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JUST MAKING CHILI posted:This is dumb, you are dumb. Worker productivity has increased while wages stay stagnant. The same worker today can produce more in 40 hours than the same worker could have 10, 20, 30, etc years ago. The people that should pay for it are the people that have profited off of this same productivity increase - the executives and shareholders, by reducing their ridiculous pay/stock options/returns.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:20
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twodot posted:This is not even a should question. Obviously the DNC possesses values of its own, it's just that their values are the enrichment of people like themselves as opposed to worthy political goals. What could it even mean for an organization like the DNC to not possess values? Funding literally any group/person with "Democratic" in the title? No my question was about if the DNC should be the arbiter of value choices for the party and force the states to follow their lead or if the states should force the DNC to change as the state parties' values change. Charging the DNC to be the arbiter of values rather than the grassroots is a mistake even if it seems like it is for a good purpose. People have this idea of the DNC as the mythical hive of Democratic Politics where all the power is held when the opposite is true, the DNC is a clearinghouse for Democratic Politics and exists as a continued compromise between the power bases of the party. The same is true for the RNC. But unlike Democrats, the RNC has to contend with powerful grassroots organizations in a way that impacts the values the RNC adopts. Asking Bernie to become a Democrat is a sign those power bases have shifted. To shift those power bases more we need to strengthen our grassroots organizating and allied political groups rather than waiting for some signal from the DNC.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Obama had this on a few levels: First Black Candidate, but also Democrat Who Voted Against The War. And the branding was all the more spectacular for making everyone believe he voted against the war when he wasn't even in Congress at the time the vote was taken. Same with "Obama in his heart truly wanted single-payer but that dastardly Lieberman thwarted Obama's plans."
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Oct 17, 2017 23:32
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/status/920382114801086464 This isn't "the DNC", this is one individual DNC member who is currently proposing that to the DNC as a whole. The DNC hasn't actually considered this motion yet. It's also a fairly transparent marketing ploy with no policy impact.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:33
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Dead Reckoning posted:Again, it's irrelevant to the question. You make the change, you change the market. Unless you're also imposing price controls. And salary controls. And if your pitch is, "let's have a 20 hour work week! All we need to do is completely abolish capitalism and international trade and our government as we know it" then you might want to put that part up front. You are a nitwit if you think something that's been around for about a hundred years (the 40 hour work week) is just too well established and entrenched to be changed. You'd have been arguing the same thing about the 60 hour work week a hundred years ago, or about serfdom in the middle ages. Things change and things can change for the better, if we push for them. Sure, we might not get the 20 hour work week tomorrow, but we could push it to 35, then 30, so forth and so on. The trick is that people like you don't care and don't want them to change because you just don't give a gently caress about other people.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:40
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Trabisnikof posted:No my question was about if the DNC should be the arbiter of value choices for the party and force the states to follow their lead or if the states should force the DNC to change as the state parties' values change. Charging the DNC to be the arbiter of values rather than the grassroots is a mistake even if it seems like it is for a good purpose.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:41
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Main Paineframe posted:This isn't "the DNC", this is one individual DNC member who is currently proposing that to the DNC as a whole. The DNC hasn't actually considered this motion yet. It's also a fairly transparent marketing ploy with no policy impact. Also this is about then running for Senate, not President as some people seemed to be intimating last page
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Oct 17, 2017 23:44
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Bunch of malcontents who want to do nothing but bitch ITT (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 17, 2017 23:48
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DrNutt posted:You are a nitwit if you think something that's been around for about a hundred years (the 40 hour work week) is just too well established and entrenched to be changed. You'd have been arguing the same thing about the 60 hour work week a hundred years ago, or about serfdom in the middle ages. Things change and things can change for the better, if we push for them. Sure, we might not get the 20 hour work week tomorrow, but we could push it to 35, then 30, so forth and so on. The trick is that people like you don't care and don't want them to change because you just don't give a gently caress about other people. I'm opposed to change in this case because I think the people calling for it are ideologues who have little understanding of how things work now, do not grasp what would be required to achieve the end they want, and who I would not trust with the power required to enact their vision.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:53
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Willa Rogers posted:And the branding was all the more spectacular for making everyone believe he voted against the war when he wasn't even in Congress at the time the vote was taken. Oh, I'm willing to give Obama credit for being against the Iraq war. He was low profile enough that it wasn't a controversial stance for him to take at the time, but still, he took it, publicly and on the record, and he was an elected office holder at the time. That said, it allowed him to paint himself as more credibly left-wing than Hillary, and that's what mattered, because the Democratic PArty base is further left than the leadership and has been for a long time.
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Oct 17, 2017 23:54
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Democrazy posted:Just look at the Women's March Conference How many people really gave that much of a poo poo about that, though? Like, even before the conference clarified that no, he wasn't going to be the headline act, I don't think more than a few idiots on twitter cared.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:05
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Majorian posted:How many people really gave that much of a poo poo about that, though? Like, even before the conference clarified that no, he wasn't going to be the headline act, I don't think more than a few idiots on twitter cared. Regrettably, this is 2017, so idiots on Twitter not only drive news cycles, they’re also leading the free world. 
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Oct 18, 2017 00:07
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N00ba the Hutt posted:Regrettably, this is 2017, so idiots on Twitter not only drive news cycles, they’re also leading the free world. Well sure, but some twitter shitfits drive the news cycle, and some don't. I don't think this one was ever going to drive the news cycle.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:12
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm sorry, are you saying that the abolition of serfdom and the eventual transition to our modern system of workers rights weren't radical and sometimes violent changes that re-ordered entire societies? So you're just okay with the current level of exploitation required by capital? Or you are not enough discomforted by inequality to care? Does it matter that the status quo is currently incrementally pushing us back to serfdom, and in fact requires almost literal serfdom/slavery in developing countries to even be functional as is? You're just okay with all that because an alternative might be worse, or they might be a high price for society to pay to achieve? Cool! 
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Oct 18, 2017 00:31
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, I'm willing to give Obama credit for being against the Iraq war. He was low profile enough that it wasn't a controversial stance for him to take at the time, but still, he took it, publicly and on the record, and he was an elected office holder at the time. He gets credit for being against the Iraq war--especially in the era in which Dem members of Congress were singing "god bless america" on the steps on the capitol, but my point was that the genius in his branding was getting high-info voters as yourself to reflexively state that "he voted against the war" or (not you, but others) "he really wanted single-payer." Like, a literal talking point elected Dems were given about the ACA a few months ago was that "it provides every American with healthcare" when the ACA does absolutely nothing of the sort. This rhetoric is a feature, not a bug, and imo it's why Dems have a hard time getting lefties to find the party or its candidates as credible or authentic these days.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:31
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Majorian posted:While I agree that someone who's younger would be advantageous, I think Trump's shown that old age, poor health, etc, are no longer the barriers that they once were. He has? He seems exhausted and verging on the senile. Bernie is more spry, but also would be nearly 10 years older.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:35
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Willa Rogers posted:He gets credit for being against the Iraq war--especially in the era in which Dem members of Congress were singing "god bless america" on the steps on the capitol, but my point was that the genius in his branding was getting high-info voters as yourself to reflexively state that "he voted against the war" or (not you, but others) "he really wanted single-payer." Fair points. Asked cold without wikipedia I'd probably have said that he voted against it as a state senator (though yeah he just gave a speech). The amazing thing in retrospect is that Obama was smart enough to realize he had to brand himself as the more progressive candidate, but wasn't smart enough to realize it would be a good idea to actually implement some of that stuff.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:43
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Majorian posted:While I agree that someone who's younger would be advantageous, I think Trump's shown that old age, poor health, etc, are no longer the barriers that they once were. Left-Dems still need to build their bench out as much as possible, but I think people are writing Bernie himself, Warren, etc, off too quickly because of their age. I don't think those would disqualify them among voters as easily as people tend to assume. They aren't necessarily barriers to election but they are barriers to "being a good president".
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Oct 18, 2017 00:43
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DrNutt posted:So you're just okay with the current level of exploitation required by capital? Especially when they refuse to engage with what leveling out the developed and developing world would actually mean, or how they intend to safeguard the commons that they want to expand. And yeah, if all alternatives are worse, I'll keep what we have. Convince me that you can do better. I want something to believe in other than the grim certainty that climate change, resource depletion, and antibiotic resistance are going to kill most of us. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Oct 18, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 00:48
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Majorian posted:How many people really gave that much of a poo poo about that, though? Like, even before the conference clarified that no, he wasn't going to be the headline act, I don't think more than a few idiots on twitter cared. They're getting quite a bit of flack on social media and I know many women personally who care, although much of this is umbrage that any man would speak at the conference.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Fair points. Asked cold without wikipedia I'd probably have said that he voted against it as a state senator (though yeah he just gave a speech). Did you notice how he sweated blood to reform healthcare and get gay marriage passed federally? I guess not.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:51
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BarbarianElephant posted:Did you notice how he sweated blood to reform healthcare and get gay marriage passed federally? I guess not. Obama didn't get gay marriage passed federally.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:53
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BarbarianElephant posted:Did you notice how he sweated blood to reform healthcare and get gay marriage passed federally? I guess not. Obama almost gave away Medicare and only failed because the Republicans were even dumber than he was. You can argue over his intentions etc. but he took about six years too long to realize the Republicans were never going to negotiate with him in good faith. Trabisnikof posted:Obama didn't get gay marriage passed federally. yeah I can't tell if that's like crypto-irony or what poe's law == a bitch
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Oct 18, 2017 00:54
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Trabisnikof posted:Obama didn't get gay marriage passed federally. None of this stuff was just him. That's not the way politics works. You may be confusing the President with a superhero.
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Oct 18, 2017 00:57
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Fair points. Asked cold without wikipedia I'd probably have said that he voted against it as a state senator (though yeah he just gave a speech). Actually, I think he turned the campaign CW around: He ran kinda to the right during the primary (Harry & Louise mailers against insurance mandate; "Reagan had some good ideas") but further left during the GE (maybe bc of Palin). And as I recall, he won a lot of crossover votes from GOP voters in the primaries, particularly in the open-caucus states, so that was a good strategy. The truest thing Obama ever said was in his book when he described himself as a blank slate onto which people projected their hopes and own political beliefs.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:01
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BarbarianElephant posted:None of this stuff was just him. That's not the way politics works. You may be confusing the President with a superhero. The Federalist Society literally had more direct involvement in legalizing gay marriage federally than Obama did. Ted Olsen was a founding member
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Oct 18, 2017 01:02
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Dead Reckoning posted:No, but I don't think internet leftists blathering about UBI or a 20 hour work week are remotely equipped or prepared to solve it. So I guess you really are just arguing in bad faith then, because no one here is going to solve it. We can however, work to elect politicians who are actively seeking to buck against the status quo and enact leftist policies! Your last paragraph is more likely though because we just elected a bunch of grifters to enrich themselves and their crony friends and make it that much harder for us to crawl back from the brink.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:05
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I love that we still have this whole "Obama didn't get all this progressive stuff passed!" Which completely ignores reality. Him thinking that he could actually work with Republicans was a big error on his part though.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:11
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Dead Reckoning posted:No, but I don't think internet leftists blathering about UBI or a 20 hour work week are remotely equipped or prepared to solve it. Antibiotic resistance wont kill us. It can't. It is a self solving problem. Once antibiotics stop working on a population of bacteria then you just stop using them. Since resistance takes more energy from a bacteria than non resistence, evolution steps in and the resistence solves itself. You can do this by antibiotic types, or all at once. Former is preferable, but the latter will still not be long enough for 'everyone to die'.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:19
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Boon posted:Bunch of malcontents who want to do nothing but bitch ITT  half your posts are long-winded critiques of other posters
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Oct 18, 2017 01:22
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BarbarianElephant posted:None of this stuff was just him. That's not the way politics works. You may be confusing the President with a superhero. You don't even understand how gay marriage was legalized nationally do you?
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Oct 18, 2017 01:30
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https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/920467129350148096 Part Captain Planet villain, part Bond villain, all Oklahoma.
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Oct 18, 2017 02:55
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/920467129350148096 loving hang yourself you hypocritical piece of poo poo.
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Oct 18, 2017 03:02
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FBI uncovered Russian bribery plot before Obama administration approved controversial nuclear deal with Moscowquote:They also obtained an eyewitness account — backed by documents — indicating Russian nuclear officials had routed millions of dollars to the U.S. designed to benefit former President Bill Clinton’s charitable foundation during the time Secretary of State Hillary Clinton served on a government body that provided a favorable decision to Moscow, sources told The Hill.
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Oct 18, 2017 03:42
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Former Democratic Governor of Tennessee Phil Bredesen might take a shot at Corker's senate seat. He's something of a dinosaur, and an utterly poo poo Democrat, but Tennessee being Tennessee, he'd be preferable to any Republican. The state's gone even redder since his day, so I doubt he could get anywhere, but it would be interesting to see how his brand fares. As annoying as another Manchin would be, denying the GOP a Tennessee seat would be hilarious. Not gonna happen though, because good things don't happen anymore. http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/former-democratic-governor-weighing-tennessee-senate-run
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Oct 18, 2017 04:16
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Kokoro Wish posted:FBI uncovered Russian bribery plot before Obama administration approved controversial nuclear deal with Moscow quote:Multiple current and former government officials told The Hill they did not know whether the FBI or DOJ ever alerted committee members to the criminal activity they uncovered. ..But I'm at least looking for my lighter: quote:The final court case also made no mention of any connection to the influence peddling conversations the FBI undercover informant witnessed about the Russian nuclear officials trying to ingratiate themselves with the Clintons even though agents had gathered documents showing the transmission of millions of dollars from Russia’s nuclear industry to an American entity that had provided assistance to Bill Clinton’s foundation, sources confirmed to The Hill. edit: I don't like deleting my posts but I would like to indicate for the record that no, this is bullshit, I fell hook line and sinker for it, and that's entirely my fault for not reading even further into it. I'm still wondering if the FBI routinely fails to notify people of criminal activity in the sphere of something that's requiring current State Deartment authorization, but that isn't in any way a condemnation of anyone involved. DACK FAYDEN fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 04:34
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Democrazy posted:They're getting quite a bit of flack on social media and I know many women personally who care, although much of this is umbrage that any man would speak at the conference. It looks to me like the flack has died down since the conference clarified their position. People angry that any man would speak at the conference are being a little disingenuous, imo. Bill Clinton spoke at the Emily's List conference last year, as the keynote speaker.
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Oct 18, 2017 04:49
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/920467129350148096
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Oct 18, 2017 04:59
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every trump admin official should be lined up and beaten with hammers
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Oct 18, 2017 05:03
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm sorry, are you saying that the abolition of serfdom and the eventual transition to our modern system of workers rights weren't radical and sometimes violent changes that re-ordered entire societies? I'm much more amenable to an "armalite and ballot box" strategy than most goons but the loving point of such a strategy is to have both radical and non-radical elements. I agree with what you are saying but how is this different from every other revolution? Zhou Enlai is a personal hero of mine and he's as close as you can get to "ballot box" on this particular axis when it comes to revolutionary communists. He was also incredibly well educated and had a clear theory and vision for what he wanted out of a revolution. It wasn't enough. Jiang Qing had a lot less vision and expertise but gently caress if her system didn't change things. I'll take the heart and mind of Zhou Enlai (even if it is naive) over the grit and realism of a Jiang Qing.
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Oct 18, 2017 05:08
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