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CourValant posted:We'll get there Buddy, we'll get there. 3D print some Mig-27s instead for even more BRRRRRT than the A-10.
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Oct 16, 2017 21:58
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orcbuster posted:3D print some Mig-27s instead for even more BRRRRRT than the A-10. Deal. We'll buy A-10's and 3D print some MIG-27s for maximum BRRRRRT. That MIG-27 30mm tends to shake the whole airframe apart though.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:06
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Look at this AESA. It spins! If we can use AIM-120s on the Gripen, that 200° of AESA coverage is going to allow us to do some crazy stuff. Voting for 7 Gripen and Invisiboat.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:07
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1) We're not voting yet, 2) the AESA radar on the Gripens didn't do poo poo to pick up the stealth aircraft yesterday, and the proper AWACS will do a better job for spotting everything else. We just had our entire A2A force utterly wiped out, we need numbers. 7 Gripens ain't gonna cut it.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:09
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orcbuster posted:You just wanna look in on Putins browsing history don't you :P I wanna see what the CIA downloads when they think no one is watching.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:09
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I'd suggest one of the eurotrash core packages with No Option if we can print two dozen Bisons. None of the packages have options that are actually worth 250 million dollars. Gripens is good. The lack of a low-end BVR missile is not great but that's what Bisons are for. Seven Gripen NGs for 400 million is an absolute STEAL. Mirages are decent but not superb, but aren't a bad price at 400 mil. We'd lack high capability though. Ivanov Core is probably the best balanced, but being bundled with a bunch of crap to make it 600 million is iffy. None of the Broadstreet packages are worth a drat. F-14s without their best BVR missiles are pretty bad, and only having four AMRAAM-C slingers leaves a pretty big gap. Sparrow III on the F-18 and AMRAAM-A on the F-16 are both iffy, if I had to pick I'd prefer the F-18 though. I guess it depends on what we can print. The MIG-27K and MIG-21 BISON are both decent planes and at 7.5 mil each the bison is a bargain. Crazycryodude posted:1) We're not voting yet, 2) the AESA radar on the Gripens didn't do poo poo to pick up the stealth aircraft yesterday, and the proper AWACS will do a better job for spotting everything else. We just had our entire A2A force utterly wiped out, we need numbers. 7 Gripens ain't gonna cut it. Will 12 Mirages or 6 F-18s do any better than 7 Gripens in A2A? We don't have any *numbers* options, other than printing something like 24 bisons, which we should do anyway if we can.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:11
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Yeah 12 Mirages are literally almost twice as many planes. The Mirages are the best balance between numbers and capabilities, IMO, and while we can also print out a bunch of crap planes to make the numbers nice and big we need a solid core that we can use every mission, not Gripens who will have Meteors for all of two missions and then be garbage the rest of the theater.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:15
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Crazycryodude posted:2) the AESA radar on the Gripens didn't do poo poo to pick up the stealth aircraft yesterday, and the proper AWACS will do a better job for spotting everything else. We just had our entire A2A force utterly wiped out, we need numbers. 7 Gripens ain't gonna cut it. Don't kill me if I'm wrong on this but I don't think out current Gripen C have any AESA. That is part of why we need the latest and best radar we can get, the older generation does not simply cut it if we run into that kind of stealthy opposition again. The AESAs might not do too well either but it will definitely do better than the alternatives.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:18
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Noshtane posted:Don't kill me if I'm wrong on this but I don't think out current Gripen C have any AESA. That is part of why we need the latest and best radar we can get, the older generation does not simply cut it if we run into that kind of stealthy opposition again. The AESAs might not do too well either but it will definitely do better than the alternatives. Package is for GRIPEN E, not C
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Oct 16, 2017 22:21
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Oh. Oh. I've somehow thought we were packing E's this entire time, but that was just an option to upgrade them last round that we passed on  Ok, yeah, I'm suddenly much more receptive to the Gripen deal.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:23
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Crazycryodude posted:1) We're not voting yet, 2) the AESA radar on the Gripens didn't do poo poo to pick up the stealth aircraft yesterday, and the proper AWACS will do a better job for spotting everything else. We just had our entire A2A force utterly wiped out, we need numbers. 7 Gripens ain't gonna cut it. The Gripen C we were running doesn't have AESA radar. It has a plain old pulse-doppler set, apparently. The Gripen E has the best radar of all the available planes, the Tomcat radar has better range but is also old. How does that AESA perform against likely stealth opponents? Or the F-117s we might be getting? I agree we need numbers, but at some point, we are going to need quality too and the Gripens are the best of the available by far, and in decent number too. I'd rather make up the numbers with the 3D-printer birds. Yooper, does it count against the price doubling if we bring meteors but don't fire them? If it doesn't, we can use the Gripens as a mean bigger brother in reserve, ready to go in if the older planes run into something they can't handle. With careful use of weapons release authorization, we can save on the meteors until needed. Like we did way in the beginning. We were shooting mostly IRIS-Ts, IIRC.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:26
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Crazycryodude posted:Yeah 12 Mirages are literally almost twice as many planes. The Mirages are the best balance between numbers and capabilities, IMO, and while we can also print out a bunch of crap planes to make the numbers nice and big we need a solid core that we can use every mission, not Gripens who will have Meteors for all of two missions and then be garbage the rest of the theater. If you go with meteor use, then swap to SDB use (and doubling SDB prices isn't very arduous), we can probably fly gripens for something like 6 missions. The 45nm Mica just doesn't cut it in comparison, even with 12 planes in the air. Since we can supplement our forces with AA-12s which have the same range, is there really a point to it in comparison? I think we'll really regret not having the option of using a good BVR missile if we do need to swat down an air force.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:29
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I'm just saying, if theres fun money left over and you guys want to piss it away on fun toys, consider 3d printing a Lun. Mostly for the comedy option. Cant carry shipwrecks, but 6 sunburns is still quite the punch. Jusssst saying...
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Oct 16, 2017 22:35
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Anta posted:Yooper, does it count against the price doubling if we bring meteors but don't fire them? You can bring them all day long. Each flight can set the Weapon Release Authorization as you guys see fit.  For example I can set it to ONLY use Meteors on a particular type of fighters, say Gen 4 and Gen V.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:38
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That's rather useful. So we could buy the Gripens, fly some or all of them as CAP, but set a rule so they're more as a CAP reserve while we throw crappy planes into furballs.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:41
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Gripen-Es, F-117C Brits and a loving stealth ELINT bote?    Who do I have to kill and/or gently caress to make that happen?
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Oct 16, 2017 22:48
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Yooper, a question: will the prototype F-14s still be available after this procurement round? I can understand everyone else wanting to just put up more bodies, but I'd hate to lose the chance to get the planes that literally half our force died for.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:53
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Okay now that I have a chance to do a longer form response: K&P Gripens: Gripens are sweet. But they are sweet because of the Meteors and SDBs, which now have a hefty tax on them. Getting the devs to allow these to carry 120Cs makes them okay, but not much better (and we shouldn't be relying on that happening anytime soon!). The only real notable thing here is the bonus count due to the Swiss. Mirage: A solid middle-tier multirole. Its only standoff air-to-ground is Storm Shadows, and same problem as the Meteors above. This is the best K&P core. Ching-Kuo: Pretty limited armament choices. Huge numbers, but nothing stands out as good either. Invisiboat: F-117s are neat. Like, really neat. I have no idea what to make of the boat because it is so out of left field compared to what we've been doing that it's hard to rate. This gets team boat a boat, but I don't know what they'd do with it since it has no weapons of any kind. I guess chill and have boat parties every day, which seems like a decent plan, honestly. Super Kai: Sparrows are worthless and the rest of the Phantoms' loadout does not carry this weakness. The Etendards are okay, I guess. Invisiboat is way more attractive than this. Ivanov Core: These Flankers have the neat trick of having BVR missiles with IR terminal seekers. The problem is they have semi-active radar guidance until they get in range of the IR sensor, and semi-active is really bad (if the Flanker has to turn to evade, the missile is trashed). You get a bunch of them at least. Lenin: Oh good, the worst Fishbeds are back. The support aircraft are kinda neat but I don't really know that we need them. Trotsky: Frogfeet are fun, but Hinds are still very fragile. And those Fishbeds are still awful. Broadstreet F-14: Holy poo poo these things are incredible. Mavericks, HARMs, Harpoons, ITALD jammers, Sea Mines, and every bomb in the US' arsenal circa 1995. The 120Cs aren't anything amazing, but they're slightly better than the 120Bs our Greek Phantoms had, and those things ruined many an enemy pilot's day. Only downside is you only get 4. F/A-18: The only BVR option is a Sparrow. No. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. F-16: A solid imitation of the F-14s, but you get three times as many. Of course, the Tomcats are way more badass, and that's what really matters. Also they only have 120As. 'Murica: Well this is the comediest of comedy options. My feelings on Warthogs should be well established. The F-117s continue to be a fun choice. The Intruders are where this totally leaves the rails, as they can carry their own AMRAAMs along with decoys and can even do buddy tanking. A solid choice. Aardvark: The P3 is fun. The F-111s on the other hand are the Platonic ideal of Bomb Truck. 8,000 pounds of dirt removal per aircraft (or 4,000 pounds of bunker buster!). And for Team Warcrimes, they can carry 16 clusterbombs each. They're also surprisingly fast and have good operational range. e: oh yeah, also, an EF-111 is credited with an unarmed air-to-air kill when it caused an Iraqi Mirage to fly itself into a hill. Aardvarks own. I stand by my choice of Tomcats + Aardvarks. The F-14s are incredibly capable even with the AIM-152s missing and the Aardvarks can pound anything into submission. Throw in another $150M on BISONs to round out our BVR capabilities and we can get 20 (!) Fishbeds that aren't incredibly terrible like the Croatian ones. A few of them will probably even be operational on any given mission. Second place, the Murica option is also good despite the A-10s and Mirages + Invisiboat would be fine (despite Mirages being too ugly to live). Ivanov isn't worth it, the Gripens are a bad choice without a "normal" BVR weapon, and the F-18s and Kais round out the list as actual bad choices. power crystals fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 22:54
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Dr. Snark posted:Yooper, a question: will the prototype F-14s still be available after this procurement round? I can understand everyone else wanting to just put up more bodies, but I'd hate to lose the chance to get the planes that literally half our force died for. Sure. Just down the road.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:54
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I can see the point of arguing for the AESA. Taking the Gripens, setting them to CAP with restrictive ROE, and forgetting that they even can carry SDBs at all, doing all ground work with our more vintage stuff might be workable financially. Maybe the F-117s can sneak in and drop an LGB on stuff that would otherwise necessitate the SDB? The Gripen option gives a not-terrible number of airframes too - more than we'd get F-18s. e: jumping on the BISON bandwagon for the 3d printing component. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 22:55
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Yooper posted:Sure. Just down the road. Welp that makes me feel a lot better about everything.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:56
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Mycroft Holmes posted:i just want my bomber. As do I! How about a sleek, speedy, supersonic Tu-22RDK? Defensive ECM, ELINT gathering, inflight refueling, recon capability, and just as much bomb capacity as any other Tu-22 Blinder. Crew of 3. 1985 vintage and so well within 3D printing availability when the time comes. Oh, and it can carry the FAB-3000, a 3000kg/6000lb bomb.  http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2112/ https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=2112 Realbarrow fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 22:58
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If we're not going to be using the Gripens/not upgrading the Gripen C, may I suggest we don't just up and sell it? I think it might be the last airframe that's lasted through all three of the initial theatres. Maybe we can create an aviation museum and start charging for admission. Hell, maybe the Angolans will want to put it in a museum of national liberation or as a memorial or something. Did Bac catch a lift back stateside on that boomer, perchance? I mean, he was already in Vladivostok... Argh, part of me wants those Tomcats, but the other part of me wants to stick with the Gripen... I don't suppose we might get the option to pick up those Tomcats at a later date, will we? Or is this a one-time opportunity?
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Oct 16, 2017 22:59
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Yvonmukluk posted:If we're not going to be using the Gripens/not upgrading the Gripen C, may I suggest we don't just up and sell it? I think it might be the last airframe that's lasted through all three of the initial theatres. Maybe we can create an aviation museum and start charging for admission. Hell, maybe the Angolans will want to put it in a museum of national liberation or as a memorial or something. If the chips do end up falling this way, yeah, we should keep that Gripen as our own personal mascot. Grippy the Gripen? As to your last question... Dr. Snark posted:Yooper, a question: will the prototype F-14s still be available after this procurement round? I can understand everyone else wanting to just put up more bodies, but I'd hate to lose the chance to get the planes that literally half our force died for. Yooper posted:Sure. Just down the road.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:03
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dudes. we can get the pope's gripens.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:04
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they even come with the swiss guard's paintjobs
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Oct 16, 2017 23:05
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The AA-12s that the BISONs are apparently the newer model that seems (somewhat) on par with the MICAs. Gripens + Bisons look like the best balance between performance and fun. I'm not sure that I want the Gripen Es to get AMRAAMs. It's more interesting to have to start using the Gripens as flexible support for the other aircraft rather than über-CAP all day, every day. Hexenritter posted:Gripen-Es, F-117C Brits and a loving stealth ELINT bote? Yvonmukluk posted:If we're not going to be using the Gripens/not upgrading the Gripen C, may I suggest we don't just up and sell it? I think it might be the last airframe that's lasted through all three of the initial theatres. Maybe we can create an aviation museum and start charging for admission. Hell, maybe the Angolans will want to put it in a museum of national liberation or as a memorial or something. Good idea.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:08
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Realbarrow posted:As do I! How about a sleek, speedy, supersonic Tu-22RDK? Defensive ECM, ELINT gathering, inflight refueling, recon capability, and just as much bomb capacity as any other Tu-22 Blinder. Crew of 3. 1985 vintage and so well within 3D printing availability when the time comes. all it has are dumb bombs.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:09
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Reiterpallasch posted:dudes. we can get the pope's gripens. I just had a split second vision of the Papal Gripens falling through a time vortex into PopeLP to fight Yazidi Timur and I'm pretty sure I believe in God now
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Oct 16, 2017 23:11
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PenguinSalsa posted:Nobody. Join us. I will protest, the Gripens are a bad choice with this limitation. Tomcats or Mirages (or F-16s if you hate fun). Mycroft Holmes posted:all it has are dumb bombs. What do you want in a bomber because I am sure I can dig up one old enough for our print-a-plane buddies that you can keep in your pocket for when we get a chance to do that.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:12
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Tomcats and ‘Murrica Why? Why not? Also because I wanted a Tomcat since I signed up and this is my opportunity to get one so you Eurotrash humpers better not take this away from me this is my loving DESTINY calling me.  I also know this will stick in Cryo’s craw something fierce if we get delicious BRRRRRRRTTTTTT instead of Meteor spam
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Oct 16, 2017 23:15
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Dr. Snark posted:Welp that makes me feel a lot better about everything. power crystals posted:I will protest, the Gripens are a bad choice with this limitation. Tomcats or Mirages (or F-16s if you hate fun). HereticMIND posted:Tomcats and ‘Murrica So, do we want to start building a BROADSTREET coalition then? We can
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Oct 16, 2017 23:20
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CourValant posted:So, do we want to start building a BROADSTREET coalition then? Yes.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:22
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HereticMIND posted:Tomcats and ‘Murrica BECAUSE TOP GUN IS BAD! (Seriously, though, you make an F-14 the star, over and above your human actors, and you don't include the scenario the Tomcat was literally made to combat?)
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Oct 16, 2017 23:27
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Mycroft Holmes posted:all it has are dumb bombs. What do you think we're going to get, some fancy USAF job full of PGMs? Ha! Beggars cannot be choosers. If many tons of bombs (or cruise missiles, if Yooper let us have them) aren't good enough for you, there's also a SEAD model, the Tu-22KPD. It can carry the Kh-22MP, a 215nm-range anti-radiation missile the size of a small car. http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2675/ https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=2675 power crystals posted:What do you want in a bomber because I am sure I can dig up one old enough for our print-a-plane buddies that you can keep in your pocket for when we get a chance to do that. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, old chap. I'm just not dangling the prospect of a B-52/B-1/B-2 we'll never, ever get. Realbarrow fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 23:27
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CourValant posted:So, do we want to start building a BROADSTREET coalition then? Sure. Davin Valkri posted:BECAUSE TOP GUN IS BAD! What are you talking about, Top Gun 100% featured a compressor stall! 
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Oct 16, 2017 23:29
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Consider, if we get the bote we will finally have a place to stash people in international waters! We can smuggle cocaine in it even!
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Oct 16, 2017 23:35
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My biggest concern about the tomcats is that there's only four of them. If we're still having to alternate them on missions, that means we only get two per mission effectively. Is that going to be enough? The sheer quantity of the Mirages, with decent-ish IRIS missiles, tempts me more. Three mirages per tomcat does not sound too bad a trade. On the other hand, the options to go with that aren't great. The Kai/Etendard set is terrible, and while maybe the nighthawks would be fun the boat seems useless. The Aardvarks, or the Intruders (which can carry Amraams too), are both much more attractive. I'm undecided.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:37
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What does an actual Intelligence ship like this do?
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Oct 16, 2017 23:38
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paragon1 posted:Consider, if we get the bote we will finally have a place to stash people in international waters! It can also pick up downed pilots and let them recuperate in the on-deck hot tub with wet bar.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:38
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