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Pluskut Tukker posted:I find this and your whole argument bizzarre, because despite the distinction you make between referendums organised in more or less democratic states and those in totalitarian states, the net effect of referendums on any issue of secession/independence or otherwise major politicial importance still is a perfect way to create or strengthen divisions in society , and pick a winner between the sides not through a process where the rights of citizens including minorities are guaranteed, but through one where only the size of the divided groups matters. And what makes this worse is that in the Crimea specifically, getting reannexed to Russia for the Crimean Tatars implied entirely predictable renewed persecution, while with the 'little green men' around the outcome of the referendum was a foregone conclusion. So of course they didn't participate - their participation would have helped legitimise the fundamentally illegitimate, and I don't understand at all why you think they should have. I'll adress the bolded parts, as those are the primary points of disagreement. In the case of the Crimean Referendum: do you really think that if Crimean Tatars participated that would have legitimised the referendum? Or rather than that, which do you think is what made the Crimean referendum illegitimate: a low participation rate, or falsified and manipulated results? My argument here is that the former is insignificant in the face of the latter. If the Crimean referendum had an 80% participation rate and in the end the results were falsified to force a pro-Russia outcome, that is just as illegitimate if the same had happened with a 20% participation rate. With regards to Brexit and Catalonia: no, the way you fight to remain part of the EU and Spain is not to sit out, it's to go vote for remaining in the EU and Spain. You are given a way to fight for remaining, and by giving that up you're doing yourself a disservice, and you're doing democratic society a disservice.
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Oct 20, 2017 11:37
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Namarrgon posted:What does an "illegal referendum" even mean? I suppose it means that there is no weight to the outcome of it (from perspective of Madrid-Spain), not that the physical act of the ballots is against the law. The legalistic interpretation is that it's sort of both, since the Catalan regional government didn't have the legal competences to organize such a referendum. The officials in the Catalan government are therefore being prosecuted for using the powers of their office and the resources provided to it by the taxpayer for a purpose that wasnot provided for by the law. The police were sent in on orders of a judge to stop public offices and computers from being used to carry out a referendum, as well as the ballot boxes obviously. So the physical organization of the referendum was also illegal, and so the police decided to use force against anyone standing in their way of executing the court order. (Obviously the size of the police force present would probably have been determined by Madrid and political influences on what happened cannot be ruled out - but shutting down the referendum at least on paper happened according to the rule of law). YF-23 posted:I'll adress the bolded parts, as those are the primary points of disagreement. I think that if the Crimean Tatars had participated in the referendum, other Crimean politicians could use that as an argument against them each and every time they complained about their treatment (which they don't get to do anymore, since their assembly has been shut down and their leaders fled, jailed, murdered or disappeared). Also, with regard to Russia's foreign diplomacy it would be much easier to sell the fait accompli of Crimean annexation as acceptable to other powers if Crimean Tatars could be portrayed as having consented to the process. Discourse matters and the Crimean Tatar boycott contributes to help keep existing as a generally accepted truth in the West the fact the the annexation was illegitimate. On the second point, I fundamentally disagree. It's precisely because referendums create fights, to take your metaphor literally, that they're so dangerous. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Oct 20, 2017 |
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Oct 20, 2017 11:39
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YF-23 posted:With regards to Brexit and Catalonia: no, the way you fight to remain part of the EU and Spain is not to sit out, it's to go vote for remaining in the EU and Spain. You are given a way to fight for remaining, and by giving that up you're doing yourself a disservice, and you're doing democratic society a disservice. Don’t you understand that participating in such a fight legitimises it and is part of the secessionist attempt in itself? If I lived in Catalonia and was against independence I wouldn’t participate in any unsanctioned referendum because id recognise that doing so would support the independence process regardless of the result.
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Oct 20, 2017 11:43
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YF-23 posted:I'll adress the bolded parts, as those are the primary points of disagreement. Say we held a totally legal and legit referendum and only ten people voted, cause everyone else in the country decided they really didn't like the system or the politician organizing the referendum or it was raining that day. Would that referendum with 0.00001% participation still be as legitimate as it'd be if 80% of the population voted? If not, where do you draw the line? Nevermind that you're saying it doesn't matter if they vote or not, the referendum is just as illegitimate regardless. So why the gently caress would they bother to vote?
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Oct 20, 2017 11:44
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GaussianCopula posted:Did you read my post? If they tried to prevent the police from enacting the law the situation changes. I'm talking about peaceful people who went into the polling station, voted, and then left. Find me the law that states "throwing papers into boxes is illegal in catalonia".
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Oct 20, 2017 11:50
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Truga posted:Find me the law that states "throwing papers into boxes is illegal in catalonia". I’m not punching you your face just happens to be in the way of my fist.
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Oct 20, 2017 11:53
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Things like this are what makes me distrust the independence movement.
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Oct 20, 2017 11:55
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The people throwing papers into boxes aren't being prosecuted though?
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Oct 20, 2017 12:11
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Just beaten by the cops
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Oct 20, 2017 12:14
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VitalSigns posted:Just beaten by the cops they didn't pick up the can
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Oct 20, 2017 12:43
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Truga posted:Find me the law that states "throwing papers into boxes is illegal in catalonia". The Generalitat sent the Catalonian police to stop an "illegal" referendum in 2014 (about transgenic agriculture, about paying national debt and a couple of other things) and 10 people were charged with disobedience for organising it, so I assume it's there. No police charges because the organisers gave up their ballots and urns peacefully, though.
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Oct 20, 2017 12:55
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Yeah, but rounding up organisers isn't the same as beating up a thousand people because they showed up to vote on something. The only way that could possibly make sense is, you're afraid the result of that referendum will give legitimacy to your opponent, legality notwithstanding, in which case, and since repression is the last thing in a long line of fuckups, well, you've done hosed up if that's your reason.
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Oct 20, 2017 13:03
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Fat Samurai posted:I really don't understand this argument, and have seen it a lot. Why does the rest of Spain get to vote? In the hypothetical case that 100% of the Catalans want to leave, and 70% of the Spaniards don't want Catalonia to leave, how is forcing Catalonia to stay a democracy? 1) a country wide referendum would be legal in Spain, if things are not done in a legal way then what's to stop your neighbour to create his own country? (obvious hair pulling but you get the idea, things have to be legal to have some value) 2) a democratic vote does not mean the result would be democratic (imagine a referendum about killing all red hair which gets popular support, it's not legal but hey the people decided so it's democratic...not. That's just not how it works) 3) a country is based on several areas some richer some poorer, usually national unity makes it unnecessary to make sure regions don't secede every time it suits them (just like one does not decide when to pay taxes only when one wants to actually be part of society), that's sort of the base for a democratic country so the catalan desire for independence is wanting to undermine a democracy in the name of nationalism, by itself it can not be democratic (nationalism never is). 4) Catalan independence would impact whole of spain, why shouldn't people be allowed to express their opinion about it, also what about Catalans who do not live in catalonia (as a reminder the referendum held there was not legal nor recognised and there were dead people voting so why should that vote even be acknowledge)? There is a reason why only populists and extremists are calling for an Europe of regions, it's definitely not to make a better democracy
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Oct 20, 2017 13:08
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Truga posted:Yeah, but rounding up organisers isn't the same as beating up a thousand people because they showed up to vote on something. If you think the Mossos wouldn't have beaten up those guys if they had "defended their right to choose and protest peacefully", I have a couple of videos for you. My point isn't defending the police charges, by the way, my point is that the Generalitat are a bunch of hypocritical bastards and that them crying "how can it be illegal to vote" should be answered with custard pies in their faces.
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Oct 20, 2017 13:12
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Truga posted:Yeah, but rounding up organisers isn't the same as beating up a thousand people because they showed up to vote on something. They were obstructing the judicial orders being carried out by the police.Pacific resistance is still resistance which is the reason why a 1000 instances of medical attention happened, 5 people were admitted to a hospital and no one is in a hospital today ( following data of the Catalonian health service) instead of getting tear gassed or water cannon'd, police procedure in those cases is drag and drop and stick. The optics are bad, but they are to be expected when you get in the way of judicial orders and try to face down the UIP(or Brimo) and they are lucky in some way , the Catalonian gov has been extremely petty in the past beating protesters and then prosecuting them to full extent of the law, some poor fuckers ate a 3 year long term in 2011.Spanish just went for the jordis. Mind you there's better ways to stop the referendum and this was the worst , but you can't expect to participate in illegal acts, helped them organise them, use public money and material to pay for them, breach confidential data, and resist the judicial mandate executed by the police and then go around crying about extraordinary violence after the gossos spent years brutalizing people. Resisting police in any way , in non violent ways for far more serving causes has always been answered the same way in Spain.Imagine the moment they give an actual judicial mandate. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Oct 20, 2017 |
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Oct 20, 2017 13:21
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Yeah, I'm not in any way going to defend the Catalan govt, because I'm sure they're just as poo poo. Just uh, don't send police to beat up people participating in an "illegal" vote. Just ignore it. If you're so afraid of an illegal vote, you've already hosed up hard enough that nothing you do from here on out is going to make things better.
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Oct 20, 2017 13:36
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Truga posted:Yeah, I'm not in any way going to defend the Catalan govt, because I'm sure they're just as poo poo. Just uh, don't send police to beat up people participating in an "illegal" vote. Just ignore it. If you're so afraid of an illegal vote, you've already hosed up hard enough that nothing you do from here on out is going to make things better. I think everyone's on the same page here, or so I hope. e: Yes I realize that guy above is explaining why people got beat up. What he says is accurate, but I hope we can agree that ignoring it and prosecuting these people after the fact would have been much better than sending in the cops to inevitably beat up protesters. Elman fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Oct 20, 2017 |
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Oct 20, 2017 13:45
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Truga posted:Yeah, I'm not in any way going to defend the Catalan govt, because I'm sure they're just as poo poo. Just uh, don't send police to beat up people participating in an "illegal" vote. Just ignore it. If you're so afraid of an illegal vote, you've already hosed up hard enough that nothing you do from here on out is going to make things better. Oh yeah, I mean I'm not giving norders, otherwise I would have told to ignore that vote and keep going.Problem is im not in power. Elman posted:e: Yes I realize that guy above is explaining why people got beat up. What he says is accurate, but I hope we can agree that ignoring it and prosecuting these people after the fact would have been much better than sending in the cops to inevitably beat up protesters. Well now they are doing both.jordis got slapped with precautionary prison and that's for the 25 and 26 of September.Going to be bitterly funny when they start prosecuting for the 1-O Also it's important to note that there's more actors in this loving drama and neither side is homogeneous , the police was sent by a judge of the Catalonian courts, against the strategy of Rajoy of sit down and do nothing. The Cuixart and Sanchez (?) detention orders were sent by the national audience, so there are a lot of cooks in this poo poo souffle. The reaction to the referendum is both legal and political , because the Catalonian government started doing illegal things so instead of having to deal with only rajoys plans now they have the bureaucracy of justice on them. Rajoy can take the whole do nothing and ignore it, cops and courts will grind anything because otherwise they get hit with expulsion from the judiciary corps, and thats a loving sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet gig. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Oct 20, 2017 |
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Oct 20, 2017 13:54
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I think the nature of the vote (that one of the options is essentially irreversible) makes the additional requirements more democratic.
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Oct 20, 2017 14:06
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"It's bad because it's illegal" as an argument tho...  It's such a good argument because it always works. It succeeds every time in making the conversation unbearable banality and then you win.
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Oct 20, 2017 14:46
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Truga posted:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, are you saying you have a problem with that? With self-determination but only if people do something good with it? No, I don't have a problem with that, but then bringing up the principle of self-determination is pointless.
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Oct 20, 2017 15:26
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lollontee posted:"It's bad because it's illegal" as an argument tho... I don't recall anyone saying or implying "bad because illegal" over the last few pages, so lay off.
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Oct 20, 2017 16:56
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Dance Officer posted:I don't recall anyone saying or implying "bad because illegal" over the last few pages, so lay off. Hmm, maybe that's because you don't wabt to recall?
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Oct 20, 2017 17:47
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As always when faced with a difficult option, Mariano Rajoy has chosen to gently caress it up even more.Everybody gets sacked the gently caress out in Cataluña, generalitat still exists as an entity, elections in january, no ban on independence parties. Just a poo poo show.
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Oct 21, 2017 12:58
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The only thing Rajoy had to do was nothing. Puidgemont was clearly bluffing, did not have EU support and at this point just ignoring and pretending nothing happened would have led to exactly that; nothing happening.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:08
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https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/921710581421309952 That's the time when popcorn should be ready.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:15
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What a loving disgrace.From now on we'll have to endure any loving cuñado mesetario that wants to suspend self governance for whatever reason. I give up in this loving country.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:29
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On the bright side, this is still going better than the Kurdish attempt, so far. Independence. Not even once.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:42
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Arguably it's still going better than Brexit too, though mostly because this one isn't actually happening.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:43
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I'm not even mad.Just numb. It always gets worse
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Oct 21, 2017 13:44
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YF-23 posted:
Situation is nothing like the Brexit vote. No matter how the Catalans voted the referendum lacked legitimacy outright due to the lack of voter rolls. People turned up to polling stations with ballot papers they printed out at home and we have no idea who voted or any guarantee that people only cast single ballot. Brexit vote was conducted with complete fairness so it made sense to participate in a plebiscite which one could have confidence would fairly represent the view of the UK electorate on the matter of its EU membership, something which can't remotely be said of the Catalan referendum.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:46
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Will Spain send in the tanks tonight?
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Oct 21, 2017 13:50
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Brexit was sponsored by the government while the catalan referendum wasn't, it was pretty obvious (at least for some people) that the referendum would lack all the proper guarantees granted by the law. The actual results and their accuracy/validity (or lack of) are not that important honestly.
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Oct 21, 2017 13:56
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And in six months we will have bigger support for pro-independence parties and the entire thing will start up again. Fun.
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Oct 21, 2017 14:06
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https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/921745447286435840 Pirates on track to beat the CSSD who look are on track for a crushingly bad result, worst since 93 - looks like attempts to play to anti-migrant sentiment to halt the bleed may not have worked too well with the far right SPD looking to finish third on latest numbers.
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Oct 21, 2017 16:40
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kustomkarkommando posted:Pirates on track to beat the CSSD who look are on track for a crushingly bad result, worst since 93 - looks like attempts to play to anti-migrant sentiment to halt the bleed may not have worked too well with the far right SPD looking to finish third on latest numbers. 50 seats down to 15 would be a pretty crushing result for the CSSD. The centre-left really is crumbling across most of Europe. It badly needs more Corbyns/Melenchons to pull it economically to the left again and re-energize it. That would be a good result for the pirate party, though. Do they have any ideology beyond internet stuff?
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Oct 21, 2017 17:18
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Blut posted:50 seats down to 15 would be a pretty crushing result for the CSSD. The centre-left really is crumbling across most of Europe. It badly needs more Corbyns/Melenchons to pull it economically to the left again and re-energize it.  but also simplifying red tape and entrepreneurship. So kind of centrist overall with bits of socialist and (classical) liberal ideas I'd say. At least based on what they say, I've no idea what they've been actually up to: https://www.pirati.cz/program/strana.html
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Oct 21, 2017 17:32
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Namarrgon posted:The only thing Rajoy had to do was nothing. Puidgemont was clearly bluffing, did not have EU support and at this point just ignoring and pretending nothing happened would have led to exactly that; nothing happening. Yeah but have you considered Rajoy is an idiot with a fragile ego and a pathological need to crush the traitors because they don't agree with his superior opinions?
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Oct 21, 2017 18:54
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Pedro De Heredia posted:With self-determination but only if people do something good with it? No, I don't have a problem with that, but then bringing up the principle of self-determination is pointless. Well, that's how democracy works. If it doesn't look after all its members, it's not a democracy, it's just a tyranny of the majority, isn't it?
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Oct 21, 2017 19:02
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Tyranny of the majority is the basic condition of direct democracy, which is why systems are built up to limit the impact and create institutions that resist that tendency.
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Oct 21, 2017 19:03
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