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I'll agree that it's better than the insanely dumb looking elephant ogre space jockeys they had in one of the alien comics. But it comes off a little close to the whole toga-wearing advanced civilization trope, especially given the city we see in covenant with them all in robes. ironically I liked them better in prometheus, where they looked human, but were biomechanical and very inhuman in their behaviour. In covenant, seeing them all in the robes in a classical-looking city, was disappointing, especially as they were apparently very easily deceived by david.
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Oct 13, 2017 03:37
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Uncle Wemus posted:For some reason i noticed that there are those novelty drinking birds in a couple of the movies, including prometheus and covenant, is there any significance to this because it seems like an odd thing to include. It's the perfect true final form of the black goo.
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Oct 13, 2017 03:37
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juggalo baby coffin posted:I'll agree that it's better than the insanely dumb looking elephant ogre space jockeys they had in one of the alien comics. But it comes off a little close to the whole toga-wearing advanced civilization trope, especially given the city we see in covenant with them all in robes. those beings arent engineers
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Oct 13, 2017 04:44
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i apologise for expecting compelling creature design from the alien franchise. Those are two entirely different characters.
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Oct 13, 2017 05:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Those are two entirely different characters. of the same race
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Oct 13, 2017 05:28
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i mean really, do you not understand how finding out that this: was actually just a costume for this:  is disappointing?
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Oct 13, 2017 05:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:i mean really, do you not understand how finding out that this: i get what you're trying to do, but it's stupid, and you're just being a dickhead edit: to elaborate, the space jockey elephant-face suit is shown in prometheus as being something worn by the engineer race, thus suggesting to even the meanest intelligence that the original space jockey was also en engineer. the space jockey was a very cool design, featuring human-style elements like the skull, rib motif, a lower lip and teeth structure, and non-human elements such as the fact it appeared fused to its seat, had a trunk attached to its face, and was much much larger than a human. to find out that the space jockey, beneath its suit, was just a larger human, was disappointing, as it revealed that something that up until that point was assumed to be the full body of the creature, was in fact a costume for a far simpler design, that of a large, white human. I don't know if you're only capable of drawing conclusions between things that don't actually have any supporting evidence, but anyone else on earth would understand what I was talking about. juggalo baby coffin fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 05:39
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The space jockey is as cool a design for a spacesuit as it is for a creature. That a humanoid creature would dress up like that is, itself, cool.
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Oct 13, 2017 05:54
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I'm not gonna lie, I was kind of expecting some kind of hosed up elephant-squid-man too and the giant chalk boy underwhelmed me a bit.
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Oct 13, 2017 05:56
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I wouldn't even mind if the space jockey was a bio-engineered variant of the base engineer race. Just the fact they would modify their bodies to such an extent to fill a role would show a fundamentally different psychology to a human. But all that we are actually shown in the films shows them being psychologically similar to humans, just in the few behaviors we see. They have an icky sense of interior decoration, but then again there is a hr giger bar entirely decked out like that, so the prometheus engineer ship could just belong to some goth engineers. The others we see are just wearing robes.
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Oct 13, 2017 06:09
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I think it's pretty clear that there are two castes or cultures or classes of engineer at minimum, the robe wearing guys stupid enough to drink the black goo and the biomechanoid elephant-mask wearing spaceship pilots. The latter might literally be dressing up as gods of the former.
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Oct 13, 2017 06:14
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1) The dead creature shown in Alien is not an engineer, unless it is severely mutated. The proportions and anatomy are extremely different. It is also substantially larger, and a different colour. 2) The creature shown at the start of Prometheus is also not an engineer. He has no biomechanical parts - because the entire prologue takes place possibly millions of years ago, probably on another planet, and is also implied to be a dream sequence. 3) Even if these were all the same dude, you are throwing out costuming and all other forms of characterization, to fixate on ‘racial attributes’.
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Oct 13, 2017 06:32
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The "space jockey" race was genetically modified by the Engineers into a race of living space-suits.
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Oct 13, 2017 06:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:1) The dead creature shown in Alien is not an engineer, unless it is severely mutated. The proportions and anatomy are extremely different. It is also substantially larger, and a different colour. more than just the same race, originally the engineer in prometheus and the space jockey in alien were THE SAME INDIVIDUAL. when the film was still called aliens: engineer the script had david revive the original space jockey, who was on a mission to wipe out earth by deploying the xenomorph eggs. Ridley scott decided he wanted it set on a different planet and did not want to include the xenomorphs, so it was moved, and the eggs were replaced with black goo. Now obviously the planned course of the movies has diverged from that original script, but the description of the space jockey in alien engineer and the engineer in prometheus are the same. They are inarguably members of the same race, as evidenced by a thousand and one pieces of material from interviews, deleted scenes, production documents, etc. The space jockey changes scale IN ALIEN because in some shots they used children wearing space suits to make the set loot bigger, and in others they are the adult actors. The different colour is because it is meant to be fossilized. It has an exoskeletal design, and the bodies of dried out, dead insects are far lighter in colour than a living insect. The engineer in prometheus emerges from a seat that is clearly intended to be recognised as kin to the one the space jockey in alien was sat in. And as for costuming and characterization, we see two costumes. A space suit and then robes in the prometheus deleted scenes and the alien covenant town setting. Both essentially human outfits, despite the space suit looking stranger than ours. They behave in a recognisably human fashion, displaying irrational anger in prometheus, then curiosity and fear in covenant.
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Oct 13, 2017 07:16
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juggalo baby coffin posted:more than just the same race, originally the engineer in prometheus and the space jockey in alien were THE SAME INDIVIDUAL. when the film was still called aliens: engineer the script had david revive the original space jockey, who was on a mission to wipe out earth by deploying the xenomorph eggs. Ridley scott decided he wanted it set on a different planet and did not want to include the xenomorphs, so it was moved, and the eggs were replaced with black goo. Now obviously the planned course of the movies has diverged from that original script, but the description of the space jockey in alien engineer and the engineer in prometheus are the same. You're talking about a movie that never existed.
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Oct 13, 2017 07:23
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Lord Krangdar posted:You're talking about a movie that never existed. read the rest of what you quoted. edit: the loving alien covenant promo site said the space jockey was an engineer
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Oct 13, 2017 08:03
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juggalo baby coffin posted:ironically I liked them better in prometheus, where they looked human, but were biomechanical and very inhuman in their behaviour. In covenant, seeing them all in the robes in a classical-looking city, was disappointing, especially as they were apparently very easily deceived by david. Deceived? A space ship like the ones they are used to shows up, they come out to greet it, then it bombs them. That's not "deception," it's just firing instead of docking.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:22
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It's been brought up before, but the flashback sequence in Covenant is very Ancient Aliens, it's almost like Scott purposely tried to create the prototypical scenario that you'd hear about constantly on one of those history channel shows with the big haired guy. It's the classic "return of the gods" scene that some claim played out in a bunch of ancient cultures who knew about aliens but worshiped them as gods. So it's a world that's obviously heavily influenced and/or controlled by the Engineers, but so was Earth at one time. Those beings have clearly seen Engineers before, and have modeled themselves after them, but it actually fits in more with the themes of the films if they are just another alien race similar to us that the Engineers have interacted with over the past thousands of years. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 14:32
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I honestly don't understand the "Engineers are albino white guys what a loving crock" thing. Honestly, how much more interesting, or how much better is the film made, if we turn the engineer from Prometheus into a bipedal humanoid with a flaccid nose willy? They've got two arms, two eyes, presumably two legs. They've got a rib cage. They've got a torso. They've got a pelvis. Just mentally superimpose an elephant trunk onto the engineer in Prometheus and give him an extra three feet in height. How is the movie any better for it? How is this any more "mysterious" or "better", inherently, assuming the story stays the same? The only thing that would have changed is nerds like us speculating as to how a species like that could have evolved *what fun*. It's like asking why Shaw's hair was red because there were no gingers in the first film. In fact, the idea that you have two different castes of engineers, one the mighty high tech-suit-wearing biomechnical shitlords who go around playing God and getting eaten by their creations, and the lowly monk peasants that are so tied up in their religion that the entire town literally stops everything to come out to the town square to watch a spaceship loving complete docking procedures, is endlessly more interesting than "this species has elephant trunks (biological/racial attribute)". Shrimp or Shrimps fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 15:30
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The complaint that "Engineers are white guys" is all the more bizarre because the original Alien heavily suggests that the cool biomechanical space jockey was just a hick space trucker who died because the company he worked for had him transport improperly secured hazardous materials.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:42
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Really the only way to avoid those kind of complaints would have been to just not make movies about the Space Jockey at all. Because if it were a weird elephant creature people would still complain, they'd say "too obvious, it's exactly what we thought it would be all these years". I for one am glad Scott said gently caress those complainers I'm just gonna make the movie I want to make.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:47
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Basebf555 posted:Really the only way to avoid those kind of complaints would have been to just not make movies about the Space Jockey at all. Because if it were a weird elephant creature people would still complain, they'd say "too obvious, it's exactly what we thought it would be all these years". The design of the original "space jockey" version looks like he's sorta just melted or fused into the cockpit. So anything they'd do with centering around him would have to retcon the design at least somewhat.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:53
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Lord Krangdar posted:The design of the original "space jockey" version looks like he's sorta just melted or fused into the cockpit. So anything they'd do with centering around him would have to retcon the design at least somewhat. I think the way it's handled in Prometheus takes care of that pretty well, the suit is like mechanically intertwined with the chair and so it makes sense to me that it would look that way in Alien after it's been sitting there for thousands of years(if not longer).
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Oct 13, 2017 16:02
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Basebf555 posted:I think the way it's handled in Prometheus takes care of that pretty well, the suit is like mechanically intertwined with the chair and so it makes sense to me that it would look that way in Alien after it's been sitting there for thousands of years(if not longer). The two designs look pretty different to me, in the details, besides just age. The space jockey's face is almost cute. It also has a much different head shape. Not that I mind the changes; they were necessary for practical reasons.
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Oct 13, 2017 16:11
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Lord Krangdar posted:The two designs look pretty different to me, in the details, besides just age. The space jockey's face is almost cute. It also has a much different head shape. I like the idea that the Jockey in Alien isn't in a suit but and that's literally what he looks like and he/his folks created the Engineers, who (the Prometheus ones at least) have a great understanding of bio-mechanics that they've used to model their stuff after the ways of their creators the same we all of human culture has done throughout history.
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Oct 13, 2017 16:26
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Neo Rasa posted:I like the idea that the Jockey in Alien isn't in a suit but and that's literally what he looks like and he/his folks created the Engineers, who (the Prometheus ones at least) have a great understanding of bio-mechanics that they've used to model their stuff after the ways of their creators the same we all of human culture has done throughout history. I always thought of it the other way, that the Engineers treated them as livestock and subjugated their race as a source of bio-technology. In one of the murals in Prometheus you briefly see what looks like an Engineer forcing a blobby space jockey dude to kneel before him.
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Oct 13, 2017 16:28
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Basebf555 posted:It's been brought up before, but the flashback sequence in Covenant is very Ancient Aliens, it's almost like Scott purposely tried to create the prototypical scenario that you'd hear about constantly on one of those history channel shows with the big haired guy. It's the classic "return of the gods" scene that some claim played out in a bunch of ancient cultures who knew about aliens but worshiped them as gods. Ancient Aliens is produced by Prometheus Entertainment.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:58
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Hodgepodge posted:Deceived? A space ship like the ones they are used to shows up, they come out to greet it, then it bombs them. That's not "deception," it's just firing instead of docking. do they not have air traffic control? even fuckin star wars got that right, and star wars is one of the dumbest movies ever. the other weird thing is that the space jockey in alien was intended by dan o'bannon and hr giger to be a benign, empathetic character, rather than something threatening. It was always meant to be a victim to be sympathised with. But if it is an engineer, it's part of a civilisation that intends to wipe out humanity for some reason. So I hope they are different species. The treatement of the space jockey in alien always reminded me of the narrator in HP lovecraft's 'at the mountains of madness', where he's discussing how the elder things were wiped out by the shoggoths. Despite their bizarre form, he could recognise the elder things as being fundamentally kin to humanity in their ambitions and passions, so he mourns their loss to the shoggoths. 'They were men, god damnit'. I dunno. Prometheus and Alien Covenant just make me think ridley scott and some hack screenwriter watched way too much of the history channel and got bad ideas.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:26
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juggalo baby coffin posted:do they not have air traffic control? even fuckin star wars got that right, and star wars is one of the dumbest movies ever. Again, these issues are due to what I believe is you misinterpreting that scene. It's the Anunnaki returning to the Babylonia, it's aliens using the Nazca lines as a runways for spaceships, etc. So the idea that these beings should have some sort of verification process for the Engineer ship is both irrelevant(they regard them as gods so why be suspicious of the ship?), and just illogical(there's no reason to assume this civilization is anywhere near advanced enough to do what you're saying).
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Oct 13, 2017 20:37
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juggalo baby coffin posted:I dunno. Prometheus and Alien Covenant just make me think ridley scott and some hack screenwriter watched way too much of the history channel and got bad ideas. I think it's just that they weren't concerned with "making a cool backstory for the Alien" and instead wanted to make movies about their own things. Ridley Scott has been pretty open about how he wants to tell stories about creation and destruction and why AI is a big focus in his new movies. I think it's really silly to say "He saw ancient aliens and thought 'this is such a good idea for the origin of the xenomorph'" when he names his movie "Covenant", previously "Paradise Lost" and opens it with an uncaring god demeaning his creation. Do I think Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods type stuff is complete bullshit and stupid? Of course. But when you want to tell a certain kind of story in science fiction, and draw religious parallels with different species creating each other and literally giving birth to each other, it's a great story devices.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:46
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Ancient Alien stories are dumb but in a pulpy, fun way that I can't help but enjoy.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:49
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Xenomrph posted:Compare it with a similar Predator anthology that just came out, which by all accounts does take risks and explore new ideas, and is better for it. Are you talking about "If it Bleeds" ? And if so, you liked it? I was thinking about getting it but I really did not enjoy the Colonial Marines thing, and I was afraid "Bleeds" would be similar
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Oct 13, 2017 20:53
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Basebf555 posted:Ancient Alien stories are dumb but in a pulpy, fun way that I can't help but enjoy. Yeah, and they also have an thematic role in science fiction of "killing gods/religion". In like, Stargate SG-1, for example, the fact that all gods worshipped everywhere were actually aliens with advanced technology, is a central point in the bigger theme of "religion is bullshit, and the way forward is through rational choices and honest communication". You could take away the ancient aliens aspect of Stargate and it wouldn't really impact the plot much at all, but it would drastically alter the themes of people reflecting on their society and continuing to reexamine and improve themselves.
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Oct 13, 2017 20:59
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MrMojok posted:Are you talking about "If it Bleeds" ? And if so, you liked it? I was thinking about getting it but I really did not enjoy the Colonial Marines thing, and I was afraid "Bleeds" would be similar I haven't had a chance to read all of it, but some of my friends have and they loved it. They said it was leagues better than 'Aliens: Bug Hunt'. Comparing the behind-the-scenes of the two books has been interesting - for the Predator anthology a bunch of the authors have come forward to answer questions about their stories and they all seem really upbeat about the whole experience and proud of their work, and the editor has been really active and engaging about the book even several months back, and apparently a second Predator anthology is already being considered and the first one isn't even out at retail yet. Compare that to Bug Hunt, which got no press, no interviews or feedback with the authors or editor, and got released to no fanfare and received about as warmly as a wet fart. Bug Hunt is a bad book overall but it had one or two stories that were borderline alright. The story from Burke's POV after he gets captured and cocooned is novel, and Dan Abnett's story is pretty neat but that's more a testament to his talent as a writer than anything inherent to the source material. I'm confident he could do a tie-in book for literally anything and make it interesting.
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Oct 13, 2017 21:04
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juggalo baby coffin posted:do they not have air traffic control? even fuckin star wars got that right, and star wars is one of the dumbest movies ever. If you were thinking about air traffic control, the problem might not be with the movie, dude.
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Oct 13, 2017 21:13
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Hodgepodge posted:If you were thinking about air traffic control, the problem might not be with the movie, dude. Yeah what’s bizarre with Juggalo is that he’s talking about ‘race science’, obscure promotional materials, alternate screenplays, etc., and then actively ignoring what happens in all the films. So he’s asking why the ancient society that drinks water out of troughs doesn’t have radar and telecommunication.
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Oct 13, 2017 22:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yeah what’s bizarre with Juggalo is that he’s talking about ‘race science’, obscure promotional materials, alternate screenplays, etc., and then actively ignoring what happens in all the films. So he’s asking why the ancient society that drinks water out of troughs doesn’t have radar and telecommunication. It occurs to me that since he needs an explanation, one could simply find a wiki article that potentially explains them and leave it at that. In that spirit, the people David nuked were Exodite Eldar.
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Oct 14, 2017 00:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yeah what’s bizarre with Juggalo is that he’s talking about ‘race science’, obscure promotional materials, alternate screenplays, etc., and then actively ignoring what happens in all the films. So he’s asking why the ancient society that drinks water out of troughs doesn’t have radar and telecommunication. they have a spaceport and skyscrapers
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Oct 14, 2017 01:13
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juggalo baby coffin posted:they have a spaceport and skyscrapers In the fiction of these films, so did Egypt and the Nazca.
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Oct 14, 2017 01:33
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Rewatching Alien Resurrection and holy smokes its a lot worse than I remember. Like its so overwhelmingly Joss Whedon its insane, its like a TV show.
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Oct 15, 2017 09:06
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