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ok so assume the poor person is a perfect sphere-
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Oct 13, 2017 14:22
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ubi is not a replacement for uhc (which child care would be covered under, imo) and i'm not sure it replaces housing assistance either
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Oct 13, 2017 14:23
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ate all the Oreos posted:where the hell do you live, canada? I didn't realize y'all's healthcare only covered "life-threatening" things, and you had to pay for school buses if your address starts with "turn off country road 4 at big ed's" then you may have to pay a surcharge for buses, otherwise it's covered by your municipal school tax for the "life threatening things" It's a bit more complete than that; like, if you break your arm or sprain your ankle or your dumb rear end goes to the ER cause you got a sniffle, you'll be seen and treated and you won't pay a fee. the cast is free, the crutches aren't, talking to your GP's free, minor in-office treatments like wart removals or whatever cost a bit; surgery's free, anaesthestic isn't; in-care home supplies are sometimes free and sometimes they're not, drugs are subsidized but some are still stupid expensive, etc etc.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:26
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flakeloaf posted:yes, i literally believe poor people sit in their empty, unfurnished rental units and spend their entire days absorbing nutrition from the sun like houseplants Everyone knows that's Soylent bros, not poor people.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:31
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Bhodi posted:ubi is not a replacement for uhc (which child care would be covered under, imo) and i'm not sure it replaces housing assistance either childcare belongs under education along w/ after school support and meal assistance.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:35
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flakeloaf posted:surgery's free, anaesthestic isn't lol that's hosed up
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Oct 13, 2017 14:35
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I don't quite understand how moving is supposed to be such a tragedy here but I'm 80% sure this woman putting herself through the emotional ringer is more harmful to the kids than changing schools
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Oct 13, 2017 14:36
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ate all the Oreos posted:lol that's hosed up
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Oct 13, 2017 14:36
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subsidizing the ever loving gently caress out of childcare worked out pretty well for Quebec full employment whaaaaaaaddup
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Oct 13, 2017 14:44
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C.H.O.M.E posted:the american system makes sense when you realize that they used to break into homes of women on welfare in the middle of the night to make sure there were no men staying there “who could pay the bills” so they could cut them off. like that doesn't still happen https://patch.com/michigan/across-mi/rapist-gets-joint-custody-child-fathered-attack-michigan-judge quote:The woman told The Detroit News she has been receiving about $260 a month in food stamps, as well as health insurance for her son.
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Oct 13, 2017 14:51
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Pittsburgh Fentanyl Cloud posted:Lol, yeah, sure, like I’m going to believe you have friends. well, okay, hmm, the average person anyway
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Oct 13, 2017 14:55
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flakeloaf posted:mike harris was a regressive hellfucker but some of his turds shined up not too badly how can anyone be this stupid only good thing he did was increase lcbo and beer store operating hours, and that was only done to distract everyone from the real damage being done
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Oct 13, 2017 14:56
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Chris Knight posted:how can anyone be this stupid he also got rid of OAC, deduplicated a bunch of little governments, and ontario works didn't turn out that badly, did it the answer to that is "yeah and albert speer drew some really nice buildings"
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Oct 13, 2017 15:04
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flakeloaf posted:drugs are subsidized but some are still stupid expensive a frequent proposal debated in america is to allow americans to import "cheap drugs" from canada
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Oct 13, 2017 15:07
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MononcQc posted:It depends. You're thinking in a specific american frame where almost anything is better than the poo poo you have right now. Here it's a bit different. We're talking about American ubi ya idiot, within American framework There is absolutely no reason ubi should somehow break emergency payments nor have anything to do with administration of health care But also most of the things you talk about are getting rebates or tax credits after you already had to put up your own money: why would UBI replace or remove that? fishmech fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 15:08
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Dixie Cretin Seaman posted:a frequent proposal debated in america is to allow americans to import "cheap drugs" from canada something something bombardier
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Oct 13, 2017 15:08
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Bhodi posted:ubi is not a replacement for uhc (which child care would be covered under, imo) and i'm not sure it replaces housing assistance either Housing assistance is usually a rather small amount of money, most sensible ubi rates would more than cover it easily. Special circumstances where you actually need a full 1600 a month rent covered on top of everything else would be covered by reduced scope programs for such special circumstances.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:12
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yeah UBI in the us would replace other direct to consumer cash-like grants like SNAP where the cost of administering SNAP and its restrictions far outweighs any benefits. it doesn't replace stuff like Medicaid which a 3rd party payment system with which the patient is not involved. housing is a whole other thing cause prices vary so wildly from place to place and plenty of places artificially restrict housing to keep people out (ex: SF). housing assistance would require more than just payments and would probably require using threats to revoke federal funds as a bludgeon to change local anti-housing policy.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:19
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ate all the Oreos posted:where the hell do you live, canada? I didn't realize y'all's healthcare only covered "life-threatening" things, and you had to pay for school buses What Flakeloaf said: flakeloaf posted:if your address starts with "turn off country road 4 at big ed's" then you may have to pay a surcharge for buses, otherwise it's covered by your municipal school tax Also the healthcare programs can vary from province to province. Anaesthetic can be free, but a consultation session with the anaesthesiologist may not be if it's for plastic surgery like corrective jaw surgery for over- or under-bites for example (may run to $1k-$2.5k depending on the case). Dentist is free until you're 10 for example. fishmech posted:We're talking about American ubi ya idiot, within American framework Oh god sorry I thought UBI could apply to places that are not the United States. I didn't realize american exceptionalism carried this far. UBI could replace or remove such things when the idea behind UBI is to remove some of the "handouts" given by a government to help its citizen. Why would you take out welfare or some unemployement insurance, while leaving other financial measures untouched? For example, in some [non-american] governments, unemployment benefits may include adult education or dental work being partly or totally covered since they can be seen to impact your ability to find work. Do you take these away as well? Or do you leave all of the unemployment and welfare covered as well? Where exactly you draw the lines with your system cuts in order to do UBI is exactly a major part of the debate, since as far as I can tell, few governments could allow themselves to keep everything and give UBI on top of it. The clear-cut vision you have of what could or couldn't be replaced by UBI is probably just due to how lovely the american social nets are.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:53
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UBI would just cause Manhattan rents to increase by exactly UBI, but somewhere out in bumfuck Oklahoma the landlord isn't going to have anywhere near that sort of pricing power. Of course, landlords would fight this tooth and nail because some unemployed bum is just going to trash the property. Because people who don't work for a living are subhuman vermin with no moral character. Unlike me; I work very hard to lift my rear end off the couch once a month and deposit my rent checks at the bank. But then landlords would be the least of your worries as far as political opposition went. I'd like to see UBI instituted and for society to decouple work from survival so that wage slavery can be abolished. Though I do worry about the resentment factor. People who work will resent the money going to people who don't. The question is how deep this attitude is; to what extent is it a learned social attitude, and to what extent is it a hard-wired lizard-brain reaction along the lines of sexual jealousy that no amount of societal programming can counteract? Like, I don't particularly enjoy my job, but even under today's system I am extremely cool with my tax money going to pay people who don't work. I don't give a poo poo whether or not they're seeking work, I'm happy to work so that others don't have to. But that's hardly true of everyone.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:54
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Sapozhnik posted:Of course, landlords would fight this tooth and nail because some unemployed bum is just going to trash the property. Because people who don't work for a living are subhuman vermin with no moral character. we had that for about eight seconds, then the government told municipalities they shall provide affordable housing, and the human rights commission told landlords to watch their loving step with how they chose their tenants not that it doesn't still happen of course, but it's usually the large corporate landlords who pull that poo poo and they're too risk-averse to stare down a tenant threatening to complain
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Oct 13, 2017 16:05
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in the uk it isn't illegal to discriminate against a housing applicant's source of income lmao guess what literally every single last housing ad says at the bottom there was also a thing in the news about how the Conservative party, a majority of whose MPs are landlords, raised a big stink about a law that would have required rental housing to be "fit for human habitation".
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Oct 13, 2017 16:08
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MononcQc posted:What Flakeloaf said: Yo, moron, what's so hard about it replacing direct payments. A loving tax rebate is anything but that, that's you paying for a thing and having to cover the cost for months before you get partial reimbursement. Like this is even dumber cuz Canadian ubi experiments and proposals have been extremely similar to the American ones too, they never like shut down the hospital because now people get ubi or whatever fishmech fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 16:42
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flakeloaf posted:yes, i literally believe poor people sit in their empty, unfurnished rental units and spend their entire days absorbing nutrition from the sun like houseplants where are your cameras? get out of my house! flakeloaf posted:deduplicated a bunch of little governments this was also an absolute dumpster fire that ended up saving nothing and loving over everyone, see: amalgamated toronto workfare fundamentally hosed over thousands because of the cuts to mcss oac, well, whatever. i think the only people griping about that were the double cohort
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Oct 13, 2017 16:45
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infernal machines posted:workfare fundamentally hosed over thousands because of the cuts to mcss what we were sold was workfare with a reasonably-funded social services agency behind it, which of course wasn't what we got because his whole plan from the beginning was "gently caress the poor or make them move out or starve, tada i fixed unemployment", because ontario pcs are the worst kind of pc even in a world where windows vista laptops exist removing oac was good amalgamating toronto was bad but amalgamating cow dick and west cow dick was probably good or neutral, i have no idea
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Oct 13, 2017 16:50
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Toronto should have seized all that land back in the 60s to preempt all the dumb poo poo they had to pick up annexing later
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Oct 13, 2017 16:51
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flakeloaf posted:we had that for about eight seconds, then the government told municipalities they shall provide affordable housing this is also a clusterfuck of epic proportions. municipalities have to fund affordable housing out of their own tax base (which is pretty much only property tax, because of the way the province handles cities), unsurprisingly that doesn't provide a lot of money for housing
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Oct 13, 2017 16:52
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grape (the penguin who was in love with that anime cardboard cut-out) died  it's got nothing to do with the tech bubel or anything i just thought y'all might like to know
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Oct 13, 2017 16:53
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infernal machines posted:this is also a clusterfuck of epic proportions. municipalities have to fund affordable housing out of their own tax base (which is pretty much only property tax, because of the way the province handles cities), unsurprisingly that doesn't provide a lot of money for housing blame harris for that, provincial housing initiatives should be provincially funded because social assistance is not a municipal issue, but try explaining to a fat gently caress on bay street that he should pay for some somali refugee in sarnia to have one of them fancy apartments what has four walls goin all the way up nope gotta keep those job creators happy, balsillie's gonna save us any day now
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Oct 13, 2017 16:57
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flakeloaf posted:blame harris for that, provincial housing initiatives should be provincially funded because social assistance is not a municipal issue, but try explaining to a fat gently caress on bay street that he should pay for some somali refugee in sarnia to have one of them fancy apartments what has four walls goin all the way up as someone who works with those fat fucks on a daily basis, they are far more concerned about the loss of income sprinkling and small business tax reform at the moment but yeah, that and pretty much everything else about consolidating municipalities was the harris government's gently caress you to the cities. they found a way to "keep taxes low" by just shoving the burden for existing services onto the municipalities without any additional funding. the whole reason toronto had to amalgamate was because etobicoke and scarborough literally couldn't fund the requisite services from their own tax base.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:15
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Rex-Goliath posted:ok so assume the poor person is a perfect sphere-
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Oct 13, 2017 17:23
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Wheany posted:not necessarily, depending on how it's implemented the money you earn could be extra money on top of the ubi. so you would clean toilets or absorb verbal abuse from customers or destroy your car delivering pizza every night for an extra $minimumwage above your ubi payment because i don't think that'd be a popular choice
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Oct 13, 2017 17:34
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that seems to be more like guaranteed minimum income than universal basic income
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Oct 13, 2017 17:37
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:so you would clean toilets or absorb verbal abuse from customers or destroy your car delivering pizza every night for an extra $minimumwage above your ubi payment ignoring the idea of clawbacks or whatever and assuming ubi was actually just universal, i think the idea is those jobs would have to start paying a lot more to entice people to do them. if that makes them untenable, then those services go away, because the market has decided they're not worth the costs.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:39
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https://twitter.com/naomi_dann/status/918864079573405696 https://twitter.com/naomi_dann/status/918864646349627392 lol
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Oct 13, 2017 17:44
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Dislike button posted:https://twitter.com/naomi_dann/status/918864079573405696 i'm glad this is finally starting to get attention since that document describing it came out months ago and i didn't hear about it anywhere beyond this drat thread
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Oct 13, 2017 17:46
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beep boop we've qualified discrimination thusly so that we can treat it algorithmically, however we will also have our human staff follow the rule-set to the letter
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Oct 13, 2017 17:47
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infernal machines posted:ignoring the idea of clawbacks or whatever and assuming ubi was actually just universal, i think the idea is those jobs would have to start paying a lot more to entice people to do them. if that makes them untenable, then those services go away, because the market has decided they're not worth the costs. yeah that's exactly what i'm saiyin if your minimum wage job pays a hair above the ubi (or adds a piddling amount to your guaranteed payout depending on how it's implemented) those poo poo jobs will lose a lotta people or be forced to pay more, or both ubi rules
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Oct 13, 2017 17:47
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there are a number of things hosed up in the us which one shouldn't entangle in the very hypothetical idea of ubi: lack of uhs already noted, but the expectation of what being on the lowest rung of the wage ladder *should* mean is actually a far bigger one, and a hard one for society to come to terms with as in: yes, the guy that fries your burger or cleans your toilet might actually be important enough to drive a nice car or shop a good cut of meat to cook up, over the weekend, which he can afford to take off but i suspect it'll come to substantial violence before that point, and long before ubi
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Oct 13, 2017 17:48
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infernal machines posted:beep boop we've qualified discrimination thusly so that we can treat it algorithmically, however we will also have our human staff follow the rule-set to the letter it's not really so they can treat it algorithmically, it's so that they can avoid exact, specific interpretations of laws without actually having to care
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Oct 13, 2017 17:49
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