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Heaps of Sheeps posted:One our of most recent presidential candidates even Heck, Obama and Trump both used slave labor to help fill out their federal budgets. And Obama refused to free them.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:49
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That's a bit misleading because it's just discretionary spending, in terms of all spending entitlement programs take the cake. Not to say that the military budget isn't overlarge as a consequence of graft, bloat, and buying poo poo we don't need, but entitlements should be reformed too.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:50
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capitalism is a wage slave system.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:51
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:That's a bit misleading because it's just discretionary spending, in terms of all spending entitlement programs take the cake. Good thing socialism is cheaper.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:52
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:
By "reformed" you mean "expanded dramatically" right? UBI or bust
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Oct 13, 2017 17:54
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Nocturtle posted:I don't disagree with your points, the conditions that drive reactionary politics can definitely exist even when there's overall net economic growth. My main observation is that it's very bad news that the west is already flirting with fascism. Material conditions for the large majority of humanity are likely only going to get worse in future due to global economic disruption caused by climate change. That will likely intensify whatever economic or cultural forces that are driving people towards right-wing authoritarianism, and empirically we seem to be pretty far down that path already. Yeah, I didn't mean to sound super against you, just wanted a platform for my rantings  Modern parties have tried to eliminate the fiscal as a viable platform for there to be opposing parties on, and that leaves Party of [social] Progress and and Party of [social] Regress for clear-cut heroes and villains to vote for. But when Progress leads to peoples' lives getting worse, it means they're going to turn to other solutions; the easy "try the other side" one, or systematically unlearning every economic myth both parties have peddled. It's important that we make the latter as available as humanly possible.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:55
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CommieGIR posted:We were discussing the Cold War and the Soviet Union. I fully agree our current defense spending is criminal. Our current defense spending is half of what it was during the cold war relative to GDP. What you see now is just the trace remnants of that period in American history. It's the old cold warrior crew that instituted it. You can't have the biggest arms race in history with only one guy on the track.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:56
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Trabisnikof posted:Peak slavery in the US was 4 million slaves. Gosh, in that case, I'm gonna dump liberalism and buy me a slave! I'm white, hate housework and like being waited on hand and foot. Please direct me to the nearest slave market. (sarcasm, if it needs to be said)
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Oct 13, 2017 17:56
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Volkerball posted:Our current defense spending is half of what it was during the cold war relative to GDP. What you see now is just the trace remnants of that period in American history. It's the old cold warrior crew that instituted it. You can't have the biggest arms race in history with only one guy on the track. And it should still be half that.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:57
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Hahaha, They couldn't have found a more white-hillbilly-southern motherfucker to say this, could they.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:57
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CommieGIR posted:We were discussing the Cold War and the Soviet Union. I fully agree our current defense spending is criminal. Just trying to point out that you (I think) said the Soviet Union fell because they spent way too much of their economy on the military, we are trying to get there ourselves.
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Oct 13, 2017 17:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:UBI or bust
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Oct 13, 2017 18:00
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Trabisnikof posted:Heck, Obama and Trump both used slave labor to help fill out their federal budgets. And Obama refused to free them. That's only partially true: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/18/490498158/justice-department-will-phase-out-its-use-of-private-prisons
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Oct 13, 2017 18:00
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CommieGIR posted:And it should still be half that. Na, I'd take more. I'd turn mass transit into a military program, universal pre-k, tuition free college, every single aspect of pork barrel spending that you want for your home district and state, dump it into the DoD. The military has been trying to cut useless programs for 20 years, Congress won't let them. gently caress it, if we cant cut military spending then at least we can have the military spend some money on things that are useful.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:01
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CommieGIR posted:And it should still be half that. Your argument was that the Soviet Union collapsed because they were a side in an arms race, and if the US had been a side in an arms race, they would have collapsed too. Do you not see the gaping hole in that logic?
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Oct 13, 2017 18:01
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karthun posted:Na, I'd take more. I'd turn mass transit into a military program, universal pre-k, tuition free college, every single aspect of pork barrel spending that you want for your home district and state, dump it into the DoD. The military has been trying to cut useless programs for 20 years, Congress won't let them. gently caress it, if we cant cut military spending then at least we can have the military spend some money on things that are useful. A nice path to complete socialism: hire practically everyone into the army, assign them the military duties of pre-k teacher, bus driver, and hospital nurse.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:03
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Old James posted:Just trying to point out that you (I think) said the Soviet Union fell because they spent way too much of their economy on the military, we are trying to get there ourselves. With 3.2% of GDP you think we are going bankrupt? Fuckit man push it to 4% and have the DoD pay for universal pre-k and tuition free college and 3x free meals in pre-k-12 schools. All three are issues that the military has expressed concern about so lets spend the money on it in the once place were its never cut.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:03
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Democrazy posted:That's only partially true: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/18/490498158/justice-department-will-phase-out-its-use-of-private-prisons You can still be forced into labor in a publicly run prison, Federal Prison Industries is wholly owned by the Federal government.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:04
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^^ My point was that the administration was moving in the direction of phasing out at least part of the prison industrial complex, if not grappling with the whole thing.Hieronymous Alloy posted:By "reformed" you mean "expanded dramatically" right? Can I just say how terrible the idea of UBI is for people who are actually able to work? Sustenance without dignity is a life hardly worth living, and handing people money while implicitly denying them the right to a decent job with decent pay is not anything I, as a member of organized labor, want to be a part of. Democrazy fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 18:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:By "reformed" you mean "expanded dramatically" right?
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Oct 13, 2017 18:05
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BarbarianElephant posted:A nice path to complete socialism: hire practically everyone into the army, assign them the military duties of pre-k teacher, bus driver, and hospital nurse. The Mercy class hospital ships are rather out of date. Lets replace them with 10 new ones. They will go from port to port around the world were needed and hopefully spread less STD's then the rest of the Navy.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:06
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Volkerball posted:Your argument was that the Soviet Union collapsed because they were a side in an arms race, and if the US had been a side in an arms race, they would have collapsed too. Do you not see the gaping hole in that logic? The portion of the GDP that the Soviets spent on their manufacture of arms was indirectly responsible for their collapse. Yes. Where's the hole again?
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Oct 13, 2017 18:06
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RuanGacho posted:I need more of you in government jobs and the rest of you acting in elected public leadership, it is going to take both to save the world. This actually hits on one thing about the Justice system that worries me. How many liberal folks, who are conscious of the abuses of police power and racial discrimination in America are drawn to law enforcement? Not that many, I'd imagine. But conservative, ball busting, power hungry racists, who get to poo poo on people they despise? That's a dream job. I'm not saying that's the majority by any stretch, but in general, that's what I'm worried about. Sure, most cops might be average assholes going about their lives (a problem in their own right), but it only takes a few of those far right loons who are drawn to it like flies to make it worse as years go by.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:06
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karthun posted:And how much discretionary spending should there be on health care?
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Oct 13, 2017 18:13
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CommieGIR posted:The portion of the GDP that the Soviets spent on their manufacture of arms was indirectly responsible for their collapse. Yes. Oh now it's ~indirectly~ responsible. The hole is behind the goalposts you just moved. If you look inside, I think you'll find all the reasons communism sucks and capitalism rules.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:18
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Talmonis posted:This actually hits on one thing about the Justice system that worries me. How many liberal folks, who are conscious of the abuses of police power and racial discrimination in America are drawn to law enforcement? Not that many, I'd imagine. But conservative, ball busting, power hungry racists, who get to poo poo on people they despise? That's a dream job. If we control local governments we can make police accountable and have higher hiring standards. Unfortunately the choices are roughly society or anarchy so we need to embrace competence and justice as fundamental responsibilities for us to advocate for and maintain in our lives.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:20
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Kilroy posted:At least $598.5 billion, from a quick glance at the chart. Wrong, the answer is zero. health care should be mandatory spending not discretionary. The worst thing we could ever do is pass a UHC bill funded out of discretionary spending. CHIP for example was funded out of discretionary and what do you know, the fiscal year ended and now we are going to deny 9 million children and pregnant women off health care because congress forgot to markup the bill.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:21
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Talmonis posted:This actually hits on one thing about the Justice system that worries me. How many liberal folks, who are conscious of the abuses of police power and racial discrimination in America are drawn to law enforcement? Not that many, I'd imagine. But conservative, ball busting, power hungry racists, who get to poo poo on people they despise? That's a dream job. Yeah, this is a feedback loop that means certain areas and professions get either very liberal or very conservative. Especially since working class minorities who might be attracted to the police as a career, will be feeling that they will get nothing but jocular racial abuse from their "brothers" all day long (and no recommendations for promotion) if they choose police as a career.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:22
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Democrazy posted:^^ My point was that the administration was moving in the direction of phasing out at least part of the prison industrial complex, if not grappling with the whole thing. The way I see it, work isn't dignity, it's just work. What we find when we expand public benefits is that the arts flourish as people turn to hobbies and self expression; for example, the "British Invasion" in rock music happened largely because so many young British men had access to public benefits, so they could mess about in rock bands instead of working in the coal mines or whatever. There's nothing dignified about working in a coal seam when you could be the next John Lennon. see generally http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 13, 2017 |
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Oct 13, 2017 18:32
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karthun posted:Wrong, the answer is zero. health care should be mandatory spending not discretionary. The worst thing we could ever do is pass a UHC bill funded out of discretionary spending. CHIP for example was funded out of discretionary and what do you know, the fiscal year ended and now we are going to deny 9 million children and pregnant women off health care because congress forgot to markup the bill.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:33
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The long forgotten dignity of making the world a better place instead of enriching a capitalist blood sucker.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:37
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Kilroy posted:Fine. The $598.5 billion should be divided among the 45 million poorest Americans, in the form of a no-strings-attached check. I like the idea of throwing ubi under the DoD too. But 598.5 billion isn't enough. We need to have the money for mass transit, Pre-K, 3x universal meals in Pre-K - 12, and free college tuition. And 10x Mercy class replacements.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:00
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Should I be worried I still havent gotten my Obamacare renewal letter?
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Oct 13, 2017 19:05
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PhazonLink posted:Should I be worried I still havent gotten my Obamacare renewal letter? I haven't either.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:08
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PhazonLink posted:Should I be worried I still havent gotten my Obamacare renewal letter? Probably, that would terrify me right now.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:17
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Koalas March posted:Thank you and I totally agree with this! A start might be to stop removing the right to vote from incarcerated people and allowing them to register to vote like we do college students living away from home or members of the armed forces who are stationed elsewhere. Also stop counting prison populations as part of where the prison is located's population in censuses if they aren't allowed to vote. And no more using prisoners for free labor. If you're going to employ them they have to be paid a living wage. Basically, we need to remove the incentive to disproportionately convict African-Americans of crimes in order to dilute their voting power/ability while still being able to profit from their presence in prison.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:21
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Oracle posted:A start might be to stop removing the right to vote from incarcerated people and allowing them to register to vote like we do college students living away from home or members of the armed forces who are stationed elsewhere. Also stop counting prison populations as part of where the prison is located's population in censuses if they aren't allowed to vote. And no more using prisoners for free labor. If you're going to employ them they have to be paid a living wage. You are absolutely right. It's the only just thing to do. The problem is that even liberal politicians couldn't support this because it would make them so vulnerable to "weak on crime" attacks.
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Oct 13, 2017 19:24
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PhazonLink posted:Should I be worried I still havent gotten my Obamacare renewal letter? You should definitely worry about your paperwork and how you are going to pay your premium next year. Your letter won't come for another few weeks. Open season starts in mid-November this year. Oh, and it will be shut down Sunday nights. "For maintenance."
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Oct 13, 2017 19:25
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Liberal politicians trying to be "strong on crime" or otherwise trying to out-bastard the GOP has literally never stopped the right wing attacks, or even led to anything positive that I can think of, so maybe they should stop that and run on actual good policies instead?
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Oct 13, 2017 19:27
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