passes it's profits and losses to the NCB (national central banks) according to their share in the ECB and under regular circumstances, this would include profits from programs like the SMP program. It's important to note that those profits do NOT come at the cost of national governments. In the case of Greece there was the issue that Greek bonds (except for the ECB held bonds bought as part of the SMP program) suffered a haircut as part of the 2nd bailout. At this point the eurozone members, who would benefit from the SMP profits, agreed that they will pass this money on to Greece as part of the second bailout - the ECB was not part of that agreement. When the 2nd bailout ended unsuccessfully in June 2015, so did the agreement to pass the SMP profits on to Greece.
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Oct 14, 2017 16:23
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