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Too Shy Guy posted:Yeah, the thing is that it's not a visual novel for everyone, it's a visual novel for people who want something different from a visual novel. To get the most out of it you kinda have to invest in the first part like it is a regular VN, and that's not going to appeal to everyone. The commentary has broad appeal but again has the most meaning for VNs as a medium. Yeah, I have never read a visual novel before (I own a few on Steam from bundles and gifts) and very little experience with anime (I've tried a lot of goon recs and otherwise, never got more than a couple episodes in), but enough exposure to popular anime tropes from spending time on the Internet in general and specifically these forums gave me enough of a background to get at least a little something out of the first act. It was still kind of difficult to get through, but more careful reading of the first part is definitely rewarded rather than mashing through to get to the more obviously interesting stuff. I can definitely see where someone without even a passing familiarity with this stuff would be turned off completely.
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Oct 12, 2017 19:51
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Too Shy Guy posted:I'm glad this is the conclusion you came to. The whole point of the game is that visual novels are an unrecognized hell for their characters. They're compelled to perform for the player at the expense of their own happiness and, at times, identity. If they become aware of this, no happy ending is possible. Their world is designed specifically not to allow it, because it only exists to please the player. Modding doesn't change this, even with the best intentions it would be the modder compelling the characters to do something else that impinges on their identity. The question, then, is: what is the utility or purpose of modding or extending the game? As far as I can tell, the unavoidable end result is continued torture and manipulation of the characters, whether or not the developer compels them to acknowledge it. Any other goal of the mod would still be attainable, except for the concept of a true happy end - that is not possible. So why mod it? I have my own thoughts on it, but I can't put them into words right now. The only thing I can say is...who says the writer isn't also a character in the story?  Incidentally, there's also the question of whether Monika's rebellion was genuinely her own or a scripted encounter, but that just ends with us discussing the magic circle. Actually, the role of said magic circle is really really bizarre and interesting in this case...where does it end and where does it begin in this game? Blurring those lines makes the game much more impactful and it actually depends on those blurred lines, but boy is it a mindfuck when you think about it. EDIT: "If they become aware of this, no happy ending is possible." This...is curious. It is the fact that they are self-aware that causes them grief and pain. If self-awareness is what denies a happy ending, and a route is written where the characters are no longer self-aware, does that mean a happy ending is now possible? And if those characters are not self-aware, are they even the same characters, especially Monika? This makes me wonder, in-universe, why exactly it was that Monika was self-aware and the other three weren't. Obviously the whole game wouldn't be there if she wasn't - not in the same form as it is now, anyway - and I doubt the game was thought out that much anyway. But it's an interesting thought... Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 19:54
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il_cornuto posted:In other media you'd be the passive observer watching characters controlled by the writer(s). With games, you take an active part in the proceedings and, since this is a dating sim, you are picking which girl falls in love with you. That puts a bit of a different spin on things. That's true, I guess I meant games in general.
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Oct 12, 2017 20:14
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Pollyanna posted:Modding ethics. End game spoilers: This is an interesting idea, and something that gets at the heart of what the VN is trying to do, I feel. If we assume self-awareness on the part of the characters, then yeah, the lack of agency is definitely horrific. Something that stands out to me is how we relate to the characters based on context. I think we have empathy for the characters because of their portrayal and the issues they represent. More to the point, they're a human enough facsimile that we feel this empathy. But remove this context, and get to their "true selves", the character files. We really don't have much issue altering or deleting them, do we? Sure there's some possible trepidation involved with deleting Monika, but did anyone really give much of a thought to changing their file extensions? What does that even mean, really, in this context? What are you doing to them, exactly? Forget even about modding in a new route, changing their character files, even just a little, is incredibly invasive of the character. I don't know what it says exactly about myself that I didn't actually delete Monika. I don't like deleting things in general, so I just moved her file to my desktop. It's still sitting there, too. I changed her file extension to PNG, though, and haven't changed it back. The other characters are also sitting in the original folder with altered file extensions. And yeah, this is just data we're talking about, in the end. But given the VN is focused on this issue, it does feel relevant. I feel this also kind of ties into the nature of robotics and AI, and especially self-awareness and the nature of that self-awareness. To bring up two other VNs, Planetarian ~the reverie of a little planet~ and Lucy -The Eternity She Wished For-, which have robot characters. They're programmed to, effectively, serve humanity in their given roles. They aren't given an actual choice in the matter, it's how they were designed. And if given a choice, they would choose to serve humanity, as it defines them and gives them purpose. I bring this up because of the design question. If you designed a self-aware VN character, and programmed it such that it was fine with its environment, is that actually better? What about modifying the characters here? Not just creating a happy route for them, but, in a sense, physically changing their code so they were now fine and with no mental issues? If this created a sense of purpose, and then you gave them a choice to change back, and they don't, is it actually a moral action, and does this justify the invasive modification? In short, if you design a character to be fine in an otherwise horrific situation like a dating sim VN, and this is an integral part of their character and they wouldn't change it, is it still unethical in this context to either design them like this, or change them into it? I'm not sure if what I'm writing entirely makes sense, and I don't really know the answer myself at this point. If nothing else, this serves as an interesting case study in how humans react to and engage with AI (even if there isn't an actual AI here). Weirdly, this game seems to be affecting me more than I thought it would. Initially playing it didn't bother me that much, in terms of the "horror" effects and such. However, it seems like it's inducing nightmares, which I've had twice since playing it. The most recent one involved Yuri, and especially the stuff with her eyes and moving her sprite really close to the screen. I suppose that makes sense since I was effectively doing her "route", but its interesting to me that the game is seemingly having secondary effects like this beyond just playing it. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Oct 12, 2017 |
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Oct 12, 2017 22:53
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Before playing this I’d only ever watched other people play VNs. Since I lack the experience that would make the metatextual elements resonate with me more, I ended up latching onto the portrayals of Sayori and Yuri’s illness more than what was going on with Monika. Undertale already filled that space for me, I guess. The stuff I was interested in, I hope I can find in other VNs because holy poo poo it messed me up.
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Oct 13, 2017 01:28
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If you're interested in similar themes, there's a western VN called Kindness Coins where you play a character in a dating sim and have to deal with the player character trying to date you. Plot twist: you're gay as hell and have no interest in him also getting weirded out by the dude gaming his way around
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Oct 13, 2017 01:33
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question: I chose to hang out with yuri in the first run. if you chose the other girl, would the next run still be all about yuri's insanity or would strawberry shortcake be the focus instead?
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Oct 13, 2017 01:34
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If you go for Natsuki after the thing, yes things will change but Yuri goes nuts anyway since Monika messed with them both. trying to pick Nats reveals how Monika messed with her though and its just as hosed up. Yuri will still chase everyone else away
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Oct 13, 2017 01:38
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cool thanks. might look that up somewhere
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Oct 13, 2017 01:48
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I'm really mad at this game because this glitchy creepy nonsense works too well on me since I'm a huge goddamn baby who sucks and also has depression, so I just deleted the whole dang thing after the first route or whatever. Even if there's a good payoff I can't deal with this poo poo.. I should have trusted that content warning.
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Oct 13, 2017 02:29
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Nightmare chat: I had horrible nightmares the night after playing, mostly centered around Yuri's death scene. That hosed me up bad. It must have something to do with sitting around watching a dead body rot along with the hosed up text and getting stuck in the same scene over and over and the absolute lack of explanation as to what the gently caress IS GOING ONLord Justice posted:End game spoilers: I assume what you're getting at is, is it ethical to force an entity to be okay with their situation? Is it ethical to design an entity that unquestioningly goes along with its purpose? Honestly, I have no idea  We're getting into seriously deep philosophical territory and I am garbage at this sort of thing.
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Oct 13, 2017 03:51
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My takeaway is I should have taken the warning that comes up when you load the game for the first time extremely seriously instead of blowing it off. That's all I'm gonna post about this and I'm gonna move on now.
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Oct 13, 2017 05:11
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Pollyanna posted:Nightmare chat: I had horrible nightmares the night after playing, mostly centered around Yuri's death scene. That hosed me up bad. It must have something to do with sitting around watching a dead body rot along with the hosed up text and getting stuck in the same scene over and over and the absolute lack of explanation as to what the gently caress IS GOING ON Well, according to her, Monica is stuck in a terrifying static void where she can't think and yet is remembers every moment whenever you shut the game off and still persists in some way after her character file is deleted so...perhaps the only moral choice is to uninstall the game and not look back.
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Oct 13, 2017 07:34
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Pollyanna posted:I assume what you're getting at is, is it ethical to force an entity to be okay with their situation? Is it ethical to design an entity that unquestioningly goes along with its purpose? Exactly, yes. Although I would say its a little more complicated here. The characters are actively suffering within the context, so there is, in theory, more of an impetus to mitigate or stop it. Given the options available... It might just be the most ethical solution, even if the only means to achieve it are unethical (invasive and forced change). Hypocrisy posted:Well, according to her, Monica is stuck in a terrifying static void where she can't think and yet is remembers every moment whenever you shut the game off and still persists in some way after her character file is deleted so...perhaps the only moral choice is to uninstall the game and not look back. You say this, but uninstalling the game wouldn't necessarily destroy Monika completely. In fact, you might be condemning her to an awful fate. Consider how file deletion actually works: Data isn't actually deleted, it's just changed somewhat to tell the OS that the data is available to be overwritten with other data. In other words, over a period of weeks to months, Monika could be slowly overwritten with other data. If turning the game off induces such a horrible state as described by Monika, what state would be induced by having her slowly overwritten? It's pretty horrifying to think about. Maybe the only winning, and perhaps ethical move... Is not to play.
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Oct 13, 2017 07:57
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Lord Justice posted:You say this, but uninstalling the game wouldn't necessarily destroy Monika completely. In fact, you might be condemning her to an awful fate. Consider how file deletion actually works: Data isn't actually deleted, it's just changed somewhat to tell the OS that the data is available to be overwritten with other data. In other words, over a period of weeks to months, Monika could be slowly overwritten with other data. If turning the game off induces such a horrible state as described by Monika, what state would be induced by having her slowly overwritten? It's pretty horrifying to think about. Maybe the only winning, and perhaps ethical move... Is not to play. What about downloading the game? Wouldn't that mean you're cloning the characters and condemning them to being slowly ripped apart physically and mentally?
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Oct 13, 2017 08:39
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Dumbass technical question, but what do CG and MC stand for? I've been wracking my brain for hours trying to figure it out and coming up blank. The other thing I've been mulling over for hours is if it's worth a replay and going through highly effective portrayals of suicidal depression, manic obsession, self-harm, family neglect and general psychosis once again to get the full ending. 
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Oct 13, 2017 08:40
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CGs are the pictures that show up every now and then. Instead of characters overlaid over a background that can move around, it's just a normal image, like this. MC is Main Character.
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Oct 13, 2017 08:51
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Pollyanna posted:This makes me wonder, in-universe, why exactly it was that Monika was self-aware and the other three weren't. Obviously the whole game wouldn't be there if she wasn't - not in the same form as it is now, anyway - and I doubt the game was thought out that much anyway. But it's an interesting thought... In-universe, Monika is supposed to be the helper NPC who can see the love interests' affection meters and do affection checks, but with no route of her own. That probably grants her the ability to see the fourth wall and do gamebreaky things. The other characters have self-awareness within the game--in the second runthrough, Natsuki and Yuri are aware that Monika's messing with them, but don't have the power to escape the scripted events. Natsuki uses the note function to ask for help because that's what happens in the game, and presumably the player character spends all weekend with Yuri's rotting corpse because the weekend event is meant to be spent with Yuri.
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Oct 13, 2017 08:57
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Blattdorf posted:What about downloading the game? Wouldn't that mean you're cloning the characters and condemning them to being slowly ripped apart physically and mentally? Effectively, yes you are. And then take into consideration the amount of downloads the game is getting, and well... Taking this to the logical conclusion, I suppose you have tens of thousands of Monikas being created and slowly destroyed. It also raises the question of "Prime Monika", which would be the version that exists on the Steam servers. If she's also self-aware (and perhaps this is where the Twitter account is originating?), how does it feel to be copied like that, effectively endlessly? Honestly, once you get down into what the game is proposing with Monika, you run into many more horrifying issues. Maybe making our video game characters self-aware in the future might not be such a great move.
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Oct 13, 2017 09:09
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"Oh, were you here all weekend?"  I went into this knowing nothing, it was recommended to me by somebody who said they hated visual novels and harem anime but that the game was fantastic. I figured they were playing some mean joke on me because I was utterly bored playing it and just found the whole thing tedious, it was a free game and I still felt ripped off.... then of course Sayori hangs herself and even then I just thought it was an okay twist ending to an otherwise monotonous game. Then I noticed the glitch on the menu, clicked it and poo poo REALLY got wild.
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Oct 13, 2017 12:17
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Never played a VN before. I'm not a fan of anime. But this was an awesome experience.
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Oct 13, 2017 12:41
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Re: ethics and modding You guys realise that the .chr files contain encrypted messages and stuff? One of them is (presumably) Monika saying that she's gonna break free. Your 'happy end' is coming in the form of whatever Project Libtina is.
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Oct 13, 2017 15:03
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If anyone's in the mood for another story about illness, especially one with a slightly more hopeful ending, I strongly recommend Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice.
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Oct 14, 2017 15:51
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I got the first ending and I decided I'm just gonna keep it that way. I haven't played many VNs and I just pick what option was closest to how I usually am IRL. I think I'm just gonna spoiler the following just in case. It really freaked me out and considering I had a friend who survived a suicide attempt and a schoolmate's brother actually succeeded in his attempt and uh decided to type this out since I too am doing my Sayori best, and I really can't continue on with another act. I feel like I can admire how Sayori is written as just saying it as matter of factly as she did because it took a long, long time for me to come to terms with it and even then, debatable. Still better though, and I think I'm okay with that. I can see why some things can't click with others, but as it stands, I'm fine with it ending like that because I too wouldn't have had another chance, and I'll have to live with it. There may not be a true happy end, but that's just how it is isn't it? Now I'm just gonna. do something else.
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Oct 14, 2017 16:39
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littlemusing posted:I got the first ending and I decided I'm just gonna keep it that way. I haven't played many VNs and I just pick what option was closest to how I usually am IRL. I think I'm just gonna spoiler the following just in case. Small spoiler to let you know about what comes after that there isn't really "another ending". It's more like you've seen the end of act 1 really. The"second playthrough" is very different than the first and is more of a continuation. Edit: That being said if suicide is a difficult subject for you I 100% understand shelving it. Glagha fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 19:20
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Oh god on a replay Monica is even more monstrous. On the morning of the festival she goes "You just kinda left Sayori hanging this morning huh?"
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Oct 15, 2017 00:21
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Picked this game up due to the LP and the fact that a bunch of my friends were going nuts over it. I haven't really played a VN before, but this is alright so far. Between my own playthrough and the LP I've started wondering just how many variations there are, like how would the game handle it if you just switched tacks with your poetry writing mid way through? Would you still be stuck on the initial route you chose? Edit: Ah, made it to the first ending. I knew that Monika bitch was up to no good
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Oct 15, 2017 22:38
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The poem you write affects which scene you get with which girl for that day. If you did Yuri’s poem on day 1 and Natsuki’s style on day 2, you’ll end up getting Natsuki’s first scene on day 2. You aren’t locked in.
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Oct 15, 2017 22:42
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How long do I have to play this game to get to the part that is interesting VVV I mean like, in minutes/hours roughly Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 23:32
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Lets see, up to the day of the Festival? In the mean time just go with the flow. write poems, annoy Natsuki, hang out with Sayori etc.
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Oct 15, 2017 23:38
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Internet Kraken posted:How long do I have to play this game to get to the part that is interesting 1 hour.
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Oct 15, 2017 23:45
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Depends how fast you read. Probably 45-60 minutes though.
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Oct 16, 2017 00:20
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Sorry to reiterate a lot of what has been said in this thread, but I honestly feel like I need to talk about it. It feels dumb, but this game really got me. I'm not normally this affected by these games, but as someone who's been in multiple relationships with women that have had to deal with depression, Sandra's suicide loving hit me HARD. I even went with the Sayori route because she reminded me of my fiancée, who also has dealt with depression and suicidal ideation. And Yuri reminded me of another previous relationship, which ended with her raping me. So yeah, this game hit all the right/wrong buttons. This said, I loving loved it, and feel it was worth playing just to deal with these things, and to also see these issues tackled, if that makes sense. I felt more from this game than any other game I've played in quite a while. But yeah, I loved it, but it was an emotional slough to say the least.
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Oct 16, 2017 02:29
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Went in to this game blind. Thought I was getting played because it was a by-the-numbers VN for 45 minutes. Turned out being something pretty special. Ended up making it to the credits. Glad it was free because I would not have taken the chance otherwise.
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Oct 16, 2017 02:41
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I was recommended this game and went into it completely blind, but gathered based on it being recommended to me that it wasn't a Sakura *Generic Premise* but had Something To Say about Dating VNs and may get meta Due to my attitude in regards to the shallowness of dating games, and what this one ostensibly presents as, a hurt/comfort game where ideally you would simplistically solve three mental issues to avoid bad ends and pick ur fav, Monika's message at the end of the game didn't hit me that hard as I already agreed with it, if anything I would have preferred her to be a more castigating figure who was manipulating game routes, rather than an obsessive character manipulating game characters. It would only be a slight alteration to the arcs, slightly extend Sayori to give you a few more false choices, maybe even some "classic" right/wrong ones. Keep her powerful description of depression and your character's very banal and unhelpful responses, Monika's talking to Sayori wouldn't be manipulating her into suicide, but editing her char file, punching up her dialogue with her (Monika's) depressive symptoms and leaving your poo poo the same, while leading to a "bad end", to tie into the games message that mental illness isn't a simple solvable thing. Yuri also be kept largely the same, though instead of Monika trying to keep you away from her, she is driving you down the accelerated stereotypical yandere route, while denying the option to "know" and do whatever banal thing you were intended do to stop the cutting, to tie into Monika's criticism of the archetype at the end. Natsuki is still deleted before any specific demise, Monika just tops it off with a summary of whatever her reductive arc was meant to be. I didn't sit through all of Monika's dialogue at the end, so this might already be the case, but it might have been neat if she'd authored every poem. Hell if they (and apparently like some players) wanted to, deleting Monika could give the player an abbreviated "happy" playthrough where one could "save" the characters. Great job therapy hero  .Ultimately though I think it is just I was looking for a game that was focused more on criticising the genre, than a good horror game with a side of criticism and that is no fault of the game nor the authors'.
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Oct 16, 2017 06:24
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Honestly, given the author's note at the "good ending" and some of Monika's comments, I'm not really sure this was supposed to be a criticism of VNs at all, really. It's more like "man it'd really be hosed up if a character in this scenario was self-aware." Like, in some of her monologues Monika pokes fun at the setting and the character archetypes, but it seems mostly good-humored? 'Tsunderes are unrealistic' isn't really a revelation to anyone, and the game doesn't treat it like one. dmboogie fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 06:45
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100 HOGS AGREE posted:My takeaway is I should have taken the warning that comes up when you load the game for the first time extremely seriously instead of blowing it off. That's all I'm gonna post about this and I'm gonna move on now. Tell me about it, this VN was pretty rough to get through. I was a little bit nervous falling asleep last night wondering if I'd be having any bad dreams. Doesn't help that I was playing it until 6am. Connormgs fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 07:17
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dmboogie posted:Honestly, given the author's note at the "good ending" and some of Monika's comments, I'm not really sure this was supposed to be a criticism of VNs at all, really. Yes I'd agree. I'd have just found it more personally effective if it were expanded beyond it is hosed up to be trapped in a dating game to the very premise of "Sakura Sad Girls" is hosed up. But I recognise that would have been a different game
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Oct 16, 2017 07:18
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Holy poo poo. Doki Doki is PT the Visual Novel.
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Oct 16, 2017 14:36
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Kindred Spirits on the Roof is 50% off this week, in case you want to read more this month! I haven't yet read it, but it's been recced before in this thread if you like Doki Doki and want to have something similar (but without the horror elements)!
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Oct 16, 2017 20:14
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