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Gripens and the stealth bombers Am I the only one who thinks that giving us access to actual stealth planes might be the USN's way of thanking us? Also, consider the following the AIM-120C's one the F-14s and F-117s are not actually 120C's. They're the 120B's our Phantoms have been throwing around since Tibet with a name change. Seriously.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:38
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Given how absolutely essential our AWACS has been a ship that is 90% antennas by volume should be able to come in useful
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Oct 16, 2017 23:42
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Dance Officer posted:Also, consider the following the AIM-120C's one the F-14s and F-117s are not actually 120C's. They're the 120B's our Phantoms have been throwing around since Tibet with a name change. Seriously. And our Phantoms punked a ton of aircraft with those things despite their age. Plus, they're cheap and if I'm understanding the rules correctly might be short-ranged/old enough to escape the multiple use tax. Not really seeing a downside here.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:44
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HereticMIND posted:Yes. power crystals posted:Sure. *Ahem* You heard it here first Folks! For a limited time only, the coalition supporting the greatest, bloatey-est, Military Industrial Complex of All-Time (other than ancient Rome, although mind you, they're both Republics) is proud to bring you: Procurement Plan: Blue Plate Special! Featuring the best the US Military has NEVER flown! Courtesy of Broadstreet and your pal in the USN! (Just don't mention it. Ever.) Arguments will be made! Favors will be traded! Names will be called! All. Are. Invited! Don't delay, pledge your support today!
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Oct 16, 2017 23:45
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Night10194 posted:What does an actual Intelligence ship like this do? I wanna say SIGINT mainly but that's just me guessing. 
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Oct 16, 2017 23:46
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Dance Officer posted:Also, consider the following the AIM-120C's one the F-14s and F-117s are not actually 120C's. They're the 120B's our Phantoms have been throwing around since Tibet with a name change. Seriously. Yep. Really it's a shame that the A2A on the Broadstreet packages are trash. I'd love to try out Intruders or Aardvarks or to fly Tomcats. But they simply don't have the capability to oppose any serious air opposition, not even opposing mercenary groups.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:46
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paragon1 posted:I wanna say SIGINT mainly but that's just me guessing. It's got an ELINT dish on it, so it should be able to track ships/planes based on their emissions. It also has a short range radar, for what purpose, I can't really tell. Bote lobby is pleased to recommend it's purchase (and it comes with Nighthawks so yeah).
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Oct 16, 2017 23:51
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power crystals posted:And our Phantoms punked a ton of aircraft with those things despite their age. Plus, they're cheap and if I'm understanding the rules correctly might be short-ranged/old enough to escape the multiple use tax. Not really seeing a downside here. The F-14s on offer here are anything but cheap and the gripens have always done the heavy lifting when it cam to A2A Buying the F14 is literally buying something that's inferior to the Mirage package for more.
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Oct 16, 2017 23:56
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I certainly hope they don't expect us to take on national militaries for them again if that's really the super special offer we get for helping them out.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:01
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This particular spy bote was designed by the Norwegians to spy on and annoy Russians, which is reason enough to vote for it.  Wikipedia posted:In general Russian authorities think the ship operates too close to Russian waters If we want mid-range BVR missiles the Mirages shouldn't be affected by the long-range tax. As TheDemon mentioned the Gripens give us the option to use advanced long-range missiles if, or rather when, necessary. Yooper: Will we see the theatre previews before the procurement vote? PenguinSalsa fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 00:06
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Night10194 posted:I certainly hope they don't expect us to take on national militaries for them again if that's really the super special offer we get for helping them out. Yeah, it looks like our big gamble was to trade some gripens (and lives, I guess) for some uhhh, underwhelming offerings.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:09
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Davin Valkri posted:BECAUSE TOP GUN IS BAD! No, it’s hilarious. Also, being in a Tomcat is my DESTINY. You will not stand in the way of it!
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Oct 17, 2017 00:12
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Night10194 posted:I certainly hope they don't expect us to take on national militaries for them again if that's really the super special offer we get for helping them out. punched my v-card at camp posted:Yeah, it looks like our big gamble was to trade some gripens (and lives, I guess) for some uhhh, underwhelming offerings. Yooper posted:They pulled out a flight of jets that haven't been seen since the Pentagon Procurement CatFight of 2016. These gems have been hidden away in a NIST lab where even Congress couldn't decipher the name. Because of a handwriting error 4 were ordered instead of a single prototype. While limited in capability they are the epitomy of air to air combat. If it flies, and it absolutely positively must die from a ridiculous distance, these jets are your best bet. If I'm reading this Yooper post correctly, we haven't actually seen the 'real reward' for being sold out by the USN. The options from Broadstreet are just from Halsey making a 'call'.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:16
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Perhaps we have stagnated after three theaters of "throw the Gripens and their Meteors at it" and it's time for a change. Something with more challenge, perhaps? Something...Slavic? Ivanov Lenin + both types of 3D-printed MiG. Full communism now! We must seize the means of destruction! Workers of Hayard-Gunnes, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chocks! Ahem. Seriously, we need some challenge up in here. No more resting on the same casually overpowered laurels. Stretch those minds, comrades! Also, props to Cryo for coming up with "we must seize the means of destruction" earlier this year.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:17
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CourValant posted:So, do we want to start building a BROADSTREET coalition then? Of course we can. I'm all for Maximum LIBERTY.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:45
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Ok, I guess I was looking for something we can't get. I was hoping for a TU-95, but I'll settle for whatever we can get that has four engines.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:52
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CourValant posted:If I'm reading this Yooper post correctly, we haven't actually seen the 'real reward' for being sold out by the USN. Okay, I think you're right. If so, that changes the logic for procurement. If we still have 4 superplanes to be revealed, we should focus on one of the midrange options. That way we'll have a lot of decent to good planes for mild missions and can keep the prototypes in reserve for when we need to do some serious A2A damage.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:55
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PenguinSalsa posted:Yooper: Will we see the theatre previews before the procurement vote? Working on it now. In regards to the USN bit, it'll open up some unique options for procurement down the road. I know everyone was clamoring for F-14's, so I had to find something that fit the bill, was halfway modern, and still unique. That particular bird met the requirements. Not every choice is awesome everytime, some are less awesome than others.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:59
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Dr. Snark posted:Of course we can. I'm all for Maximum LIBERTY. Who wouldn’t wanna poo poo out a hailstorm of bullets on an enemy tank platoon!
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Oct 17, 2017 01:22
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It's the original MARJATA! if you really want to piss of the Russians by simply existing, pick invisiboat. That's hilarious and insane, Yooper. There is only one in existence at the moment, and the Russians hate it. Apparently they just nicknamed it the ghost ship. Dear Bote lobby, if you don't lobby hard for what was the single most advanced spy ship in the world of its time (the new one is better, apparently) then I don't know what to do with you. Ching Kuos are cool. K&P are our friends.
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Oct 17, 2017 01:27
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Edit: this is not that thread!
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Oct 17, 2017 01:46
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Condoleezza Nice! posted:It's the original MARJATA! if you really want to piss of the Russians by simply existing, pick invisiboat. That's hilarious and insane, Yooper. Join bote lobby today! We only seek the most advanced that water buoyant warfare can offer!
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Oct 17, 2017 03:33
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I love procurement. Can't we keep them all though? I'll throw up a few questions/comments I have 1. Can we get a cut-off on the 3D printing date? I know Yooper said 20+ years but is that from today or from the scenario date (which is 2023?) This seems a little open to abuse depending on cost, we could print OG Gripens or some other fairly advanced bullshit depending on cost. Do we actually need to procure an airframe for reverse engineering? 2. Bearing in mind maintenance turn-around and plane availability I think we are going to need a lot more aircraft, particularly if we are going to be running more shorter scenarios. 3. Do we have to take a core+option or can we just take a core On to the packages... K&P Gripens Does this upgrade our existing Gripen to NG standard, leaving us with a total of 8? Is there any datalink sharing between these and older SAAB fighters? Can we 3D print some JA-37's (depending on vintage) and use these in a high/low mix with the Gripen's AESA? Having the option of throwing Meteors around coupled with AESA seems like a decent option. We can then supplement with cheaper/less capable airframes K&P Mirages Probably the most *sensible* option. Gives us good numbers and decent capability. Competes with the Flankers. I can't speak for specific capabilities of these planes but they are at least more modern than the Flankers. I suspect these will be more useful with the Flankers maybe having an edge WVR? K&P Ching-Kuo Don't know enough about these to speculate? Anyone care to weigh in? K&P options Invisiboat Seems like a pretty solid option. Having some stealth capability could turn out to be REAL handy. I don't know enough about the bote but it seems like it could be very useful in terms of mission planning/intelligence and other fun things. This option is very dependent on a couple of things: 1. Is there water in the next theatre? Bote needs to be useful 2: Are we keeping the Dutch around? Bote needs to not die. Super-Kai Not really worthwhile. These planes don't really add anything given we still have Tornados and (better?) Phantoms Ivanov Flankers As above in Mirage post. I think SARH kills these really. I also don't think either add-on is particularly attractive. The YAK44 and AN12BK might be interesting but they just come with too much trash to be worth it. Broadstreet Tomcats All other discussion aside I think there are too few planes and too gimped without the AAAM's. Broadstreet F-18 Again too few planes and too little capability Broadstreet F-16 A decent number of planes with some quality loadouts. But AIM-120A BFLM Options 'Murica I just don't know about the A-10's. Seems like they need a very permissive environment to operate in. If this is the case can't we just use anything else to fulfil this role? Intruders are almost as fragile? The ECM stuff is nice utility but can't we just 3d print more Prowlers? F-117's that sling missiles are all cool and good but only two? They could add some nice options in terms of sneak attacks but I think there are tooooo few of them. AARDVARK From what I can see these F-111F's can only drop bombs? I don't really think that's a huge capability gap we have. 6 aircraft is nice and they do carry a poo poo load of bombs. I guess they are good at a dash in-strike-run away role which may be useful. If we are going up against older tech and we can get away with one of two of these per short mission they may pay for themselves in destructobux really quickly. Don't know enough about the EP-3 to comment. OHMSM Sounds like we can get some fairly capable BVR fighters in great numbers for not too much money here? My questions about date cutoff/'prototype' procurement remain. Do we even have to make a decision on this now given that these may be available in theatre TL:DR Questions to (hopefully) be answered, K&P Gripens or Mirage as most solid choice with possible Invisibote add-on. Fill out missing capabilities cheaply with 3d printing slothrop fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 03:42
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Getting stealth aircraft, even 1st gen, would be pretty rad. also bote
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Oct 17, 2017 03:51
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sparkmaster posted:Getting stealth aircraft, even 1st gen, would be pretty rad.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:02
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slothrop posted:Super-Kai All the Phantoms were destroyed in the last mission, but yes, they were enormously better than these. slothrop posted:I just don't know about the A-10's. Seems like they need a very permissive environment to operate in. If this is the case can't we just use anything else to fulfil this role? The A-10's claim to fame (besides the gun) is its low speed and incredibly tight turning radius means it can put a lot of hurt out very quickly where a more typical fighter or multirole would have to make a number of passes with a long time between them. In a perfect environment one of these assholes can liquefy two tank platoons in a single pass and have some extras left over. I still don't think they're worth it, but there is a niche in which they're absurdly effective. Of course in reality you can get the same effect with a single B1-B and that one can actually get to the theater before the forces calling for air support die of old age, but until we have USAF levels of budget that's not an option. Though the F-111Fs make a convincing show of it...
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Oct 17, 2017 04:04
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I vote for suicide mission to get my fat rear end into the controls of a MiG-31 or better
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Oct 17, 2017 04:11
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power crystals posted:All the Phantoms were destroyed in the last mission, but yes, they were enormously better than these. Oops missed that one. Though I feel they're a bad option here when we can easily dial that capability in via our new supplier power crystals posted:The A-10's claim to fame (besides the gun) is its low speed and incredibly tight turning radius means it can put a lot of hurt out very quickly where a more typical fighter or multirole would have to make a number of passes with a long time between them. In a perfect environment one of these assholes can liquefy two tank platoons in a single pass and have some extras left over. I still don't think they're worth it, but there is a niche in which they're absurdly effective. Yeah I just don't see this happening, or Yooper has to design a specific scenario that takes advantage of this capability. It's not to say that I don't want to see the A-10 strutting it's stuff but that I think the F-111F is probably a better all rounder and comes with twice as many airframes.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:12
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Not gonna lie when i saw the bote option i was hoping for something with some missile capacity. Is it that much more useful than our current air radar/jamming fleet?
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Oct 17, 2017 04:15
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Agean90 posted:Not gonna lie when i saw the bote option i was hoping for something with some missile capacity. Is it that much more useful than our current air radar/jamming fleet? I guess it's more persistent and has more ELINT/SIGINT capabilities? I wonder if we are keeping the Dutch around for the next theatre which could prove a useful combo. We'd get access to their NH-90's(?) then too. Something that came up a bit in the previous theatre a bit was our lack of air transport. Do we look at supplementing that through our new supplier? A couple more C-130's couldn't hurt?
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Oct 17, 2017 04:21
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slothrop posted:Yeah I just don't see this happening, or Yooper has to design a specific scenario that takes advantage of this capability. It's not to say that I don't want to see the A-10 strutting it's stuff but that I think the F-111F is probably a better all rounder and comes with twice as many airframes. The A-10 is the weakest of the 3 parts of that option by far. The A-6Fs have some utterly comical loadouts (there's one that's like, 1x Harpoon + 2x Cluster + 1x GBU-12 + 2x AIM-120A) and the F-117s are all but invisible to radar until they fire and they're both very solid. I like the Aardvarks more but there's arguments either way. It's a shame the core options aren't that enticing; the aforementioned quantity issues with the Tomcats is a big problem as much as I really, really want those and those Hornets need to sit in the corner and think about what they've done what with actually using Sparrows at all ever. Agean90 posted:Not gonna lie when i saw the bote option i was hoping for something with some missile capacity. Is it that much more useful than our current air radar/jamming fleet? The main thing is the absolutely insane ELINT sensor with a range of nearly 1000km. We have nothing like that right now, at all. If you want to silently stalk an enemy (ideally a boat) this is one of the best in the world. If you want to do anything else it's practically worthless. e: slothrop posted:Something that came up a bit in the previous theatre a bit was our lack of air transport. Do we look at supplementing that through our new supplier? A couple more C-130's couldn't hurt? I don't think this is critical and we can probably get some cargo transports from basically anywhere if we need them.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:21
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Agean90 posted:Not gonna lie when i saw the bote option i was hoping for something with some missile capacity. Is it that much more useful than our current air radar/jamming fleet? It's not an air radar or jamming boat. It will hardly affect the mission environment at all. What it will do is give us information on what our opponents are doing to help with mission planning. Or possibly predict in-mission events (as set up by scripts). ELINT will also let it track things a bit, but that's more like having a floating satellite than a radar. e: Chunky Monkey is currently experimenting with detection ranges, but it can pick up some things pretty neatly from long distances. Emitting radars especially. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 04:25
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That all sounds really worth getting the bote for.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:29
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I see the bote as almost a bonus to getting the F-117's. Stealth could be a game changer for us against opponents who are technologically inferior to what we have been facing in the past. IF it turns out we don't have to take core+option and we go with K&P it will be an interesting debate whether the INVISIBOTE option is worth the extra money.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:30
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Stealth means we have a bit more leeway in dropping the cheaper bombs/A2G missiles since they can get in closer, yes?
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Oct 17, 2017 04:33
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The F-117 could be great for SEAD work. They go in and knock out air defenses either with precision bombs or the ALARMs, and the other aircraft go in after. We would be able to get closer to well defended targets, and reduce or eliminate the need for standoff weapons in a scenario.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:47
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The bote is sweet but can purely provide long range ELINT. Which, for example, if we pick a theatre nowhere near water or that doesn't have much maneuvering room, it's kinda useless. Ie, if we go in the Balkans that means the Bote has to stay off in the Med so not super useful. A-10's are fun but require total air supremacy and SAM sanitization to be effective. Too slow to outrun anything, not great jamming, anything that can shoot at them can and will zonk 'em. Think some helos if we can get some cheap end ones to have as backup ground attack or insertion can't hurt, but only if they're cheap. Definitely think we should keep the remaining Gripens we have, if only for reserve craft for high end CAP. If we can upgrade 'em even better. Guess my take (not havin ga clue whatsoever mind so feel free to make fun of me) our choices are high end lower quantity, low end higher quantity, or specialized swiss cheese.
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Oct 17, 2017 05:12
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Being that intel bote cannot defend itself, it also potentially ends up being a resource sink whenever it's in theatre: we'll have to have CAP around it for fear of losing our expensive asset. I don't know if the ELINT it provides us is going to be much better than what we can get through other means either. I'm not sure that package is worth it just for the 117s. Personally I love the idea of Tomcats and a bunch of angry Aardvarks, then print some early Intruders or MiG-23Bs/27s to really till the soil. Yooper, can we sell aircraft we've procured at any point?
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Oct 17, 2017 06:52
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Procurement Option 'Swingdance' Tomcats Aardvarks Flogger-Js If we have time, Tornados, Backfires and Fencers Because why be a pilot if you can't make the ground crews life hell?
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Oct 17, 2017 07:23
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sparkmaster posted:Getting stealth aircraft, even 1st gen, would be pretty rad. def want bote imo
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Oct 17, 2017 07:35
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