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B-Nasty posted:The process layers in the enterprise are a pain, but there is another side too. Generally, I can receive whatever I need for projects/prototypes. Need 10 VMs to play with? Have them the next day. Full access to an enterprise Azure subscription with no spending limit. No issue with dropping $XX,000 on yearly license fees for development software. I'm not sure where you work that doesn't bog all of that down in multiple approval levels of people who don't understand what you want other than the spend looking bad on their fiscal year-end reports because that's what I'm used to hearing about from big non-tech companies.
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Oct 11, 2017 18:09
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Munkeymon posted:I'm not sure where you work that doesn't bog all of that down in multiple approval levels of people who don't understand what you want other than the spend looking bad on their fiscal year-end reports because that's what I'm used to hearing about from big non-tech companies. Yeah, this right here. Many of the hurdles I encountered were budgetary: we can't add another user to our enterprise Jira without incurring fees, so that needs budgetary approval. Which means you need manager sign-off to approach the budget office, which means you need to find your personnel manager, who is different from the project manager who you see every day. Then you have to convince them that you need access to Jira and that you can't just "make do", because they have no skin in the project but do get dinged if their budget numbers go up. Etc, etc, obviously that place was a shithole, but it soured me on companies that large.
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Oct 11, 2017 18:23
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Munkeymon posted:I'm not sure where you work that doesn't bog all of that down in multiple approval levels of people who don't understand what you want other than the spend looking bad on their fiscal year-end reports because that's what I'm used to hearing about from big non-tech companies. I was going to mention that the key, in my experience, seems to be the privately-held, mid-sized (<$1 billion) company with small-ish (<300 ppl.) branches. Maybe I've just been lucky all my career, because I've certainly not seen some of the craziness loquacious forum poster Pollyanna has seen.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:09
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I had to wait a month to get visual studio at boeing lol
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Oct 11, 2017 21:06
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I worked at 20000+ people company where I had everything I needed the day I showed up. I worked (not for long) at 300+ people company where on my second day (first day was bullshit going around HR crap, all day) I sat in front of my extremely empty desk until 5:00 PM when a very sweaty and probably tired IT guy showed up with a computer.
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Oct 12, 2017 03:20
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:look for the listings that don't list the salary and just say "generous." if you see the salary listed in the job posting it's probably not going to pay well. Doesn't this have the problem where their idea of "generous" might also just be trash?
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Oct 12, 2017 03:44
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Doesn't this have the problem where their idea of "generous" might also just be trash? yep, but unfortunately, that's life.
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Oct 12, 2017 04:16
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Enterprise doesn't mean big company with horrible process necessarily. I've done perfectly fine with enterprise start-ups (customers are there, your company and bureaucracy is minimal, less 20-something CEOs that think they're hot poo poo just because they went to some fancy school or have rich family) and given how well I've been emotionally investing into various companies I'm probably better off as a VC than as an engineer at this point as a career. With that said, most big-rear end companies are horrific with their bureaucracy, but I've been surprised at the bureaucracy in smaller places and the efficiencies possible at larger ones (100k+ employees). One thing I'll never miss about big companies though is the mandatory training bullcrap.
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Oct 12, 2017 13:37
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necrobobsledder posted:Enterprise doesn't mean big company with horrible process necessarily. I've done perfectly fine with enterprise start-ups (customers are there, your company and bureaucracy is minimal, less 20-something CEOs that think they're hot poo poo just because they went to some fancy school or have rich family) and given how well I've been emotionally investing into various companies I'm probably better off as a VC than as an engineer at this point as a career. Agreed, imo Enterprise is a way to describe the maturity of the product and sales process, not the size or longevity of the company.
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Oct 12, 2017 14:21
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CEO yesterday: Sure, I know we don't have any unit tests, and we are asking for a huge change in a product you inherited, but we will probably never have unit tests and we can probably never give you, or your coworker the time to write them.
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Oct 12, 2017 14:43
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ratbert90 posted:CEO yesterday: Sure, I know we don't have any unit tests, and we are asking for a huge change in a product you inherited, but we will probably never have unit tests and we can probably never give you, or your coworker the time to write them. If you think you don't have time to do unit tests just wait to see how long it takes you to do something big without them... Convincing a CEO of that is probably a fools errand though. In that scenario I'd probably do the work the way he wanted it and start sending out my resume, if the CEO has that mindset then changing the company culture isn't going to happen and even in the fantasy world where the CEO becomes convinced that unit tests are good and worthwhile as soon as the next crunch comes around he'll go back to the mindset of "we don't have time for that"
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Oct 12, 2017 15:23
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It's laughable for a CEO to have an opinion about something as specific as unit tests. Do the right thing every time, no matter what management thinks. What are they going to do, clone the repo, find the tests, and tell you that you shouldn'tve done them?
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Oct 12, 2017 15:27
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rt4 posted:It's laughable for a CEO to have an opinion about something as specific as unit tests. Do the right thing every time, no matter what management thinks. What are they going to do, clone the repo, find the tests, and tell you that you shouldn'tve done them? Discipline or fire you or your manager for not delivering on time because unit tests take a lot of time. Doesn't mean this is right, as a matter of fact it probably means you don't want to work there, but I've yet to find a place that understands the proper code:test time ratio required for producing safe and efficient unit tests. In my experience, a comprehensive test suite for a class/feature/new module/whatever takes almost twice as long as writing the code for any codebase that has an appreciable size.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:32
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ratbert90 posted:CEO yesterday: Sure, I know we don't have any unit tests, and we are asking for a huge change in a product you inherited, but we will probably never have unit tests and we can probably never give you, or your coworker the time to write them. How's the job search going?
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Oct 12, 2017 16:14
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Munkeymon posted:How's the job search going? It's not.  I am a month away from releasing another large project, and collecting a sizable bonus for that + my yearly bonus + a few sizeable cheques from another client I do side work for.Then a few weeks later I should be getting a grant to work on my dashcam that I am making. gently caress being a W2.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:24
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ratbert90 posted:It's not. Did you quit the old place where the owner was jerking you around or do I have the wrong person?
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Oct 12, 2017 16:52
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Good Will Hrunting posted:but I've yet to find a place that understands the proper code:test time ratio required for producing safe and efficient unit tests. Each unit has different characteristics spread over a spectrum that affect how where the sweet spot should be in the speed/quality/expense trade-off triangle: - is the API volatile? [stable like a simple sorting library --> business logic that's constantly in flux], [poor design will require lots of changes --> good design will require fewer] - how well does the language & code design support test maintenance? [tests updated and re-run in minutes --> hours] - how complex do the tests need to be? [simple --> many edge cases] - what's the business impact when there's a bug? [cosmetic glitch --> someone dies] - what's the ticket-to-fix-deployed latency? [seconds --> months] - likelihood that this code will become essential? [throwaway prototype code --> fundamental infrastructure] - what level of code coverage is acceptable? [the core bits --> 100%] There are so many axes and they're all so fuzzy. It's guaranteed there'll be a difference of opinion. The puritan in me wants blanket high quality unit tests, but the trade off is speed and efficiency, which impacts business. (And to stymie it further, junior programmers tend to be unaware of these axes, and hate writing tests and docs in the first place) Good Will Hrunting posted:In my experience, a comprehensive test suite for a class/feature/new module/whatever takes almost twice as long as writing the code for any codebase that has an appreciable size. I spent months re-writing an absolute ratsnest of code, doing TDD with comprehensive tests. And I was dragged over the coals for it because it massively delayed delivery. When I protested that the original ratsnest was buggy and unmaintainable, the retort was that it was at least providing business value. When I protested that I didn't want to deploy buggy code, the retort was that showstopper bugs were relatively rare, didn't significantly impact business, and were cheap to fix, so why invest all that time writing tests? They weren't wrong, it was just a different set of opinions/values. Wish I'd known that before joining the company though. I've since got a more nuanced view of when-and-how-much-to-test, but I hate that I have to make so many judgement calls for every unit I create. That's the nature of software development I guess. minato fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 17:13
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minato posted:Well, what is the proper ratio? I feel it's hard to answer simply. Yeah I agree with every bullet point of yours. Lines blur between unit, integration, end-to-end testing of course but I feel like time spend coding:time spend testing (defining edge cases, writing a unit test suite, proper end to end testing) in my experience is generally a function of the size of the codebase you're touching and how modular your specific piece is. I've worked on huge services that were well maintained and separated where tests took no time at all and small pieces that took forever cause they were all spaghetti. It's more about someone who understands the value of testing and accepts that it may take a really long time. I also hate when people over-test things. Deciding what components to test is a skill I've seen a lot of people fail aren't too good at.
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Oct 12, 2017 17:23
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Discipline or fire you or your manager for not delivering on time because unit tests take a lot of time. Doesn't mean this is right, as a matter of fact it probably means you don't want to work there, but I've yet to find a place that understands the proper code:test time ratio required for producing safe and efficient unit tests. In my experience, a comprehensive test suite for a class/feature/new module/whatever takes almost twice as long as writing the code for any codebase that has an appreciable size. Another potential outcome is getting disciplined/fired for releasing untested, crap code into the wild that brings your service down or that results in a product that loses your business customers. I've seen heads roll more often and with greater rotational velocity for bad, on-time releases than I have for good, late releases. Granted I haven't worked in, say, the games industry, and I'm sure it varies wildly from company to company in any case. The mistake in this scenario was discussing such a low-level detail of a project with the CEO in the first place (unless this is like a 3-person shop where the CEO is also the lead developer or something). If the project is going to take a week to code and 3 weeks to test for, to use completely arbitrary values, then the project is going to take you a month and that's the only time value your CEO needs to know about (actually you pad your estimate significantly to account for you underestimating, and also so the CEO can add value by "negotiating" you down closer to the actual estimate). Unit tests are simply part of the project that need to be written in order for the project to be complete.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:02
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These days, how much do universities teach Software Engineering to those pursuing CompSci degrees? At my university it was "not at all", all courses were purely academic CompSci. When I graduated, I thought I knew enough to get a job because I could write programs. My first job gave me a crash course in the actual practice of Software Engineering, and it concerns me that programmers don't learn the basics more formally. Interviews tend to focus on CompSci aspects because it's the lingua fraca that we're all expected to know, but shouldn't Software Engineering be the same way? In all my interviews at Big Tech Company's I can't recall ever being asked about SE concepts like architecture or code quality.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:05
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Munkeymon posted:Did you quit the old place where the owner was jerking you around or do I have the wrong person? Nah that's me. He offered me a bonus instead of a raise, and I got it in writing with a notary of the public. After the bonus, I am leaving with my monies and then going off and making my own things.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:11
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Universities don't have the skillset to teach software engineering anyway.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:15
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minato posted:These days, how much do universities teach Software Engineering to those pursuing CompSci degrees? It really depends on the department. Some have a strong sweng focus, particularly those in engineering colleges. There's less pushback from the pure math theoretical/academics (eg. Dijkstra's telescopes) than there used to be, but it's still there.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:16
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A course that dug into some large OSS project would be awesome and I definitely would have taken something like that.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:16
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I took a "large-scale development" course in undergrad. It went over UML diagrams and componetizing things and so on, but the scale was still laughably small compared to even fairly simple real-world programs.
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Oct 12, 2017 18:33
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ratbert90 posted:Nah that's me. He offered me a bonus instead of a raise, and I got it in writing with a notary of the public. After the bonus, I am leaving with my monies and then going off and making my own things. Cool! Good luck
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Oct 12, 2017 19:37
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My college had a single, required, senior year Software Design and Documentation class. Around the time I graduated they did a study comparing them to similarly ranked comp sci departments. They found that schools that are heavier on practice over theory produce workers who are stronger out of the gate, but less flexible when technologies change.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:32
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I can't wear business casual ever again, which rules out probably about 40% of NYC due to financial jobs. I don’t know where you worked, but my daily uniform is jeans and a hoodie. I am doubtful that business attire of any sort is required anywhere in NYC fintech nowadays, unless they only want to hire people above 40.
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Oct 12, 2017 22:37
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chutwig posted:I don’t know where you worked, but my daily uniform is jeans and a hoodie. I am doubtful that business attire of any sort is required anywhere in NYC fintech nowadays, unless they only want to hire people above 40. I was at Morgan Stanley. JPMorgan and UBS also have business casual dress code and Barclays too (the former I interviewed at last go around the latter I know people) A lot don't though, you're right. BlackRock is on my radar next go around and I asked when I spoke with their recruiter cause it's literally a deal breaker for me. Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 22:57
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That smart apostrophe sure did a number on that quote!
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Oct 12, 2017 23:08
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CPColin posted:That smart apostrophe sure did a number on that quote! coding horror detected Good Will Hrunting posted:I was at Morgan Stanley. JPMorgan and UBS also have business casual dress code and Barclays too (the former I interviewed at last go around the latter I know people) I would describe those as actual banks rather than fintech, fintech being places like Bloomberg, Reuters, hedge funds, HFT shops. Pure finance is a different kind of shitshow.
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Oct 12, 2017 23:52
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chutwig posted:I don’t know where you worked, but my daily uniform is jeans and a hoodie. I am doubtful that business attire of any sort is required anywhere in NYC fintech nowadays, unless they only want to hire people above 40. 20 years ago in my first job, we were all required to wear business casual (i.e. shirt & tie) daily "in case a prospective client wanted to tour the floor". In the course of a year it happened exactly once, and the client's first question was "why do all your developers wear business casual?"
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Oct 13, 2017 00:04
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ratbert90 posted:Nah that's me. He offered me a bonus instead of a raise, and I got it in writing with a notary of the public. After the bonus, I am leaving with my monies and then going off and making my own things. Listen I know this is a grey forum and all but I’d still like to say “lmao”. Enjoy throwing all that money into the lawyer you hire to get you the money.
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Oct 13, 2017 00:57
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I’ve worked for Amazon and Google and neither had issues like that. It took them both a little bit to get my workstation hooked up, but I had a working laptop (sufficient to do “real work” with in Google’s case) in the meantime and plenty of documentation to review / training videos to watch while I waited. The Amazon thing has changed in the past two years. Many/Most people do some form of development on their (usually mac) laptop and either run things locally or sync to a dev desktop on ec2 (usually something like an m4.2xl but really whatever you need). Now that Brazil runs on macs/Ubuntu and they have some dev wrappers for running native stuff in amazon linux containers it's mostly about how much cpu/memory you need to run stuff :/. Some people are also starting to play with some Brazil integration into cloud9 but I find developing in a browser weird. FamDav fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 02:12
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minato posted:20 years ago in my first job, we were all required to wear business casual (i.e. shirt & tie) daily "in case a prospective client wanted to tour the floor". I think of business casual as slacks and a polo or maybe a button-up but no tie because 1) wearing a tie with a polo would be weird and 2) then it's decidedly not casual. What you're describing sounds more like "wear a suit, but you can leave the jacket at home if it's too hot outside"
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Oct 13, 2017 15:06
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This image represents my understanding of the dress levels (except for smart casual, which looks too try-hard):
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Oct 13, 2017 19:44
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FamDav posted:The Amazon thing has changed in the past two years. Many/Most people do some form of development on their (usually mac) laptop and either run things locally or sync to a dev desktop on ec2 (usually something like an m4.2xl but really whatever you need). Now that Brazil runs on macs/Ubuntu and they have some dev wrappers for running native stuff in amazon linux containers it's mostly about how much cpu/memory you need to run stuff :/. I should have clarified that my Amazon knowledge is pretty out of date (mid-2000's). It's not surprising that they've made advances, considering that EC2 was just beginning to be a thing when i was working there. I remember when they first started trying to get us to put all our stuff on VMs instead of actual physical machines.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:49
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Munkeymon posted:wearing a tie with a polo would be weird A tie with a polo would be pretty much peak "SV dev trying to dress up".
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Oct 13, 2017 20:17
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B-Nasty posted:This image represents my understanding of the dress levels (except for smart casual, which looks too try-hard): Just lol when your definition of "casual" still includes a collar
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Oct 13, 2017 21:08
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B-Nasty posted:This image represents my understanding of the dress levels (except for smart casual, which looks too try-hard): Casual should be a guy in swim trunks, a bright Hawaiian shirt, and Vibrams.
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Oct 13, 2017 21:28
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