|
Democrazy posted:I think I get what you're saying. My point was mainly that when people say that someone or something defeated the Soviet Union, in a way it's giving them too much credit. They didn't need someone to force the Soviet Union to collapse, their system provided enough impetus for them to collapse on their own. If I understand what you're saying, I don't think your trying to contradict that. The Soviet Union collapsed because they spent all their national resources preparing for a war that never came. If the US had done the same thing, it would've collapsed too.
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:19 |
|
|
Is it possible to separate the "intrinsic to humans" difficulty from the "has strong enemies" difficulty, or are they too closely related? I know I asked about the Black Panthers and their community programs like the breakfasts and patrols, and I need to go back and look up the response, but I was thinking that one of the big issues they faced was that they were Maoist instead of Hoxhaist, and it would have been very useful for them to have bunkers fortifying their neighborhoods. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:32
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The Soviet Union collapsed because they spent all their national resources preparing for a war that never came. If the US had done the same thing, it would've collapsed too. What war is America preparing for, then?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:35
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The Soviet Union collapsed because they spent all their national resources preparing for a war that never came. If the US had done the same thing, it would've collapsed too. well this and also there was a literal coup
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:36
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The Soviet Union collapsed because they spent all their national resources preparing for a war that never came. If the US had done the same thing, it would've collapsed too. This is straight up GOP propaganda. The causes of the fall of the USSR are many and varied, but they almost all start and end with "allowed the capitalists back in power".
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:44
|
|
|
R. Guyovich posted:the use of russian as a lingua franca for the soviet government doesn't invalidate the very obvious attempts to maintain autonomy and self-determination for ethnic minorities in the ussr (and the prc for that matter.) you might remember a little thing called world war II that got in the way of perfectly enacting early nationalities policy Yeah the soviets proved their beneficence for dissidents when they let Hungary exit peacefully back in 1956. Since then the glorious Russian anti-imperialist heroes have been nothing but unimpeachable in their commitment to self-determination for all peoples.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:48
|
|
|
R. Guyovich posted:well this and also there was a literal coup But the literal coup was by hardline members of the Soviet government, soooo...
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
Mister Facetious posted:What war is America preparing for, then? The amount the Soviet Union created as far as armaments and vehicles purely for military purposes vastly outnumbers total produced by the US during the Cold War. We were fully preparing for a War, but not in the same way the Soviets were, nor in the numbers. This is why it was always assumed a Soviet Invasion would only be stopped by a nuclear exchange due to the sheer numbers the Soviets could field. Heaps of Sheeps posted:This is straight up GOP propaganda. The causes of the fall of the USSR are many and varied, but they almost all start and end with "allowed the capitalists back in power". No, it would be GOP propaganda if it was 'The Soviet Union collapsed because of Socialism'. It would also be wholly untrue. R. Guyovich posted:well this and also there was a literal coup That helped for sure. But for the most part it was well on its way to collapsing by then, because they finally faced just how much debt they were in after decades of purposefully ignoring the cost of their Cold War preparations. The Hardliner Soviet's tried to coup to cover up this fact, but it largely collapsed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
Nocturtle posted:It's worrying that the west as a whole is trending towards nationalism if not embracing fascism right now, at a time which will probably be viewed in the future as relatively good. The steady march of capitalism coupled with global warming are likely going to significantly decrease people's standard of living, even if or especially if it's not very high right now. At some point soon we'll start losing (more) coastal cities + regions and deal with large and persistent disruptions in food production. I get that white supremacy and The problem here is that for most people 'economic growth' doesn't actually mean anything to them. They can be poor while economic growth occurs, jobless while economic growth occurs, and wracked with debt while economic growth occurs. Nationalism isn't something any particular set of genes or melanin balance is predisposed towards, but a feeling of powerlessness and being ostracized (culturally, physically, or economically) that results in a yearning for some sort of ambitious community. If we really want to crush white nationalism, we need to look at programs in the past and present that have reduced nationalism and racial supremacy; in South America the most socially progressive countries are the ones that have successfully passed economic and culturally left policies in spite of US intervention (biggest examples being Honduras before their president was removed, Cuba), in the UK the anti-migrant UKIP collapsed overnight with the release of Corbyn's party manifesto, and in the middle-east the most progressive states such as Palestine are also the ones with an abundance of technology and a government with no choice but to focus entirely on their peoples' wellbeing and survival, both literally and culturally. Meanwhile, the countries facing the greatest emergence of white nationalism are the ones facing little economic growth for the lower class and deteriorating social programs; France broke their wave of nationalism then immediately rekindles it is Macron's farcical misdeeds, Spain is training their fascists on other spanish minorities, Israel actively cultivates a culture of prejudice against palestinians and arabs to distract from their growing housing and job crisis, Greece witnessed (may still be witnessing, I haven't caught up on their news yet) a constantly rising and ebbing tide of nazi presence in perfect timing with the rise and falls of leftist parties facing off against troikan austerity, and Brazil is barreling towards the same but inverse (a burgeoning middle class dedicated to dismantling everything). The most extreme governments in the middle-east such as Iraq and Saudi Arabia saw/see "economic growth" for a despicable overclass that inherits bigoted views while the underclass starved. A significant reason behind why most black americans favor socialism and leftist ideology comes from black leaders cultivating this importance of cultural and economic support, as MLK jr. learned when support for his movement waned as local socialist movements and the black leaders siding with white liberals demanded he pick a side (his siding with the former being what invoked government-supported slander and infiltration prior to his death). 'Kill Whitey' as a joke & casual phrase, for example, only came to significance in recent times with the rise of a wealthy and economically aloof black middle-class disconnected with the reality black poor americans face. That was way more rambling than I expected to type. TLDR: Yes things will get worse, but not because of a vague 'economic growth' signifier. Even poor countries in the second paragraph have beat back nationalist supremacy through community encouragement and a focus on equalizing its citizens' quality of life.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:05
|
|
|
I'll also never forget the time that the Russians gracefully accepted the Czechs decision to adopt liberalizing reforms in the late sixties. The Soviets really showed their true colors then.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:06
|
|
|
UKIP collapsed overnight, not because of Corbyn, but because they were a one-policy party that achieved that one policy with Brexit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:07
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:I feel like it's easy for white people or those who haven't been harshly affected by racism, institutional or otherwise to say "Yeah, we're taking steps back but progress will come!" I think for a lot of us (white, privileged and liberal/left) it's more that we have to believe that progress will come if we keep trying. If we start believing that nothing can be done, and nothing will ever change, that they will always win, we'll shut down. Giving up means giving the right a green light for even worse.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:19
|
|
|
How do we get over the fact that the majority of voters simply do not care about actual policy and vote strictly on nebulous "culture" issues? Using MS-13 as a campaign scare tactic and that sort of campaign strategy seems to be working, at least in the Virginia governor race.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:I think for a lot of us (white, privileged and liberal/left) it's more that we have to believe that progress will come if we keep trying. If we start believing that nothing can be done, and nothing will ever change, that they will always win, we'll shut down. Giving up means giving the right a green light for even worse. This makes a lot of sense, and I think it's fine if y'all are talking among yourselves... but I'm not sure it's the right response if you're actually interacting with or responding to a black person who is telling you we need change right now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:UKIP collapsed overnight, not because of Corbyn, but because they were a one-policy party that achieved that one policy with Brexit. That was their original stated goal, but it was obviously anti-migrant from the start (even hoing so far as to try to organize marches), and they didn't achieve that. Not to mention how Labour seized more than half of their voters despite not taking a significant stance either way on Brexit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:23
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:This makes a lot of sense, and I think it's fine if y'all are talking among yourselves... but I'm not sure it's the right response if you're actually interacting with or responding to a black person who is telling you we need change right now. Oh absolutely. Didn't mean to give that impression, if I did. I just think it's depressing to see powerful voices giving in to despair.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:25
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:I think for a lot of us (white, privileged and liberal/left) it's more that we have to believe that progress will come if we keep trying. If we start believing that nothing can be done, and nothing will ever change, that they will always win, we'll shut down. Giving up means giving the right a green light for even worse. Progress is obviously possible. Seen any slaves recently? Child workers? Are you a woman with your own property? Are you a black person who votes? All these things are real and they are progress.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
Just to patch up some stuff I realized could be read the wrong way: Just because I'm in favor of an economic and cultural solution to the rise of fascism doesn't mean that I'm against ANTIFA in the short term. A lot of people wouldn't be alive today if local citizens hadn't been around to beat back racist goose-steppers in Charlottesville. I just think it's not a feasible long-term solution. As I've said many times before economic progress cannot move forward without social progress and vice versa; while King brings an example of a revelation of the latter, Eugene Debs realize the former when he found that racial issues could not be separated and ignored from class issues, and embraced both.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:28
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:This makes a lot of sense, and I think it's fine if y'all are talking among yourselves... but I'm not sure it's the right response if you're actually interacting with or responding to a black person who is telling you we need change right now. I think the original discussion was centered around Coates' statement that racism might not be solvable, and how even if it that's true now it might not necessarily be true in the future. White people do generally ignore the urgency of racial inequality and disagree with radical solutions, however a white person saying in response to Coates "you're definitely right and racism can't be fixed, back to enjoying myself" doesn't look very good either. In conclusion people should be more understanding of the difficulties white people face discussing racism.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:29
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:Just to patch up some stuff I realized could be read the wrong way: I agree. Antifa can't and won't be able to stop fascism that more successfully integrates with State power.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:29
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The amount the Soviet Union created as far as armaments and vehicles purely for military purposes vastly outnumbers total produced by the US during the Cold War. I didn't ask what war America was preparing for, I asked what war it is (as in currently) preparing for. Tell me what war the current military budget (including proposed increases by Trump) is being prepared for.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:30
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:The Soviet Union collapsed because they spent all their national resources preparing for a war that never came. If the US had done the same thing, it would've collapsed too. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/18/sen...y-spending.html 
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:34
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:This makes a lot of sense, and I think it's fine if y'all are talking among yourselves... but I'm not sure it's the right response if you're actually interacting with or responding to a black person who is telling you we need change right now. Speaking from my own perspective, I have a genuine problem of recognizing the inherent problems of race in this country without having any concrete way to solve the problem. For instance, to talk about the most obvious example in today's society, it's an immediate problem that many people in this country that they could be summarily murdered by a cop for seemingly any reason. This is a problem that cannot wait, and yet I have no idea how we go about solving this problem. We have an enormous problem dating to the paradoxical nature of this country founded as a slave-owning democracy and I have no idea how to address some of the most obvious and immediate symptoms of that problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:34
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:Progress is obviously possible. Seen any slaves recently? lol if you think America doesn't have slaves to this day
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:35
|
|
|
Mister Facetious posted:I didn't ask what war America was preparing for, I asked what war it is (as in currently) preparing for. It's not exactly secret that the money is mostly being spent on profiteering defense industry middlemen. It's just that saying so is a third rail.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:35
|
|
|
Mister Facetious posted:ITell me what war the current military budget (including proposed increases by Trump) is being prepared for. ....that's not what I was discussing, and fully agree we spend too much on defense?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:35
|
|
|
We were discussing the Cold War and the Soviet Union. I fully agree our current defense spending is criminal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:36
|
|
|
shower thoughts: global warming is the boomer plan to keep us from putting them all on an ice floe
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:36
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:lol if you think America doesn't have slaves to this day  https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ http://returntonow.net/2016/06/13/prison-labor-is-the-new-american-slavery/
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:shower thoughts: That would involve them believing in it first.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:Progress is obviously possible. Seen any slaves recently? Child workers? Are you a woman with your own property? Are you a black person who votes? Pretty sure we just watched a video in here somewhere of a southern gentleman worrying over the loss of his slaves.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
Nocturtle posted:I think the original discussion was centered around Coates' statement that racism might not be solvable, and how even if it that's true now it might not necessarily be true in the future. White people do generally ignore the urgency of racial inequality and disagree with radical solutions, however a white person saying in response to Coates "you're definitely right and racism can't be fixed, back to enjoying myself" doesn't look very good either. Thank you and I totally agree with this! Democrazy posted:Speaking from my own perspective, I have a genuine problem of recognizing the inherent problems of race in this country without having any concrete way to solve the problem. For instance, to talk about the most obvious example in today's society, it's an immediate problem that many people in this country that they could be summarily murdered by a cop for seemingly any reason. This is a problem that cannot wait, and yet I have no idea how we go about solving this problem. We have an enormous problem dating to the paradoxical nature of this country founded as a slave-owning democracy and I have no idea how to address some of the most obvious and immediate symptoms of that problem. The entire justice system needs to be rebuilt and no one wants to admit it, because it means confronting some really uncomfortable poo poo and it's a huge project that would be daunting as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:40
|
|
|
mdemone posted:I don't understand. I thought it was generally accepted that Collins was going to run for governor. I remember seeing a poll a couple months back that she likely wouldn't clear the GOP primary. As much as Collins is liked in Maine, she has to first appeal to the same people who elected Paul Lepage, arguably the most racist governor in the US. Her being the most prominent Republican to stand in the way of the ACA repeal doesn't do her any favours there. Glad she decided against running so Lepage doesn't get to appoint her replacement. Also it makes the chances that the next governor of Maine will be an independent or Democrat greater cause if she did win the GOP nom she'd likely get a lot of support from both of those groups.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:43
|
|
|
Nevvy Z posted:Pretty sure we just watched a video in here somewhere of a southern gentleman worrying over the loss of his slaves. Mass slavery then. I'm pretty sure you don't believe we still have plantations full of slaves like in 1820. (yes I know about that lovely prison before you post)
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:43
|
|
|
And how much discretionary spending should there be on health care?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:45
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:Mass slavery then. I'm pretty sure you don't believe we still have plantations full of slaves like in 1820. (yes I know about that lovely prison before you post) Peak slavery in the US was 4 million slaves. I'm finding it hard to get exact numbers on the current number of prisoners in labor programs, but we know it is the norm now. We have 2.2 million people incarcerated of which, 880,000 are African Americans. Estimates of human trafficking range from 60,000 - 2+ million, depending on your definition. So even using the lower estimates, if you add up legal and illegal slavery we still have over a million people enslaved in the US. So we're reduced the amount of slavery in the US economy by 75% since before the civil war, now that's what I call progress! (Also lol at "that lovely prison" you realize we have actual agricultural plantation prisons right? Also agricultural workers are a huge part of the illegal slave economy in the US.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:47
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:
I need more of you in government jobs and the rest of you acting in elected public leadership, it is going to take both to save the world. Heroes are needed now, and you can make a difference.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:48
|
|
|
Koalas March posted:
You can show this with a cold look at the numbers: a conservative estimate, based on DNA exonerations in death row cases, is that 5-10% of convicted murderers are actually innocent. Since death row cases are more heavily litigated and typically receive better defense, the real numbers are probably far higher. Anyone with an open pair of eyes who's worked in the justice system knows it's hugely, massively, immensely, unspeakably racist and discriminatory, to the point that calling it a "justice system" is a double misnomer. But what judge can ever admit that to themselves? What prosecutor? It would be like waking up one morning and suddenly realizing you'd spent your life working as a plantation overseer. But then you step back and ask "why don't we have a reform based system, like in Sweden?" and the answer is "Because white people don't want minority offenders reformed, they want them punished and segregated".
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:48
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:That was way more rambling than I expected to type. TLDR: Yes things will get worse, but not because of a vague 'economic growth' signifier. Even poor countries in the second paragraph have beat back nationalist supremacy through community encouragement and a focus on equalizing its citizens' quality of life. I don't disagree with your points, the conditions that drive reactionary politics can definitely exist even when there's overall net economic growth. My main observation is that it's very bad news that the west is already flirting with fascism. Material conditions for the large majority of humanity are likely only going to get worse in future due to global economic disruption caused by climate change. That will likely intensify whatever economic or cultural forces that are driving people towards right-wing authoritarianism, and empirically we seem to be pretty far down that path already.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:19 |
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:lol if you think America doesn't have slaves to this day One our of most recent presidential candidates even
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2017 17:49
|
|