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DoktorLoken posted:Maybe address systemic racism, poverty and a lack of proper mental health care? Or why a certain segment of men in our country feel so isolated and angry at society that they're willing to lash out and murder 50+ people. Instead we're just going to jerk off to yet another pointless gun control debate. Why not both? Both are issues. Yes, Racism, Poverty, and Lack of Mental healthcare are a significant part of it, but in no way invalidates how broken firearms laws are. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 00:07
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DoktorLoken posted:systemic racism, poverty and a lack of proper mental health care DoktorLoken posted:so isolated and angry at society that they're willing to lash out and murder 50+ people These things are quintessentially American, and I really don't think you'll find a way to change them any time soon.
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Oct 12, 2017 00:08
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When you go get mental health care because you want to kill yourself they take your shoelaces and belt even though your shoe laces and belt aren't the problem.
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Oct 12, 2017 00:24
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Now you're just going to get people refusing to seek treatment for their illness because they're afraid of losing their rights and being ostracized. Plus if you've been adjudicated mentally delinquent you're ineligible to own firearms already. I'm sure plenty of us here have had or are undergoing mental health care and also own firearms; just because you have mental health issues doesn't mean you're necessarily a danger to yourself or others. But I agree: people who are a danger shouldn't possess firearms during that time but it's a rather difficult topic to crack when you factor in things like HIPAA and other privacy issues.
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Oct 12, 2017 00:30
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I agree it's a cultural issue, but it's that cultural issue that drives gun culture in the US and with it, the profits. Lots of countries have guns and lots of countries have racism. The paranoia, terror at the thought of the other, and cult of baddassery that drives people to stockpile weapons not cause they need the tool or because they just like guns, but because they want to feel tough, and that same urge is a big part in shootings. For street shootings, partner violence and mass shootings, they all so often come down to power and performative toughness. But you'll have an easier time confiscating the guns than changing gun culture, because gun culture drives the $$. If it was just hobbyists, hunters, and the small handful of people who are more likely to be saved by a gun than blow their own face off, there'd be a couple hundred million fewer guns in America.
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Oct 12, 2017 01:40
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:When you go get mental health care because you want to kill yourself they take your shoelaces and belt even though your shoe laces and belt aren't the problem. Right, because there's evidence (arguably) that you might pose a threat to yourself. They don't the laces and belt from everyone in the nation.
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Oct 12, 2017 06:01
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if you take away people's guns, their shoes will come loose and their pants will fall down
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Oct 12, 2017 06:50
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CommieGIR posted:Why not both? Both are issues. Yes, Racism, Poverty, and Lack of Mental healthcare are a significant part of it, but in no way invalidates how broken firearms laws are. Yeah lets fix our social safety net, hosed up cultural norms, and overly permissive gun culture concurrently. Perhaps there is a way, if we constructed a platform that would appeal to like minded individuals, that we could get these related and synergistic policies enacted at the same time...
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Oct 12, 2017 07:10
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Godholio posted:Right, because there's evidence (arguably) that you might pose a threat to yourself. What if your belt and shoe laces posed a threat to other people, though, as we as a culture have pretty much shown to be the case with outrageous gun violence levels?
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Oct 12, 2017 07:12
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at the date posted:if you take away people's guns, their shoes will come loose and their pants will fall down 50 percent of America's shoelaces are owned by 3 percent of its citizens.
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Oct 12, 2017 07:15
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Y'all are loving morons. slaves are a right granted by the loving Constitution idiots just because you don't want or need slaves you don't need to take everyone's. You guys keep trying to legislate away things you don't understand those aren't slaves they're indentured servants and sharecroppers.
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Oct 12, 2017 08:25
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Man, if only the Jews had had guns loving 
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Oct 12, 2017 08:49
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are y'all for actual realz
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Oct 12, 2017 08:49
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Man, if only the Jews had had guns 
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Oct 12, 2017 11:12
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I'm for responsible slave ownership. I think there needs to be more restrictions on the types of slaves people have and we can't allow just anyone to go get a slave. I say this as a slave owner.
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Oct 12, 2017 13:04
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Wasabi the J posted:I'm for responsible slave ownership. I think there needs to be more restrictions on the types of slaves people have and we can't allow just anyone to go get a slave. this is at least as dumb an analogy as Godholio's shoelaces and belts
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Oct 12, 2017 13:22
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at the date posted:this is at least as dumb an analogy as Godholio's shoelaces and belts That was my analogy, friend. And it's a pretty good analogy when people say you absolutely under no circumstances can do anything about or change the second amendment given the constitution has been altered a bunch throughout history.
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Oct 12, 2017 13:24
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:That was my analogy, friend. No, I meant Godholio's. You intended it differently and Godholio took it in a willfully stupid direction. e: Gun ownership is not like slave ownership. Jesus Christ. And the 2nd amendment is itself an alteration to the Constitution. You don't have to reach to slavery to make the point that the Constitution changes. Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 13:35
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at the date posted:No, I meant Godholio's. You intended it differently and Godholio took it in a willfully stupid direction. While the bill of rights is technically an alteration, no one was going to ratify the original without those amendments. The BoR was in the final approved constitution and have been in force since day 1. If they were added later on, you're right it wouldn't be a relevant comparison, but the BoR is what got the constitution adopted in the first place.
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Oct 12, 2017 13:45
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The Retard Olympics: "Owning a gun is like tying your shoes!" "No, owning a gun is like whipping a slave!"
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Oct 12, 2017 13:45
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Fwiw it seems people have drawn their lines in the sand and the only thing that will change anyone's mind is a drastic life event (like the dude who changed his mind about gun control after he lived through Vegas) so most of my posts can be seen as low effort trolling. Although I've never heard of someone going through some crazy poo poo and thinking we need less gun control, only the other way around. Which I think should count for something.
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Oct 12, 2017 13:49
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at the date posted:The Retard Olympics: This is gunchat, afterall. People gotta cling to their murdertoys for dear life. Rationality is out the window. We just have to accept that people are going to get massacred periodically. Sometimes it will be schoolchildren. Sometimes sodomites at a gay bar. Sometimes good god fearing country music fans in vegas. Guns aren't to blame, though.
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Oct 12, 2017 14:12
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Mr. Nice! posted:This is gunchat, afterall. People gotta cling to their murdertoys for dear life. Rationality is out the window. We just have to accept that people are going to get massacred periodically. Sometimes it will be schoolchildren. Sometimes sodomites at a gay bar. Sometimes good god fearing country music fans in vegas. Guns aren't to blame, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack
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Oct 12, 2017 14:35
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Shhh, no, see, the problem is guns, not the actual sources of violence Yep, it's the shooty tubes entirely and without shooty tubes everything would be rainbows and unicorns
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Oct 12, 2017 14:45
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We invented cars here in 'merica and we've been killing people with vehicles in creative ways since the start. There's been more recent vehicular based attacks in the United States you could have cited. Look at Charlottesville. We're lucky only one person died there. Cars and trucks at least have a justification for existence besides killing people. Just because assholes are going to be assholes regardless doesn't mean we should actively make it easier for them. Just because guns aren't the only way to kill a large group of people doesn't mean that guns have any purpose besides killing.
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Oct 12, 2017 14:48
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Is this where we measure the relative rates of violence due to the presence of vehicles vs the presence of guns? or their relative levels of regulation and documentation? barriers to ownership? How about benefit to society? If cars are such effective vehicles of committing slaughter why don't we use them to resist tyranny? At least they're multi-purpose.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:30
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Wasabi the J posted:Y'all are loving morons. slaves are a right granted by the loving Constitution idiots just because you don't want or need slaves you don't need to take everyone's. You guys keep trying to legislate away things you don't understand those aren't slaves they're indentured servants and sharecroppers.  The Constitution grants rights you guys. Anyway, that Constitution didn't survive the Civil War.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:38
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Regulating firearms similar to motor vehicles would be an amazing start. Mandatory liability insurance, registration, licensing requirements, etc.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:40
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I'm perfectly fine with more stringent performance testing for CCW. In both states I've gotten a permit through, the test was a joke. The AF M9 qual was "harder." Edit: I also think you should have to retest every decade or two for a driver's license, but 
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Oct 12, 2017 15:42
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Professor Bling posted:Shhh, no, see, the problem is guns, not the actual sources of violence Like 20 people have said that both should be taken care of. There's more than one firearm per person in the US and if you don't think that contributes to the violence then you're just kind of stupid. Do you really think we shouldn't at the very least take a closer look at someone who buys 30+ firearms in a 12 month span?
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Oct 12, 2017 15:42
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There are a lot of other things that contribute too. You're trying to focus on ONE, using means that are either unconstitutional, unenforceable, or of little/no preventative value.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:43
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Godholio posted:There are a lot of other things that contribute too. You're trying to focus on ONE, using means that are either unconstitutional, unenforceable, or of little/no preventative value.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:51
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Mr. Nice! posted:Regulating firearms similar to motor vehicles would be an amazing start. Mandatory liability insurance, registration, licensing requirements, etc. DRIVNIG IS A PRIViLIEGE, NOT T A RiGHT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE This is what I encounter in almost every instance where a guarded approach of common sense it attempted, and there's no real way to get the conversation back in any goal-oriented fashion after that. Not that it was going in a goal-oriented direction to begin with, but whatever. Also, another lol at the Hitler taking the guns argument from last page
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Oct 12, 2017 15:52
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NUKES CURE NORKS posted:People have suggested actual ideas for gun control. You've just said "no we need to focus on this instead" without suggesting actual ideas. It looks like you're more anti-taking your guns than actually solving the problem. I think all I've really taken a stand against was registration and arbitrary bans. I'm fine with background checks. I think we should make them more efficient, even. Improved safety, operation, and marksmanship education/testing.
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Oct 12, 2017 15:55
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Godholio posted:I think all I've really taken a stand against was registration and arbitrary bans. Again, you have yet to demonstrate how a registry would negate the ability of a government to just come and take your guns anyways. Because registered or not, they will. And that's fully ignoring that this is just another dumpster fire built off the "They're gonna take our GUNNNNZZZ" conspiracy theory that has little to no merit, especially considering the only time it happened in New Orleans, a law was passed at the Federal level making that illegal. And then you go and assume any government that is going to do so is going to follow the law anyways! The only difference between your claims and the NRA's is you are not going all out with your conspiracy theory.
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Oct 12, 2017 16:02
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So, I live in Georgia. We have some dumbass state representative that tries to pass a highly restrictive features based assault weapons ban every year for the last few years, including confiscating those guns. There is less than no chance of this happening in this state, granted. But there are some people on the gun control side of things, and they tend to be gun control activists who help write these laws, that flat out don't want to people to own guns, or at least to treat them like they do in many other countries---like dangerous, closely regulated sporting goods, with no robust provisions for self defense that aren't super classist and burdensome on something I consider a right (right to self-defense...I view this as more of a natural law thing than necessarily supporting the second amendment). I don't think this is a conspiracy by any means, it's just the people who are really interested in this issue, at least enough to be lobbying for it, likely have really strong views on owning guns or gun control. Between seeing stuff like this, and being a gun owner in California, I have zero faith in any kind of goodwill of people pushing gun control. These groups were fighting in the Heller court decision over a full on handgun ban in Washington DC, and a requirement that rifles and shotguns had to be kept unloaded and trigger locked or disassembled. For these folks, that seems to be the endpoint for their "common sense" laws. That doesn't mean that I like a lot of pro-gun people, and I loving loathe the latest series of Breitbart-style garbage being puked out by various NRA talking heads. I don't necessarily oppose more gun control measures, but I feel that in a practical sense that the people strongly pushing this are just looking for pre-Heller DC laws in the fullness of time. I'm highly skeptical of a registry, but I think that it's arguably constitutional, especially if was an automatic point of sale registration. And I don't really have any problem with "treating guns like cars", but to me that would mean honoring people's carry permits in all 50 states, no charge for a license if you're low income, and additional training/endorsements for more dangerous guns, not putting any kind of gun beyond reach of people, even if it wasn't ever "street/carry" legal. Problematic Soup fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 17:14
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That’s pretty much how I feel...
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Oct 12, 2017 17:57
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CommieGIR posted:Again, you have yet to demonstrate how a registry would negate the ability of a government to just come and take your guns anyways. Because registered or not, they will. Two points: 1-The list of historical examples yields results ranging from further dividing people politically to nefariously motivated government seizures to a lack of intended results. I don't have to demonstrate anything. You're the one claiming a registry will do something, a significant event which will necessitate a major political movement and that will somehow yield superior results. That's where the burden of proof lies. 2-So let's just make it easy? I mean...I guess that's one approach to anything of importance. Let's just give up on healthcare and any of a thousand other, more important issues just because they're hard. 
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Oct 13, 2017 00:23
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o cool, the same retards are still making the same retarded masturbatory points past each other in here. carry on
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Oct 13, 2017 00:32
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The thread title says gunchat, what'd you expect?
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Oct 13, 2017 00:33
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