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Fat Samurai posted:That leg of lamb? Yo can get here without it. And then you eat the pie because it's so obvious. And then you spend 2 days banging your head against the wall before noticing something is off. Or if you're me you decide gently caress this, games are supposed to be fun not obsessively trying combinations of every single thing you have to get one screen further before you have to start again from the beginning. It was my one and only experience with a Sierra game and put me off ever trying another. I'm glad this thread has vindicated my decision.
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Oct 15, 2017 09:33
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Runcible Cat posted:Or if you're me you decide gently caress this, games are supposed to be fun not obsessively trying combinations of every single thing you have to get one screen further before you have to start again from the beginning. Except KQ6 was actually pretty good.
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Oct 15, 2017 09:56
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I am very curious who O and Lisa are.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:11
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Discendo Vox posted:I am very curious who O and Lisa are. tcrf.net thinks O is Oliver Brelsford, one of the game's programmers. No idea who Lisa is, though.
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Oct 16, 2017 13:17
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tarbrush posted:Except KQ6 was actually pretty good. Gosh, I remember reading a review of KQ6 in the Gamesmaster magazine all those years ago. I was enthralled by the screenshots of the guard dogs barring Alexander from entering the palace, the sense gnomes hurling him into the sea and Jollo talking to him in the town library. It looked like the most amazing thing ever, actually getting to wander around an enchanted kingdom and meet all those weird and wonderful characters. Sadly though, I never got to play it as a kid and so the game took on a mythical quality for me. Something I'd heard tell of but never experienced for myself. Say what you want about Kings Quest (and let's face it, most people do) but it was truly magical for this guy to finally play that game.
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Oct 16, 2017 13:24
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Comstar posted:I am dissapointed you can't pretend to be Greywolf and get some random reward for it.
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Oct 16, 2017 19:04
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Mikl posted:He's the other sir Greywolf, sir Greywolf's brother, son of sir Greywolf and dame Greywolf. And their cousin, Greywolf the Lab
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Oct 16, 2017 19:39
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And then there is poor third cousin twice removed MoonMoon. ...We don't like to talk about him.
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Oct 17, 2017 02:03
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 Hello everyone, and welcome back to King's Quest V. Today is going to be fun. I've already written a lot about how this game is not very good. It's full of bad and poorly thought out puzzles that don't seem to share the same logic the rest of reality works with. But the entire game has had two puzzles looming large on the horizon, casting everything else in their very long shadows. These two puzzles are the only contenders in the running for "worst in the game" and it's an award they share jointly. Today we are going to cover the first of them. So let's not waste any more time and get going. For related reasons, it's a really good idea to drop a save on this screen.  Descriptive saves are very important, as they let you easily return to specific parts of the game in the future. Here, context clues will let me know that loving BULLSHIT, after the Icebella save, means something very specific. It's also so very, very sad when you need context clues to make "loving BULLSHIT" clearer in terms of this game.  northeast King's Quest V - The Yeti    : What an abominable situation Graham's found himself in. I like doing this more and more lately, but I want to drive home a point each time I do it. We have the correct item to drive off the dreaded yeti. So what is it? Do we use the harp to "tame the savage beast" or perhaps the hammer to bash its brains in? Maybe Crispin's wand to turn it into a faerie. How about the pie?  yeti Yeah. The pie. The... the god... the f... THE PIE. That quote from Yahtzee comes to mind again. Allow me to repost it from earlier in the thread to refresh everyone's collective memory. "Zero Punctuation, the Walking Dead posted:First, think of a problem that the player has to get around... like, say, helping a cat down from a tree. Then, think of how a normal, sensible person would solve the issue with the objects that would be close at hand. Then seal your head inside of a half-full vat of boiling chlorine for about twenty minutes, and write down another way you'd solve the problem that at that moment makes perfect sense to your probably fatally poisoned mind. Repeat this process until you have discovered the most circuitous possible solution. Logic has left the building. It has no place in this Abstract puzzle solutions have always been a thing in adventure games. It's just what they do. The pie in the yeti's face on the other hand is just... who would even come up with that? WHY? Was this like Friday afternoon at quarter to five? If I go into the source code for the game will I see a commented out section saying "COME BACK LATER TO REDO THE YETI PUZZLE?" The alternative is that someone was actually proud of this puzzle. That they thought that they were clever and were self congratulatory about it. Now if you want a really depressing thought, think back to my ramblings at the start of the update. There's yet another puzzle solution that is just as bad later in the game. Let's just move on and walk into the crystal cave. It's kind of a tedious area to get through, and we have to get to the bottom. So I've found a map online to help out. So let's not waste any time. north King's Quest V - Crystal Garden I may have gotten the crystal caves mixed up with the Crystal Caves. Happens all the time. Anyway, this screen is optional insofar as if we don't visit it and find the single item, we'll get a game over in around an hour as we enter the final part of the game. After the pie incident earlier, I'm not feeling charitable towards the game right now. So the item we need is right under the walk cursor. How you're supposed to guess that I can't even pretend to know. Paranormal psychic powers work as well as anything else when it comes to trying to understand Roberta Williams.  one specific crystal: So very gently, Graham hits the beautiful crystal several times with his hammer until it breaks loose in one piece. He carefully places it among his other possessions. The gif here isn't perfect. The narrator decides the perfect time to interrupt the animation is right in the middle, where he slowly reads the above line for a solid 10 seconds.  : The brilliant crystal shard feels smooth in Graham's hands.That's all we need to do here. So let's leave. south, west, to Sir Greywolf   : I see that the yeti is dead. Queen Icebella will be pleased. Come... follow me. Click here for video    : Ah, good. You have returned in victory, I presume? : Yes, Your Majesty. The yeti is dead. He will no longer be a scourge upon your realm. Are my... friend and I free to go now?: Yes. I keep my promises. I want to thank you for ridding my mountain domain of the horrible yeti. Please rise, King Graham.: Yes, I know who you are and I have been informed of your quest. I do wish you luck against the wizard Mordack. : You two may go. We wish you well on your difficult journey. Sir Greywolf will show you the way out of the mountains. : Your Majesty, please pray for me to succeed in my quest.: Very well.: Also pray that after I rescue my family, I forget about your attempted regicide. Because if I return, it will be with an army at my back. Goodbye.: You can't talk to...: I just did. Now be quiet or get out of my way.: Graham walks right past Sir Greywolf without giving the beast a second look.  Now with Cedric back, we can take the southern path. If we hadn't gotten the crystal earlier, this is the last chance to do so.  : Let's go, Graham! I'm coooold and I want to get out of here! south This screen is just transitory. I assume you can fall off the ledge here, but there's no funny death for doing so. The screen ends when you climb up to the ledge with Cedric, where a cutscene takes over.  : Graham, watch out!King's Quest V - Snatched and Rescued  I love the little village that's visible on this screen. I guess that means Icebella is a proper Queen after all. Not just some petty tyrant who carved out a tiny spit of land in the mountains that nobody cared about and granted herself a titular kingdom.  Alright so, this is basically just an extended cutscene we can interact with. Do you see that tiny speck next to Graham?  Do you see it now? You have less than 15 seconds to grab it. It glints constantly, to be fair. But if you fail to grab it, then you have entered one of the longest DMWs in the entire game. If you do everything else right, it doesn't terminate all the way until the final puzzle, deep in Mordack's island castle. You have absolutely no way of knowing that failing to pick up yet another literal pixel item almost a full hour previous is what hosed you over. Your only clue that you hosed up here will be that a plot critical NPC will not give you the time of day.  glinting pixel : Graham rescues a lovely golden locket from the clutches of the roc's nest.Anyway, that Roc somehow thought that Graham was food for its unborn children. I guess it ran out of villagers to harass? By the way, that giant egg in the background is cracking.  : Uh... nice birdie! Good birdie! Heh, heh... gootchy, gootchy, goo!You have until Graham starts trying to placate the newborn Roc to pick up the locket. It's not a lot of time, so be quick! By the way, did you feed the eagle earlier? If so, then congratulations - you get to live. If not, then you get eaten by the baby Roc.  : Hang on, I'll get you out of this!  : Oh Graham, where have you been? I've been looking all over for you!: You'd never believe it, Cedric. You'd never believe it.This is a perfect place to call it for now. NEXT TIME: We start the final major area of the game with yet another infamous "gently caress you" puzzle. Should be fun! List of Points +4 - The Pie +4 - Delicate crystal + HAMMER +2 - Pixel Hunt v4 +2 - Helped by eagle Total 154/260 Register of Deaths Yeti Friend
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Oct 17, 2017 02:52
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This is the only part in KQ5 where the narrator talks to Graham directly. yeti The yeti!! Run, Graham!!
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Oct 17, 2017 03:04
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The pie puzzle's logic is clear and obvious if you play through the game with the mindset of the Three Stooges as I, the superior adventure gamer, have, 
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Oct 17, 2017 03:24
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Of course you hit the yeti in the face with the pie! It is the height of comedy! It's basically the "throw shoe at cat" bit again but much, much funnier!
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Oct 17, 2017 03:25
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I don't know what the rest of King's Quest V looks like because the yeti made me lose my will to live.
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Oct 17, 2017 03:28
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Bregor posted:Of course you hit the yeti in the face with the pie! It is the height of comedy! It's basically the "throw shoe at cat" bit again but much, much funnier! Of course, you really meant "THROW BRIDLE at SNAKE"
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Oct 17, 2017 04:10
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It's a puzzle that only makes the barest of sense in retrospect and desperation, the idea of throwing whatever you've got at the thing in an attempt to slow it down and getting a lucky shot. The crystal was a true nightmare in 16 colors. Looking at any of the crystals tells you there is one that stands out, but it blends into the unusable background crystals perfectly and absolutely nothing even hints at the correct location. On a side note, the first several times I played I had no clue the cave even went farther than the opening where you 'fight' the yeti.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:32
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DoubleNegative posted:
Graham, don't kid yourself. This is the same Daventry that had to send one of your ancestors on a quest to personally rescue a woman from a dragon because with a population of 7 (3 of which were royalty and the rest were either elderly, outlaws or not human) there wasn't enough people to draft. Also, this woman's 'realm' consists if her and 2 wolves. What the hell would you need an army for?
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Oct 17, 2017 04:45
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Graham, don't kid yourself. This is the same Daventry that had to send one of your ancestors on a quest to personally rescue a woman from a dragon because with a population of 7 (3 of which were royalty and the rest were either elderly, outlaws or not human) there wasn't enough people to draft. That's what he means, though: his army is going to be literally the entire population of his realm, and they're going to bring the fight to the Ice Queen's army of herself and her two wolves.
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Oct 17, 2017 05:08
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:That's what he means, though: his army is going to be literally the entire population of his realm, and they're going to bring the fight to the Ice Queen's army of herself and her two wolves. Half a dozen protagonists trying objects in their inventory on objects in their environment with multiple overlapping audio clips of "I can't do that". The horror. The horror.
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Oct 17, 2017 05:20
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I've got to say, that yeti puzzle doesn't seem too bad to me. Like, the first time you see the pie you've got to suspect that someone's getting hit in the face with it at some point, right?
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Oct 17, 2017 08:07
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Yeah, this game is gold-tier bullshit, but the pie being the solution made perfect sense to my child brain when I played. The really thing that makes this game so hated isn't the actual solutions to the puzzles, but the linear way the game is laid out so that you can't go back and try and find solutions. The pie is pretty easy to figure out AS LONG AS YOU CAN GO BACK AND GET THE PIE, which of course you can't. This is why I still love KQ4 to this day. You could go basically anywhere and get yourself killed, but eventually you would find the right solutions as you tested stuff out. The game only really changed states once you had the items you needed, so you couldn't really get stuck (except for the items on the whale island).
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Oct 17, 2017 08:40
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It could've been much worse. Back when the game was still in the design phase, the poooooooisonous snake didn't exist. There was nothing to keep the player from going up the mountain path and getting stuck without all the items they'd need to solve the puzzles. The snake was added as an obstacle purely to stop that from happening. Notice how you can only get the tambourine, which you use to scare if away, after you've done everything else in Serenia?
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Oct 17, 2017 10:21
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The glinting pixel doesn't seem that bad, depending on how bullshit the time limit is. My only comment on the pie would be five lines of heavy swearing though, so I'll simply skip that and think happy thoughts. E: how precisely do you have to aim with your mouse to pick up that pixel?
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Oct 17, 2017 11:00
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Yeah, this game is gold-tier bullshit, but the pie being the solution made perfect sense to my child brain when I played. The really thing that makes this game so hated isn't the actual solutions to the puzzles, but the linear way the game is laid out so that you can't go back and try and find solutions. The pie is pretty easy to figure out AS LONG AS YOU CAN GO BACK AND GET THE PIE, which of course you can't. And as long as you didn't EAT the pie back when Graham was hungry, either because you didn't find the meat or wanted to save it to feed the eagle (not knowing there were 2 portions). Eshettar posted:It could've been much worse. Back when the game was still in the design phase, the poooooooisonous snake didn't exist. There was nothing to keep the player from going up the mountain path and getting stuck without all the items they'd need to solve the puzzles. The snake was added as an obstacle purely to stop that from happening. Notice how you can only get the tambourine, which you use to scare if away, after you've done everything else in Serenia? DoubleNegative got the tambourine before trading at all the stores in town and visiting the inn, so it's still not a very good obstacle.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:20
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The time is about 10-15 seconds, a bit more if your computer is below 'required' spec.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:21
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Omobono posted:The glinting pixel doesn't seem that bad, depending on how bullshit the time limit is. At least in the version I played, you don't have to be super precise as long as there's nothing else that is a valid option for the same command very close to it; anywhere on the glint should be okay. Edit: I did not play the version DoubleNegative is; mine was the floppy version, but I can't imagine they made it harder. (Actually, this being KQ5, I can, but I'm choosing to believe they wouldn't.) Prism fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 16:29
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Nah, once you notice the glint picking it up isn't hard. The problem is the time limit on noticing it and grabbing it before the eagle saves you (or the roc eats you) ... which, if KQ5 is your first adventure game, I could see being a real problem. It helps that here, unlike the town, the background isn't such a visual mess that you might lose it. A bright gold speck against a dark brown nest is pretty good contrast, plus it's placed right by Graham's hand. the DMW it gives you, though, is pretty rude. That can't be overstated - you have a lot of bullshit to redo if you miss this one. And it's not communicated - at all, I believe - why you just got yourself into a DMW. Only your finely tuned adventure game senses of "I missed something and must go back and click on literally everything" will save you.
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Oct 17, 2017 16:44
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After the treasure vault I was extremely well-trained to pick up strange glints as fast as possible. But yeah, if you don't, it's really hard to figure out what you missed later. As said, it's not communicated at all - someone won't talk to you without the locket, but if you don't have it a) they don't tell you they want a locket and b) even if they did, you are very likely to not realize the glint in the nest was a locket. Prism fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 17:15
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Tiggum posted:I've got to say, that yeti puzzle doesn't seem too bad to me. Like, the first time you see the pie you've got to suspect that someone's getting hit in the face with it at some point, right? I'm with you on this. Looking at this game from the perspective of modern gaming just doesn't work. Games were played differently back then! Things worked more like this: expect that you will die, so drop many saves at different points in the game. Keep 2-3 recent saves and all past saves dropped before major game points (like before you go up the mountain) so you can safely back track. Explore everywhere in an area before moving to a new one. Search the entire screen each screen for objects you can pick up. When you encounter a maze, drop a save at the beginning and map the whole thing out on paper. When you encounter a puzzle you can't solve, try to work it out, but then just use every item in your inventory in case it works. If that doesnt work, you probably missed picking something up so go back or return to an early save to search old locations more in-depth. With regards to the pie, it's pretty hard to miss the bakery, and once you find the bakery they make it pretty obvious that you can (and thus need to) buy a pie. Plus the type of pie is custard, not your typical eating choice, makes it slightly more clear that you.d use it for throwing rather than eating. It's kind of a dick move that you can eat it in the mountains, but I'd argue that you could potentially figure this out too after getting to the eagle you'd be left with half a leg of lamb. Even if you couldn't figure out that you need to throw the pie, you'd eventually reach the point where you try using your entire inventory on the yeti. If you missed the pie you'd have to backtrack to your pre-mountains save which sucks, but once you've gone through all the puzzles once you can blaze through them again pretty fast and skip the cutscenes.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:54
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SchrodingersFish posted:Plus the type of pie is custard, not your typical eating choice.  Don't disrespect the pie
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Oct 17, 2017 19:30
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SchrodingersFish posted:Plus the type of pie is custard, not your typical eating choice, makes it slightly more clear that you.d use it for throwing rather than eating.  More seriously, the pie-in-the-face thing was relatively unknown, or at least I was not really aware of it when I played the game for the first time.
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Oct 17, 2017 20:52
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SchrodingersFish posted:It's kind of a dick move that you can eat it in the mountains, but I'd argue that you could potentially figure this out too after getting to the eagle you'd be left with half a leg of lamb. If you eat the pie and give the leg of lamb to the eagle, he eats the whole thing.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:05
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Reading the update and the folllowing comments, I could not help but be reminded of this.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:35
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Why would you think that the Yeti in particular would be vulnerable to pies, unlike every other dangerous thing we've run into so far? It's nonsensical.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:47
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And yeti.. Maybe the bumbling walk was supposed to remind you of the 3 stooges?
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Oct 18, 2017 02:18
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Of course! In his natural arctic environment, he had no opportunity to cultivate a defense against baked goods!
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Oct 18, 2017 04:31
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The Yeti puzzle to me feels a lot like the Bridle on Snake puzzle in that most people would only figure it out by trying everything, but with the added bad idea of making it trivially easy to get to that point without the pie.
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Oct 18, 2017 05:07
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Nidoking posted:If you eat the pie and give the leg of lamb to the eagle, he eats the whole thing. I'm in awe of how much of a jerk Roberta can be. 
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Oct 18, 2017 08:21
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Yeah! She put real thought into screwing over the player, didn't she? The sheer amount of situations in which you can end up unable to finish your quest really is staggering! If you don't save the rat from the cat, you can't free yourself from your bonds later. If you save the rat but didn't give the cobbler the elf-made shoes in return for his hammer, you can't remove the padlock which is mysteriously inside the room with you. If you manage to escape the cellar but forget to take the meat with you, you'll have nothing to feed the eagle when you meet him. If you have the meat but didn't take a bite out of it yourself, he'll gobble up the whole thing, leaving you with no hint that it was possible to eat some yourself and save the rest for him. And since you had to have eaten the custard pie to get that far, that leaves you completely unarmed when you face the Yeti. And the kicker is that you'll have absolutely no idea it was wrong to eat the pie and give the meat to the hungry bird! Eshettar fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Oct 18, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 09:45
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It was all a lesson for children. When you have a choice between meat and dessert, you need to eat your meat. How can you have any custard pie if you don't eat your meat?
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Oct 18, 2017 12:27
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Nidoking posted:It was all a lesson for children. When you have a choice between meat and dessert, you need to eat your meat. How can you have any custard pie if you don't eat your meat? I mean the no-fun answer is that it was accepted game design strategy back then, but I really have to wonder if this wasn't intentionally part of it. Was there a moral lesson in here? Hmmm.
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Oct 18, 2017 17:16
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