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Mirage-2000s are by far the most balanced A2A option. Great missiles, great quantity.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:00
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Davin Valkri posted:The thing is (a) they're cost limited, not quantity limited, and (b) we've actually asked Dimitris to look into a db upgrade to let Gripens use AMRAAM Cs. And my objection to using the F-14Es is that there just aren't ENOUGH of them! The cost limit is pretty killer after a few missions, though. As for B, is that one of those things that only came up on the discord that the rest of us never find out about? There only being four isn’t great, yeah, but they are disgustingly good. The F-16s are only 120As and the Hornets have loving Sparrows, please no. Just throw in some BISONs to round it out with BVR capabilities and the swinger party is the best party.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:02
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 Bote and Rus Lobbies, grab your heart meds We're in the loving Twilight Zone, folks. I've got my quick takes from looking at the offers and gently caress my balls they're some doozies. From K&P, Mirages and Invisibote. There's the potential that Gripens are going to get AMRAAM-Cs in the DB, and that would change the core to Gripens. Reason: Mirages might be least hit by the BVR tax, and the Kais and Etendards aren't well enough equipped for my tastes (seriously, Sparrow loving IIIs?) From BFLM, Tomcats and 'MURICA. Reason: AMRAAM-Cs, plain and simple. We need Air Superiority and these are the only two with even remotely adequate BVR armament. Seriously, 1991's finest goddamn Sparrow motherfucking IIIs? ANOTHER WEAK HEART WARNINGFrom Ivanov, Core + Lenin. The world isn't so far off its axis that I'm going to support buying a bunch of loving whirly-birds. So there you have it, I'm suggesting either a loving boat or a shitload of RusTrash. Should have saved the day drinking for today, gently caress. gently caress.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:03
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So, people who know more about this stuff than me, how attractive is the bote? Because a stealthy intel bote could be really useful but I don't know this sort of thing.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:10
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Purchase Initiative: Civil Riot 7x Gripens. Don't give a gently caress about that meteor cost, AESA radars are the poo poo and we need some. 1x Bote. It's a bote. Pleases bote lobby. Maybe we can bolt some SAM's and other fun poo poo to it. (pretty please yooper) 4x F-117C. Very nice for bombing poo poo that's defended. These are fun to play with in cmano. Which is about everything in the kitty. Now, we aren't meant to be picking 3D print options until in theatre, but I would then hint very, very heavily that we then buy- 1x Mig-27 tooling Mig 27 they can bomb stuff with old and cheap but still reasonable precision stand-off range weapons and defend themselves to an extent, while not being quite so outdated as some offerings, and we can replace them in theatre or increase the fleet as required. DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 19:15
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Bote lobby would like to officially endorse the purchase of K&P's Gripens + Invisiboat package. We would also humbly request that we also purchase some 3d printed A-7 Corsair II's to fill our A2G gaps.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:23
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I'm going to put forward the Razgriz Purchasing Plan: 4 F-14E Quickstrikes because they're not only fantastic Air-to-Air planes (which the last op showed we desperately need) but we can paint them up in Razgriz livery. I'm not saying we should...oh who am I kidding yes I am. 'Murica Package (Warthogs, Intruders, Nighthawks) because if we get this we are rock solid with Air-to-Ground. We've got the nigh unkillable Warthogs and the stealthy as hell F-117s. The Intruders are just an added bonus, though their ECM makes them quite valuable on their own. We could stand to have more jammers in the air for our ops.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:25
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Remember guys, Mirage-2000s have better A2A options than all the other US options. MICAs are better than the old AIM-120Cs on the F-14 and WAY better than the sparrows and AIM-120As on the F-16s and F-18s. It's not really a choice.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:30
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Dr. Snark posted:nigh unkillable Warthogs Doc you’re cool and all but no, they are only nigh-unkillable vs 23mm autocannon fire. A pair of Iglas can easily take one down, let alone a modern BVR missile, and with a 300kt max speed they have zero ability to disengage. They can be outrun by many WW2 piston fighters. It just means the enemy has to spend two missiles on them but they can’t dodge for poo poo so it’s not like they’re going to even have to wait and see if the missiles hit. Reminder that the US estimated that in a Fulda Gap scenario 100% of the fleet would be destroyed in a week, and that was with 1980s missiles hunting them. I fuckin love warthogs but this is not the time or place for them, and unless we enter a time portal to 1975 it may never be.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:31
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power crystals posted:I fuckin love warthogs but this is not the time or place for them, and unless we enter a time portal to 1975 it may never be. Please god, comedy option right here.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:33
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Get lots of planes, like the Ching Kuo / Kai combo, make pilots run shifts on them. Run one mission and you're on leave for the next. That'll clear the waiting list (can't tell how long it is from the googledoc!), and the 3d printer parts can explain away the wear and tear that was putting aircraft on limited availability previously. Big Name Munitions costs hopefully balancing Gripen Supremacy cases. Gives us the numbers to throw at anything and several missions before we have to worry about sending odd ducks to the circus. Efficiency is second seat until supply chains figure out the new market dynamics. The Dramatic Pilot Turnover rate will also satisfy the folks at HoBO who want to do a gritty TV-documentary series with lots of explosions but no special effects budget. Add 2%-10%(or maybe tier it by age a little, like <1980 is almost free) of purchase cost as nominal mission cost and suddenly a) more incentive for cheap stuff and b) going all-in on every mission isn't possible. Might be too much paperwork in addition to the pilot rotas and munitions costs - but maybe make it so the mission planners have to include the total as a sort of "we've contracted in Black Gold Logistics this time - they've quoted $Xm for the supplies for this flight plan" thing to keep the work off of Yooper. If we get audited and it turns out the numbers were against us... that just means we have to work it off for our unintentional creditors. Team Boat needs a dinghy so Grey can have tea with the Dutch on a regular basis. Half expected a sandbar guzzling conversion job with service contract ('this is the only man who still knows how to fix this rustbucket, and he's on our payroll not yours') in exchange for ambiguous future favours as a possible reward from the Navy, but maybe start speccing up a q-ship freighter for around the world supply jaunts that doesn't necessarily need an actual in-game profile and avoids problems with landlocked regions like Tibet that an actual military vessel would invoke?
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Oct 16, 2017 19:37
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Nthing the K&P Gripens + Invisiboat option. Mirages are cool too. (We can 3D-print ten or so MiG-21 BISONS for fun and profit later.  )
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Oct 16, 2017 19:39
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Dr. Snark posted:I'm going to put forward the Razgriz Purchasing Plan: Maybe we can compromise on the Core package and combine our votes instead of splitting it? power crystals posted:I fuckin love warthogs but this is not the time or place for them, and unless we enter a time portal to 1975 it may never be. Didn't Yooper say that future operational environments will lower tech though? Besides, the lower max speed is a feature, not a bug. It runs turbofans to improve its TOT performance; its not meant to go fast. Also, evading at 50ft AGL with flares?
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Oct 16, 2017 19:40
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power crystals posted:Doc you’re cool and all but no, they are only nigh-unkillable vs 23mm autocannon fire. A pair of Iglas can easily take one down, let alone a modern BVR missile, and with a 300kt max speed they have zero ability to disengage. They can be outrun by many WW2 piston fighters. It just means the enemy has to spend two missiles on them but they can’t dodge for poo poo so it’s not like they’re going to even have to wait and see if the missiles hit. Reminder that the US estimated that in a Fulda Gap scenario 100% of the fleet would be destroyed in a week, and that was with 1980s missiles hunting them. Fair, but the Su-25s had that same "problem" and we were still able to launch some devastating attacks with them and only lost the one due to AI idiocy. I'll concede that they aren't as unkillable as make them out to be, but they're still death from above in the best way. Plus Avenger cannons dude. Avenger cannons. CourValant posted:Maybe we can compromise on the Core package and combine our votes instead of splitting it? *sucks in air through teeth* drat dude, I get where you're coming from, but I really want those F-14s. We lost basically our entire A2A wing to get a crack at them and dammit all they are Maximum Ace Combat.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:40
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My own take on each package offered K&P Core Man, there's a lot to like at first glance about this package. The Gripen NG is a very capable platform, provided we can feed it Meteors and SDBs. But therein lies the rub. Without those weapons, they quickly become average bomb droppers. The Mirages are more likely to be the core of the future fighter force, which they'd ought to be... okay at. MICA EMs and IRs for A2A may well be enough and shouldn't fall under the tax. The Ching Kuos are chaff, with really lacklustre BVR options and only an average ASM for guided air to surface munitions. The tax on high tech weapons is something to consider with this package, though. Invisi-boat This raises so many questions. The F-117s offered are copies of the F-117A, but with British weapons instead of Yank ones and, for some reason, they get ALARMs? Okay. The bote is only a floating ELINT platform, and with horizon issues could well prove to be a pain in the rear end. No defensive capabilities either, a couple lads on a speedboat could take it down. If there's a target that absolutely needs a Paveway to the face and you want to ignore ADA until you open the bomb bay, this is the package for you. Super-Kai Garbage all the way down. The Phantoms are nowhere near the quality of the ones we lost, and the Etendards only get a really poor ASM or one Paveway if you want it to designate a target itself. Do we want to get into the world of buddy lasing? If so, this is your option package. Ivanov Core A surprisingly decent option, especially considering that we lost our A2A capability last time out. They include the gimmick of BVR IR missiles but we've also got to deal with the wonders of SARH and all of its bullshit. If you're worried about our BVR capability, this is probably the package for you. Lenin A second AEW aircraft with the same range radar as on the Erieye and a pair of OECM platforms. The Fishbeds are chaff, don't worry about them. The OECM platforms are worse than those on the Prowler, but there's two of them. If you want more support assets, this is for you. Trotsky Not as bad as K&P Super-Kai, but pretty close. Rotary wing aircraft are incredibly vulnerable to ADA, as was demonstrated with the Fire Scout. The Frogfoot is a returning face, we had some of these for Tibet and Angola. They can carry an obscene amount of ordnance, but not very far. Again, the Fishbeds are chaff, don't worry about them. If you for some reason don't think we've enough mudmovers and want to add more to the pile, this is the package for you. BFLM Core Man, not having those AAAMs really hurts the Tomcats. The version of the AMRAAM-C they carry only has a 40nm range, really disappointing to see here. However, the whole package is incredibly flexible. Everything included can do pretty much everything you'd want from them, though the Hornets would make somewhat disappointing A2A machines given they only carry SARH Sparrows. If you want a billion multiroles and want to take a highway to the danger zone, this is the package for you. 'Murica The Core trend of everything doing pretty much everything continues here. Every Intruder loadout carries a pair of AMRAAMs for some reason. God bless the US Navy. This trend continues on to the A/F-117Xs, who also carry AMRAAMs. Finally we've some A-10Cs, which are slower Froggers that we can refuel. If you want to embarrass enemies by having them shot down by attack aircraft, this is the package for you. Aardvark You're paying for the Orion, and the Orion isn't worth $50m, never mind $250m. The Aardvarks are Paveway droppers at best. 3D printed aircraft A whole load of poo poo with one glistening diamond shining in the muck. The Bison carries a pair of Adders for BVR and for precision strike you get a pair of TV-guided bombs. For $7.5m a pop these are an absolute steal.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:46
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Davin Valkri posted:Yooper, just to confirm, I'm seeing our final procurement option as follows: Correct. I'd recommend saving some money for ammo procurement. It's entirely possible for a flight of Gripens to unleash a ridiculous quantity of Meteors on a rabid pack of Cessna. (Cessnii?) But yah, that's the core of it, plane flexibility.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:10
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You make a good point about the Bison, I misread and thought they were Bis. Plan Minimum research will drop the 8x F-5 and Viggens and buy 20 Mig-21 BISON instead. Plan No Research II NG Gripens InvisiBoat 20x MIG-21Bison Total Price: 800,000,000 Roeben fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 20:12
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Regarding the Marajata. Purchasing this moves us into the real of giving us supreme intel gathering and comms traffic monitoring capability compared to anything else out there. Not so much usefull during missions, but get a crew of decryption analysers and this thing will feed them data like nothing else out there on the PMC market. Its sure as hell beats jack.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:14
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CourValant posted:Also, evading at 50ft AGL with flares? Flares don’t do poo poo against modern sensors. I mean, they’ll try, and you might get lucky (as happened IRL recently with that Superhornet in Syria), but the real problem is that the Warthog is too slow to disengage while being shot at so nothing prevents the attacker from just hitting the weapon release button again. Also MANPADS will gently caress your poo poo up at 50ft. Dr. Snark posted:Fair, but the Su-25s had that same "problem" and we were still able to launch some devastating attacks with them and only lost the one due to AI idiocy. Oh don’t get me wrong I really like them for all the reasons you state, I just don’t know that they’d contribute anything. The Su-25s are also significantly faster though Command apparently has the Warthog max speed at 390 which surprises me so the gap isn’t as large as I expected. Of note, the Warthog can be refuelled, which was a huge issue with our Frogfeets. Basically just buy the hogs cause they’re cool, not due to the myth of invulnerability 
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Oct 16, 2017 20:15
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ShowRoom Planning Link Here : https://www.dropbox.com/s/i02o04oi8wc1r11/Hired%20Goons%20New%20Plane%20Showroom%203.scen?dl=0
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Oct 16, 2017 20:25
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The Tornados can still Brimstone everything driving, we don't really need more vintage ground attack. On further consideration I don't like the small numbers on the US core packages. Tending towards the Mirages + boat because even old school stealth is something we haven't seen yet and there's a relatively decent number of those F-117s in the package. I would kinda love the Flankers but they come with so much crap.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:36
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Roeben posted:You make a good point about the Bison, I misread and thought they were Bis. Check your price; I'm seeing 400 + 250 + (7.5 * 20) = 800 million.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:44
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Whoops. No more late night maths for me.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:45
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Honestly, I'd go for BFLM 'Murica, and season with a million Bisons.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:51
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The Viggen is so pretty
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Oct 16, 2017 20:52
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Please NG Grips with [/b]invisboat[/b].
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Oct 16, 2017 20:52
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Oh my lord lots of Eurotrash, and stealth, and a bote? Good god Yooper it's like you made the K&P packages just for me. Mirages will make a really solid core of air superiority fighters that don't have to deal with the high-tech tax and can carry an immense amount of ordnance (remember when Rohan and Silent Bob went full Ace Combat and shot down half an airforce with two Mirages?). Although, is the US package the favor that Halsey owes us? I'd hate to write off the US options if that's the case.
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Oct 16, 2017 20:55
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It's a bote! A weird bote that will probably give you all kinds of exotic cancer but it's a bote! And some really oddball stealth "fighters" as a bonus!
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Oct 16, 2017 20:56
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh my lord lots of Eurotrash, and stealth, and a bote? Good god Yooper it's like you made the K&P packages just for me. Mirages will make a really solid core of air superiority fighters that don't have to deal with the high-tech tax and can carry an immense amount of ordnance (remember when Rohan and Silent Bob went full Ace Combat and shot down half an airforce with two Mirages?). That was with Rafales, not Mirages, I think.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:01
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Oh, yeah, it was I'm dumb. But the Mirage is still a solid fighter. I'd rather take them than the Gripens, because without Meteors the Gripens are honestly kinda poo poo. I wouldn't gamble our procurement on the database maybe at some point in the future giving Grips AMRAAM-C's, I'll take what I know works right now.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:03
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We can (and should) buy the Gripens for supreme A2A capabilities and then print some Bisons/F-16s/flankers/mirages for midrange/budget A2A. This way we retain air superiority and keep costs down.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:05
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Dr. Snark posted:*sucks in air through teeth* drat dude, I get where you're coming from, but I really want those F-14s. We lost basically our entire A2A wing to get a crack at them and dammit all they are Maximum Ace Combat. Understood, and, my concern here is both quantity and quality. If we could, I'd say buy a squadron of them, except only 4 are available. As we have to deal with maintenance rotations, we could very easily find ourselves with only one pair of these as top cover any given mission, just so we'll have coverage on the next Op. Which was why I wanted the 8 F-16's. Split the difference? I can be satisfied with 6 F-18s. Shall I begin thinking up a name for our negotiated procurement package?   power crystals posted:Also MANPADS will gently caress your poo poo up at 50ft. Agreed, just wanted to highlight that the greatest threat to A-10's are MANPADS and low level AAA, as opposed to F-22s or J-20s.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:20
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BROADSTREET Core: 8 - F16CG Option: ‘Murica
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Oct 16, 2017 21:23
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sniper4625 posted:BROADSTREET 
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Oct 16, 2017 21:24
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I'm a loving animal who doesn't care for money or morality, only botes and blood. So consider me banging on the table with my fists demanding invisiboat option no matter what.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:28
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paragon1 posted:I'm a loving animal who doesn't care for money or morality, only botes and blood. You just wanna look in on Putins browsing history don't you :P
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Oct 16, 2017 21:36
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orcbuster posted:You just wanna look in on Putins browsing history don't you :P Do you not?
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Oct 16, 2017 21:38
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power crystals posted:Do you not? Oh I'd look at every head of state history given half a chance. And then proceed to devour it all so I get to feel what it feels like to be the 00000.1% Again, just saying. Marajata and stealth planes = awesome plot hooks.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:41
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i just want my bomber.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:48
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Mycroft Holmes posted:i just want my bomber. We'll get there Buddy, we'll get there. For now, join us in some GAU-8 fun? Its not quite saturation cluster bombing, and, its a step in the right direction?
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Oct 16, 2017 21:55
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