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best korea's massive juche bombs are so powerful they cannot be safely tested: https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-korea-may-damaged-nuclear-053044887.html
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Oct 15, 2017 04:35
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maskenfreiheit posted:best korea's massive juche bombs are so powerful they cannot be safely tested: Conclusion: North Korea should make a Tsar Bomba to show that Juche power reaches all the way from the troposphere to the outer mantle.
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Oct 15, 2017 09:08
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Be an interesting thought experiment to estimate the cost of these warheads in starvation deaths.
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Oct 15, 2017 09:41
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WarpedNaba posted:Be an interesting thought experiment to estimate the cost of these warheads in starvation deaths. Mass starvation isn't a huge problem now in large part thanks to the black market. It's not great and may still be worse than Venezuela is, for example, but people are eating enough to survive. However, given that healthcare and social services are reported as pretty much nonexistent (combined with food these drive the massive black market) those resources could definitely have saved some lives. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 03:04
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Warbadger posted:Mass starvation isn't a huge problem now in large part thanks to the black market. It's not great and may still be worse than Venezuela is, for example, but people are eating enough to survive. However, given that healthcare and social services are reported as pretty much nonexistent (combined with food these drive the massive black market) those resources could definitely have saved some lives. Btw, North Korea has been undergoing what is effectively its own version of the NEP, and most of the larger provincial towns have their own legal private marketplaces.
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Oct 16, 2017 13:02
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Warbadger posted:However, given that healthcare and social services are reported as pretty much nonexistent (combined with food these drive the massive black market) those resources could definitely have saved some lives. healthcare is generally reported as "better than every other third world country" though. North Korea had the whole thing where it was weird because it was so poor and people still died younger than any first world country but that people made it to old age enough to have first world ish causes of death. (like heart disease, and some types of cancer that you basically only deal with if you live long enough to not die of disease or something)
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Oct 16, 2017 13:23
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:healthcare is generally reported as "better than every other third world country" though. North Korea had the whole thing where it was weird because it was so poor and people still died younger than any first world country but that people made it to old age enough to have first world ish causes of death. (like heart disease, and some types of cancer that you basically only deal with if you live long enough to not die of disease or something) According to the WHO average life expectancy is 70, which isn't that of a first world country (as you say), but also not indicative of a country without a healthcare system.
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Oct 16, 2017 13:37
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The difference between North Korea and a 'normal' third world country where it comes to healthcare, is that North Korea does have the infrastructure. In a 'normal' third world country you may have some western aid workers, some extremely expensive private clinics in the capital, and of course traditional healers. In North Korea though you do have a notionally free and notionally comprehensive national health service, staffed by nurses and doctors and specialists (though I expect their training may be a bit behind western standards). You have hospitals and doctors surgeries and rural health clinics throughout the country. You even have medical research centres (one of the stories in 'Nothing to Envy' is of a doctor who transferred to a medical research centre as she couldn't handle dealing with famine victims anymore). What they do not have though is a reliable source of western medicines, they do not have a reliable source of modern healthcare technology, and they do not have a reliable source of electricity.
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Oct 16, 2017 14:17
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The literally-no-functioning-healthcare-system was a thing during the famine days in the 90s (mostly due to a complete lack of any medication or supplies whatsoever) but before that it was up there with Cuba as far as "not the best supplied or equipped hospitals on the planet, but they exist and have all the fundamentals necessary to treat most conditions and are staffed by competent doctors who will accept and treat patients", and have been clawing their way back up to that standard in the post-famine era.
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Oct 16, 2017 14:26
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Ardennes posted:Btw, North Korea has been undergoing what is effectively its own version of the NEP, and most of the larger provincial towns have their own legal private marketplaces. They're heavily regulated officially, are a honeypot for bribes and police harassment unofficially, and the government has been periodically raging about closing them down. However without them North Korea would literally cease to exist (the official food distribution system is notional at best and 99% of North Korea's consumer goods come from unofficial trading with China). Irony alert: only women are legally allowed to work in/run jangmadang (the private markets), because North Korea is ridiculously sexist and men were forbidden from shirking "real" labor. The result is that women are now the anchor of the North Korean economy and the family breadwinner and the ripple effect in society is pretty extreme. In general the jangmadang are North Korea's weak point - traders pass along news, USB sticks full of South Korean TV shows, and cell phones that can communicate with the outside world via China. The North Korean police nibble at the edges (doing spot checks of media players checking for contraband, running cellular jamming stations near the Chinese border) but as long as the jangmadang exist, the government is not the most important thing in the people's lives, and for the future of the Kim cult, this is Very Very Bad. In case people are using this to celebrate a bright new day for North Korea or something, do remember how the NEP ended in the USSR. (Hint: Stalin was involved.) A good intro to the North Korean marketization: https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/304_96327.html Lum_ fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 17:04
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Why does North Korea engage in sabre rattling other countries? I'm guessing that they do it so that they can convice an idiot like Trump to threaten them back and appear as though they're in the right, but wouldn't this strategy eventually back fire on them?
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Oct 17, 2017 00:35
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Willo567 posted:Why does North Korea engage in sabre rattling other countries? For the same reason the US and SK conduct yearly exercises that are explicitly simulations of how to invade NK, and habitually fly bomber formations towards their airspace only to turn them back at the last minute.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:40
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Conspiratiorist posted:For the same reason the US and SK conduct yearly exercises that are explicitly simulations of how to invade NK, and habitually fly bomber formations towards their airspace only to turn them back at the last minute. I know that it's so that we don't mess with them, but they know that Trump is different from previous administations
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Oct 17, 2017 00:46
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Willo567 posted:Why does North Korea engage in sabre rattling other countries? Their internal propaganda is all based on the Kim's and the army protecting the people from the war mongering Yankees. If the US wasn't beating down the door in a way that's very visible, then the regime would have no real reason to exist. e: basically it's to provoke a response
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Oct 17, 2017 00:51
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Willo567 posted:Why does North Korea engage in sabre rattling other countries? I'm guessing that they do it so that they can convice an idiot like Trump to threaten them back and appear as though they're in the right, but wouldn't this strategy eventually back fire on them? North Korea does this in part because it's in their strategic interests to make the US look weak and to strain our relationships with their neighbors. There aren't a lot of ways for a country like North Korea to actually pull that off, but "we're doing a thing you told us not to do and that threatens your allies and we're not going to stop" is definitely an option. A lot of it is also purely for internal consumption, which is why the Kims have never been able to back down and it's expected that the US will be the adult in the room.
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Oct 17, 2017 00:51
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I still don't really see why "internal propaganda" requires actually doing things with the outside world, to be frank. The people in a position to get access to Chinese/Russian/South Korean border smuggling and media already inherently are the type who don't rely on internal propaganda, and the other people with no contact could hardly call bullshit.
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Oct 17, 2017 01:06
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Conspiratiorist posted:For the same reason the US and SK conduct yearly exercises that are explicitly simulations of how to invade NK, and habitually fly bomber formations towards their airspace only to turn them back at the last minute. Yes one day the US and South Korea decided to do this for no reason, and it definitely doesn't have anything to do with North Korea being a highly militarized proto-fascist state that has been routinely threatening to attack its neighbours for decades.
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Oct 17, 2017 01:33
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Fojar38 posted:Yes one day the US and South Korea decided to do this for no reason, and it definitely doesn't have anything to do with North Korea being a highly militarized proto-fascist state that has been routinely threatening to attack its neighbours for decades. Haven't the joint exercises gone on since shortly after the armistice though? You know, when South Korea was also a highly militarized proto-fascist dictatorship?
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Oct 17, 2017 01:45
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fishmech posted:Haven't the joint exercises gone on since shortly after the armistice though? You know, when South Korea was also a highly militarized proto-fascist dictatorship? Don't see why that would matter in 2017, where South Korea clearly no longer is.
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Oct 17, 2017 01:49
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fishmech posted:I still don't really see why "internal propaganda" requires actually doing things with the outside world I think that the world would get bored very quickly with n.korea if they weren't saber rattling, also I think that if they tried to fabricate a conflict entirely then people would have found out by now. It seems that external media and cell phones, while not common, are available enough that non-party types would have access to a small amount of outside news. Certainly enough that Trump hinting at a nuclear option would galvanise some amount of popular support for the regime. To be clear I don't think they developed nukes purely for internal propaganda, just the pointless and provocative stuff, the slap fights with Trump. The nukes are there to attempt to force the US out of the region.
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Oct 17, 2017 01:56
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Fojar38 posted:Don't see why that would matter in 2017, where South Korea clearly no longer is. It has quite a lot to do with what the exercises are about, namely, the fact that the countries are still at war.
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Oct 17, 2017 01:56
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fishmech posted:It has quite a lot to do with what the exercises are about, namely, the fact that the countries are still at war. You mean the war that was initiated via unprovoked North Korean attack?
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Oct 17, 2017 02:19
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Fojar38 posted:You mean the war that was initiated via unprovoked North Korean attack? It wasn't proto-fascist when it did that, it was pretty much a generic Stalinist state with a particularly reckless leader.
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Oct 17, 2017 02:28
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Fojar38 posted:being a highly militarized proto-fascist state that has been routinely threatening to attack its neighbours for decades. But enough about South Korea and Japan Fojar38 posted:You mean the war that was initiated via unprovoked North Korean attack? It was provoked by foreign invaders on Korean soil. That's like calling NVA and Viet Cong operations between 1956-1975 unprovoked attacks.
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Oct 17, 2017 03:51
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Fojar38 posted:Don't see why that would matter in 2017, where South Korea clearly no longer is. Well, I mean, it's not a dictatorship any more. Nominally. It's more like a Plutocracy now.
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Oct 17, 2017 05:24
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saw this:quote:The Northern Limit Line is the de facto maritime limit between North and South Korea off the west coast. The line is somewhat arbitrary and has never been agreed to by the DPRK and neither were they successful in having the line brought to negotiation. Needless to say it is considerably north of the latitude of the DMZ. info: https://scout.com/military/warrior/Article/The-US-Navy-Armada-Will-Return-to-Waters-Near-North-Korea-108854976
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Oct 17, 2017 05:32
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Lum_ posted:Irony alert: only women are legally allowed to work in/run jangmadang (the private markets), because North Korea is ridiculously sexist and men were forbidden from shirking "real" labor. The result is that women are now the anchor of the North Korean economy and the family breadwinner and the ripple effect in society is pretty extreme. In practice it is a bit more complicated than that. I have spoken with two of my now inlaws (yay!) who ran and assisted a shopfront in a jangmadang. In these markets it was less that men are 'legally allowed' to run a private enterprise, but most men in a lot of areas are essentially conscripted and are obligated to be present for appointed labor tasks and service. Attendance is effectively mandatory, and failure to appear can have tremendous consequences. The thing is, even if you were obligated to appear for your required services, you would only get paid if your required services could be satisfactorily pursued. Many men would end up in work projects in near constant or constant stalling and they would not be able to get paid, while also not being able to use their time for gainful work or employment or literally anything that could feed them. The rest of it is social custom. Women become the defacto heads of private low-level industry because of the present bias in the division of labor. Women are almost never allowed to progress up a certain level of personal financial or business autonomy, though. Running shops and personal industry in the jangmadang is fine. Past that, you must know your place and not interfere in established and male-run organizations which rarely go beyond tokendom.
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Oct 17, 2017 05:43
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Peven Stan posted:But enough about South Korea and Japan So they attacked the South to somehow get rid of the foreign Soviet puppet state headed by a cadre of ethnically korean Red Army officers shipped in and installed during a military occupation of the Northern half of Korea following a Soviet invasion in the last days of the Pacific war after the US effectively defeated Japan? I mean I guess it nearly worked, if only Mao hadn't propped them up. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 12:32
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Peven Stan posted:But enough about South Korea and Japan Ha Ha Ha! What a naive Dupe.
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Oct 18, 2017 03:02
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VideoGameVet posted:saw this: North Korea would most likely not retaliate. If they did, then it would lead to the end of their regime We have yet to see them make due on their threats to launch missiles near Guam, shoot down U.S. aircraft, or test a H-Bomb over the Pacific
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Oct 18, 2017 03:49
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North Korea would probably retaliate in some way if we actually attacked them. They wouldn't nuke Guam or anything and they'd probably try to do something proportional, but the DPRK isn't going to just sit there and eat missiles. That's not a line that can be safely crossed in this case. Odds are they'd try to retaliate against either US or ROK ships.
Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Oct 18, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 04:23
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Fair chance they'd consider any "limited strike" a precursor to an invasion, and act accordingly. Particularly in the context of increasingly aggressive American movements and political statements.
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Oct 18, 2017 04:25
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There's no such thing as a limited strike on North Korea or Iran. That's the mainstream Republican position and it's insane, this isn't like launching some cruise missiles at a suffocated and limping Iraq or hitting a Syrian air field in the middle of a devastating civil war. They will see it as an act of war and it'll spiral out of control pretty quick.
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Oct 18, 2017 18:31
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Yandat posted:There's no such thing as a limited strike on North Korea or Iran. That's the mainstream Republican position and it's insane, this isn't like launching some cruise missiles at a suffocated and limping Iraq or hitting a Syrian air field in the middle of a devastating civil war. They will see it as an act of war and it'll spiral out of control pretty quick. The entire premise is that the US can make a military strike in another country and then claim self-defense when that country strikes back.
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Oct 18, 2017 18:41
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Yandat posted:There's no such thing as a limited strike on North Korea or Iran. That's the mainstream Republican position and it's insane, this isn't like launching some cruise missiles at a suffocated and limping Iraq or hitting a Syrian air field in the middle of a devastating civil war. They will see it as an act of war and it'll spiral out of control pretty quick. I keep seeing Praying Mantis brought up as evidence that the USN could just destroy the entirety of Iran's navy and port facilities, and then sit back and watch them gnash their teeth impotently as long as then country itself isn't invaded 
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Oct 18, 2017 18:52
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Paradoxish posted:North Korea would probably retaliate in some way if we actually attacked them. They wouldn't nuke Guam or anything and they'd probably try to do something proportional, but the DPRK isn't going to just sit there and eat missiles. That's not a line that can be safely crossed in this case. Odds are they'd try to retaliate against either US or ROK ships. I probably misread the quote, but I was referring to the Navy crossing that line just as a show of force, not an attack
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Oct 18, 2017 18:58
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Hey let's talk about something else for awhile. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/17/asia/park-geun-hye-south-korea/index.html quote:
This has been big on South Korean news lately. To my great disgust and outrage. While in power Park Geun-hye regularly abused state power to go after political dissidents and put them in far worse conditions than this. But good loving luck finding any articles on CNN about the Gangjeong naval base, or anti-THAAD protests, or the horrific government response to Sewol, or arrests against anyone who defies the narrative of the great Red Menace of the North, or the attempts made by conservative governments to stack major television networks in their favor. MBC reporters just had a strike about this to force action, since without resignations the new government can't do anything. But no. Why would CNN discuss leftist issues like that, when they can wax poetic about the poor daughter of a dictator who has to clean her own room without the help of a maid for the first time in her life and is shocked, shocked at how hard it is. Disgusting. For what it's worth, the South Korean press is skeptical of the allegations. A cursory survey of Park Geun-hye's treatment versus similar criminals, let alone common ones, show that she is being treated fine. I'm mainly upset because this is a perfect example of how South Korean media will treat any idiotic thing American media says with serious gravity but they will never, ever show the slightest interest in any of the country's actual major domestic issues. One of the funnier points under discussion is confusion about who exactly the MH Group even is, and why they have any interest in human rights in the first place. They're Park Geun-hye's "international counsel", who don't have any lawyers in South Korea, so what they have to do with the case at all is sketchy to begin with. They can white knight for her in front of the United Nations and CNN, is all that I'm getting from it.
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Oct 19, 2017 12:18
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Out of those 4 topics my wife, who isn't at all interested in politics, has read random articles from the South Korean news on everything but anti-North Korean arrests from her news feed. THAAD protests in particular got a lot of coverage. Some articles parroted the bullshit Chinese line about it being meant to shoot down poo poo in China or that it was somehow a huge deal as a spy tool. The most common angle, though, played on nebulous fears of possible health concerns from the RADAR. The Naval base controversy had similar themes - a bit of "this is to counter China and thus bad!" astroturf-y stuff along with a bunch of articles on how it would taint the pristine island environment of Jeju. So I'd guess that yes, in fact, the Korean news covered those topics. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 12:40
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Some Guy TT posted:Hey let's talk about something else for awhile. It's all just slowly building up a case to get her amnesty, which she and the Samsung shithead will inevitably get.
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Oct 19, 2017 12:45
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https://twitter.com/Dalzell60/status/920997151924252672 https://twitter.com/Dalzell60/status/920997917141471232
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Oct 19, 2017 14:31
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