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MLS is fine
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Oct 19, 2017 18:13
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G-Hawk posted:It just isn't though. quote:A club’s entitlement to take part in a domestic league championship shall depend principally on sporting merit. seems pretty cut and dry. in no sense is membership in this domestic league championship based on sporting merit *gestures towards first 9 years of Toronto, next 9 years of Montreal*
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Oct 19, 2017 18:16
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Nostradingus posted:MLS is fine Interesting point. I think it's really bad.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:19
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XyrlocShammypants posted:The only reason outside country size, relative interest in the sport, financial interests and entanglements, fickle fans who haven’t supported a club for 80 years not sticking around after relegation, having big city teams get relegated because we’re a dumb league of bad coaches and players and gaining poo poo markets to promotion. It worked for Japan, and South Korea despite the similar lack of soccer culture in those countries.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:21
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Feels Villeneuve posted:It worked for Japan, and South Korea despite the similar lack of soccer culture in those countries. Those leagues don't attract the same kinds of big ("big") name players that MLS fans are crying out for. I'll admit that their national teams have done very well, albeit in a confederation possibly even worse than CONCACAF
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Oct 19, 2017 18:25
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Who the gently caress is crying out for a broken down David Villa or some poo poo. Those people are dumb and should not be listened to. I do not want a retirement league that pays lots of money for old frauds and skimps on American talent, we should want a league that is very good at developing our players. e) I checked and Australia, who have a similar awful soccer league to the US didn't even manage to automatically qualify from awful division AFC, that's really bad. They couldn't even beat Saudi Arabia. Maybe they should also implement pro/reg. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 18:26
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I for one hope that MLS keeps bringing in young South American players that aren't good enough for a top league in Europe. It'll require changing the roster rules so that there aren't a mandatory number of US/CA players in the league though.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:34
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Who the gently caress is crying out for a broken down David Villa or some poo poo. Those people are dumb and should not be listened to. I do not want a retirement league that pays lots of money for old frauds and skimps on American talent Uh most people agree that MLS teams shouldn't sign old broken down Euro stars just to put butts in seats, but Villa has been a dominant player in MLS and has scored 20 goals this season. TBH using him as an example makes me think you don't actually know much about MLS
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Oct 19, 2017 18:37
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camoseven posted:Uh most people agree that MLS teams shouldn't sign old broken down Euro stars just to put butts in seats, but Villa has been a dominant player in MLS and has scored 20 goals this season. TBH using him as an example makes me think you don't actually know much about MLS He is playing in a very very bad league full of awful teams and players.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:39
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I agree that I'm not thrilled to see old guys, but I think the majority of MLS fans get excited about seeing Villa, Schweinsteiger, etc. Beckham barely played and he managed to bring more attention and fan excitement than the league had ever seen before. The league is always going to listen to those fans, especially when they're the ones buying tickets and absurdly expensive shirts. The US is a unique place in how loving big we are geographically and how many sports are ahead of soccer on the pecking order. I really don't think that copying other leagues is a recipe for success because of that. MLS isn't perfect but it has to find its own way forward. Looking to someplace like Japan or even England would be a disaster, largely because pro/rel would 100% kill fan interest in the league, and fan engagement is ultimately the most important thing. No fans, no league; no league, no national team development.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:41
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Nostradingus posted:largely because pro/rel would 100% kill fan interest in the league, and fan engagement is ultimately the most important thing. No fans, no league; no league, no national team development. I'd be more interested to be honest. What does 1/2 of the league have to care about at this point?
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Oct 19, 2017 18:43
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Why do we think p/r would kill interest in the league when like half the teams looking to get an MLS franchise these days are because a bunch of assholes decided they wanted to get in on the tifo action at their local minor league club
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Oct 19, 2017 18:50
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Soccer in the US has never been short of good ideas. Tell me, who can have a sustainable nationwide D1 league up and running with teams, players, TV distribution, etc. by next season? I think MLS is the only option right now. I don't think MLS owners are going to blow up the league any time soon. If that ever changes, let me know.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:50
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has anyone looked at what happens to MLS attendance when teams are bad for a season or 3? What do you think happens when they're relegated? edit: this isn't specific to MLS, its true in all U.S. leagues. People don't go to games if their team is bad. G-Hawk fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 18:54
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G-Hawk posted:has anyone looked at what happens to MLS attendance when teams are bad for a season or 3? What do you think happens when they're relegated? I mean if the stereotype is that MLS fans don't actually care about the on-field product is true it shouldn't matter if Toronto FC is playing NYCFC or if they're playing the Carolina Railhawks or whatever
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Oct 19, 2017 18:58
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Look at the ratings for when small-market teams make MLS Cup, like KC vs. RSL a couple years ago. Imagine those ratings when MLS Cup is Casper, Wyoming vs. Edmond, Oklahoma. I know ratings aren't everything but I'm happy with a system that ensures teams come from cities with people in them
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Oct 19, 2017 18:58
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Feels Villeneuve posted:He is playing in a very very bad league full of awful teams and players. You called him "broken down" and a "fraud", so then I point out that he's actually been very, very good, and you say it doesn't matter? You could have used Pirlo as an example of a terrible signing (he's even on the same team as Villa!), but you didn't which makes it clear you don't actually watch MLS and just enjoy talking poo poo. So thanks for your input, but maybe go back to the pro wrestling threads cause frankly we have enough know-nothing poo poo talkers passing through here already.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:58
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Gigi Galli posted:I'd be more interested to be honest. What does 1/2 of the league have to care about at this point? Players and coaches? Their jobs. Fans? Spite and hoping some of the kids get a chance to impress. Mostly spite. I am reminded of this: https://twitter.com/MLSist/status/896894361597759488 Anyway, for me I mostly think that P/R does not solve the problems that most people pushing for it think it does and accordingly there is no reason to blow up something that kinda works in a deeply hostile environment in order to pursue it. It's great if you already HAVE too many competitive teams and need a way to sort them out (though it is not the only way to do so), but it's not going to make people start more teams in places that don't actually care about the sport enough to make those teams sustainable even when the team is bad, and it's not going to make people care about the sport that don't already care. Even the EPL and Liga MX draw niche audiences in the US, and "relegation six-pointers" are the only EPL games that draw US TV audiences almost as bad as MLS games, which makes a certain amount of sense because they feature players who are almost as bad as MLS players. On the other hand, both Peter Wilt and various CFL owners are supposedly starting leagues in the next couple of years which are explicitly "open to adopting P/R when they get big enough", so we'll get to see how this works out in the real world instead of having endless pointless slapfights on the Internet. Surely one or both of these leagues can overthrow MLS and take its audience and revenue by the sheer compelling power of Orthodox League Structure, no? Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 18:59
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Feels Villeneuve posted:I mean if the stereotype is that MLS fans don't actually care about the on-field product is true it shouldn't matter if Toronto FC is playing NYCFC or if they're playing the Carolina Railhawks or whatever i don't think that stereotype is true at all
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Oct 19, 2017 18:59
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Dallan Invictus posted:It's great if you already HAVE too many competitive teams and need a way to sort them out (though it is not the only way to do so), but it's not going to make people start more teams in places that don't actually care about the sport enough to make those teams sustainable even when the team is bad, and it's not going to make people care about the sport that don't already care. one of the entire points of the J-League moving to their current structure was to encourage people to start professional soccer clubs. You know what discourages people from starting pro soccer teams? A $100 million dollar franchise fee.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:02
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camoseven posted:You called him "broken down" and a "fraud", so then I point out that he's actually been very, very good, and you say it doesn't matter? You could have used Pirlo as an example of a terrible signing (he's even on the same team as Villa!), but you didn't which makes it clear you don't actually watch MLS and just enjoy talking poo poo. So thanks for your input, but maybe go back to the pro wrestling threads cause frankly we have enough know-nothing poo poo talkers passing through here already. Do you think me picking an old player who has actually been successful in MLS has anything to do with the broader point of MLS's drawing value being focused on old past-their-prime players to the detriment of US talent, or are you just trying to make a zinger
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Oct 19, 2017 19:03
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Feels Villeneuve posted:one of the entire points of the J-League moving to their current structure was to encourage people to start professional soccer clubs. You know what discourages people from starting pro soccer teams? A $100 million dollar franchise fee. On the other hand it encourages people to start clubs who have the financial capability of keeping those clubs going and a long term plan. You know what leagues don't have that barrier to entry? USL, NASL, etc. You know where clubs routinely fold after a couple seasons? USL, NASL, etc.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:04
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G-Hawk posted:On the other hand it encourages people to start clubs who have the financial capability of keeping those clubs going and a long term plan I think you have a far more generous outlook on people who will spend $100 million dollars on a team in a league that loses lots of money than you probably should.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:07
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Feels Villeneuve posted:I think you have a far more generous outlook on people who will spend $100 million dollars on a team in a league that loses lots of money than you probably should. and yet in the multi decade history of soccer leagues and teams in the United States, MLS is the only league that has ever managed to be stable, and majority of its clubs have been stable. Every single other league has been a mess, teams folding every year. With the exception of Chivas USA which was a dumb as poo poo idea, MLS hasn't had a team fold in 15 years. USL has multiple teams fold every season. Regardless of idealized league structures, MLS has found a way to stablize and slowly improve. Its quite easy to point out problems with it and ways it could possibly be better, but I think the obsession with promotion and relegation loses perspective over the fact that if MLS were to cease to exist, there wouldn't be a similar league with promotion and relegation replacing it. Instead you'd get leagues that look exactly like NASL/USL and every league before them, unstable messes that have absolutely no ability to financially sustain real youth development. How is that productive? edit: TLDR MLS critics severely underrate the value of stability which is pretty much the foundational goal of MLS. MLS clubs ARE developing youth academies, right now. The only reason they can do that is they are stable. MLS fan bases are becoming more entrenched, passionate. History and real rivalries are developing. Not withstanding MLS often being hamfisted and creating artificial bullshit, the stability of MLS is allowing everything you want to develop, slowly. G-Hawk fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 19:12
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Do you think me picking an old player who has actually been successful in MLS has anything to do with the broader point of MLS's drawing value being focused on old past-their-prime players to the detriment of US talent, or are you just trying to make a zinger The point is that MLS's drawing value is not focused on old past-their-prime players to the detriment of US talent, and you would know that if you actually paid any attention to the league at all.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:12
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Do you think me picking an old player who has actually been successful in MLS has anything to do with the broader point of MLS's drawing value being focused on old past-their-prime players to the detriment of US talent, or are you just trying to make a zinger The more useful critique of your point is that it is massively out of date: there are basically three people in the entire league that fit that stereotype today ("old, past-their-prime, and only acquired to sell tickets"), and only one of them has actually been bad (and he is retiring). The new hotness for international signings is "twentysomething fringe players from better leagues or tiny South Americans looking for a bigger stage" - and that's actually worked out rather well. Also you're not supposed to keep US talent here anymore, remember? All decent or promising US players are required to be sold to European teams at the earliest opportunity, and stay there for their entire relevant careers, regardless of the playing time they get, what they might actually want as people, or think is best for their career, because That's What's Best For The National Team. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 19:15
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The Pro/Rel argument in US soccer is the same as gun control in this stupid country... it goes in circles solves nothing and pisses everyone off for different reasons. No one ever brings up a new or interesting point, they just re-hash the same arguments continuously and no one gets convinced one way or the other.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:16
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G-Hawk posted:and yet in the multi decade history of soccer leagues and teams in the United States, MLS is the only league that has ever managed to be stable, and majority of its clubs have been stable. There's a term for a money-losing investment scheme which stays afloat by finding more and more dumb rich people to buy into it, and I'm pretty sure it's not "stable". ' e) the charitable thing to say is that they're loss-leading until they land a big money TV deal but there's no guarantee they can get this, and no guarantee that they can continue to get people to buy in indefinitely Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 19:18
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Dallan Invictus posted:Players and coaches? Their jobs. Fans? Spite and hoping some of the kids get a chance to impress. Mostly spite I meant the fans, sorry I was unclear. Like you linked, I would hope that players and managers want to win every game they play in.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:19
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Dallan Invictus posted:The more useful critique of your point is that it is massively out of date: there are basically three people in the entire league that fit that stereotype today ("old, past-their-prime, and only acquired to sell tickets"), and only one of them has actually been bad (and he is retiring). The new hotness for international signings is "twentysomething fringe players from better leagues or tiny South Americans looking for a bigger stage" - and that's actually worked out rather well. It was brought up specifically because someone said MLS fans were "crying out" for big name marquee players from overseas.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:20
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Feels Villeneuve posted:There's a term for a money-losing investment scheme which stays afloat by finding more and more dumb rich people to buy into it, and I'm pretty sure it's not "stable". Well, good thing they've been taking positive steps to be less reliant on expansion fees! This includes: - building their own stadiums to increase revenues and reduce gameday expenses - acquiring big name players to increase TV ratings and tv revenue (expansion itself will help increase these TV deals by giving the league a more national footprint) - developing more young players they can potentially sell for significant transfer fees They are building a league capable of sustaining itself financially and are way ahead of where they were 10 much less 20 years ago. Theres a reason why people are lining up to buy expansion teams quicker than Garber can give them out. quote:e) the charitable thing to say is that they're loss-leading until they land a big money TV deal but there's no guarantee they can get this, and no guarantee that they can continue to get people to buy in indefinitely G-Hawk fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 19:23
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The reason people are lining up to pay $100 million to become a sports franchise owner in a money losing league is that rich people are very stupid and like spending lots of money on status symbols like sports teams. I can't believe you've lived in America for this long and not realized this.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:26
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That does actually make me wonder which, if any, MLS teams are profitable. Are there any?
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Oct 19, 2017 19:27
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Dallan Invictus posted:The new hotness for international signings is "twentysomething fringe players from better leagues or tiny South Americans looking for a bigger stage" - and that's actually worked out rather well. this is correct and it is good and is the future of the league
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Oct 19, 2017 19:29
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https://twitter.com/gay4soccer/status/921061038451253253
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Oct 19, 2017 19:29
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Gigi Galli posted:That does actually make me wonder which, if any, MLS teams are profitable. Are there any? probably yes, though its all estimates. Forbes has about half of the clubs being profitable in this estimate from 2016, though that doesnt account for debts. https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriss...2/#5f753b6d4d6e
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Oct 19, 2017 19:31
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Gigi Galli posted:That does actually make me wonder which, if any, MLS teams are profitable. Are there any? No, even the Timbers lose money. But its largely a tax scam
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Oct 19, 2017 19:34
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Hey, here's something about this league that's not another loving pro/rel argument: Manchester Yankees probably playing in the Mets' stadium for the playoffs. Avoided only if NYC gets the #2 seed (could happen) or the Yankees don't make it to the World Series (please happen, because gently caress the Yankees).
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Oct 19, 2017 19:35
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in terms of profitability long term the holy grail is increasing TV ratings to increase TV deals. Expansion is actually a big part of this, getting more people invested in the league. The problem is MLS doesnt need more soccer fans to get higher ratings, they need more MLS fans. Probably the best way to do that is for more people to have a local team they get attached to. If you just want to watch the best soccer, you turn on premier league, not MLS. So expansion is pretty critical to increasing ratings. So are stadiums, and attendance. Combine that with acquiring better players (such as the south americans mentioned by other posters), a few big names (the scorned washed up euros), and increasing youth development so that MLS has more young and exciting stars, as well as time so that people who attended MLS matches at age 15 are still watching at age 35, and thats pretty much the path to financial success.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:36
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MLS: come for the debates, stay for the soccer!
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Oct 19, 2017 19:38
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