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Comrade Gorbash posted:I'm personally pretty understanding to the idea that people have to swallow poo poo they don't like from an employer because they have to eat, and our system puts people in lovely positions where they have to make that choice. But Price has a long history of calling on people to stand up and speak out and take risks to stop this kind of behavior, of demanding more advocacy from people in the industry, and also being really unsympathetic to the defense she proceeded to make there. But when it was her turn to do that, she ducked and covered. That she was apparently aware of a lot of this other Paizo stuff coming out now, said nothing then, yet still proceeded to make the sort of statements she did and upsell Paizo's progressivism while there leaves a bad taste in my mouth, personally. Your link specifically says she wants people to take it up with Paizo, and not with her. I think you're being uncharitable. You wanted her to speak out, heck a lot of paizo people should have been speaking out, but paizo has turned into mini-white wolf with social issues. And she's left the company, and is now speaking out. Not quitting her job and publicly flame the company doesn't mean she was on the wrong, she was trying to get them to direct it to the company rather than via her. She's even said how she was pressured at work not to speak out on things. Let's all enjoy some puppies  PST fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 16:26
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PST posted:Your link specifically says she wants people to take it up with Paizo, and not with her. I think you're being uncharitable. You wanted her to speak out, heck a lot of paizo people should have been speaking out, but paizo has turned into mini-white wolf with social issues. And she's left the company, and is now speaking out. That Paizo had so explicitly warned her off does change how I view the situation a bit, but again it's hard to square that with other statements where she's called people out who made essentially the same defense. EDIT: To give a clearer comparison, let's talk about the post from Ted Fauster up thread. I personally think it's a pretty incredible thing for him to have done, and I also wouldn't have blamed him if his response was "this sucks but I have to eat." But the decision to leave is very explicitly the kind of decision Price has called on people to make. So bluntly it really feels like a case of "do as I say, not as I do" when put into context. Basically, I don't blame Price for having to make the decision to stick around because like all of us she has bills that need to be paid to live. I do have issues with that decision being coupled with the performative advocacy she engaged it at the same time. I would link this more directly but searching for stuff on Twitter is rear end and I'm not on my home computer. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 16:36
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I'm not Frank Mentzer old but i do remember the pop culture of the 1970s and 1980s, and while that sort of come-on was kind of common back then, it was regularly called out as being creepy and inappropriate even by disco-era standards of behavior. The guy with the open shirt and medallion going "Hey baby, what's your sign? You come here often? Aw, c'mon baby, don't be like that, here let me get you a drink" was a regular figure of fun and ridicule - they were called lounge lizards and pretty ceaselessly mocked, especially as the eighties moved on and their routine didn't.
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Oct 19, 2017 16:37
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Isn't there a Pathfinder adventure where they have inbred trolls or something as an early encounter? That's one thing that bothered me in the new Shadow of the Demon Lord supplement: an option to play as an inbred character.
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Oct 19, 2017 16:37
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Serf posted:Isn't there a Pathfinder adventure where they have inbred trolls or something as an early encounter? Ogres, literally based on the Hills have eyes hillybilly mutants.
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Oct 19, 2017 16:39
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Gamers of color talk about Chult and the Tomb of Annihilation. https://trib.al/mSsFhx1
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Oct 19, 2017 17:35
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My favourite ('favourite') bit from that article: https://twitter.com/potatocubed/status/920920392264450048
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Oct 19, 2017 17:55
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potatocubed posted:My favourite ('favourite') bit from that article: (Hypothetical WotC retrospective meeting) OK, so we had two choices: Choice A: Bring in consultants with experience (no Mike, I'm not talking about Pundit or [redacted]) and background in Black/African culture so we can get people who know what they're talking about. Give them creative control to reshape Chult in a way that's nuanced and empowering, rather than a stereotype of how white colonists/people today envision 'the noble savages'. Win accolades for the brand being forward-thinking and inclusive in an industry that suffers from a critical lack of both in its major players (for gently caress's sake guys, Blood in the Chocolate won an ENnie - the bar's so low we can't miss it!). Choice B: Do none of the above. Instead, we go our own way, double-down on stereotypes (portraying them in a way that white people like/won't notice), use half-assed arguments to defend ourselves, and ultimately fall back on the 'RPGs are a niche hobby' approach despite every other person on Earth associating D&D with RPGs (don't forget to miss the low bar while we're at it). Hmm. Should've gone with A.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:17
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At this point the fact that FFG is probably the most progressive TTRPG company simply by doing absolutely nothing on that front is really depressing. EDIT: Unless I've missed some bullshit thing on their part, which is entirely possible.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:22
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Comrade Gorbash posted:At this point the fact that FFG is probably the most progressive TTRPG company simply by doing absolutely nothing on that front is really depressing. I think Green Ronin is worth mentioning, especially Blue Rose.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:24
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Comrade Gorbash posted:At this point the fact that FFG is probably the most progressive TTRPG company simply by doing absolutely nothing on that front is really depressing. To be fair, FFG has been rightfully praised for the extremely diverse character designs and world-building of Netrunner.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:33
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Peas and Rice posted:I think Green Ronin is worth mentioning, especially Blue Rose. admanb posted:To be fair, FFG has been rightfully praised for the extremely diverse character designs and world-building of Netrunner. I do recall there being a thing involving someone at Green Ronin, but my memory of it is that it wasn't harassment or similar issues, just that the person involved was an rear end in a top hat. Also it was quite some time ago.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:37
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Comrade Gorbash posted:At this point the fact that FFG is probably the most progressive TTRPG company simply by doing absolutely nothing on that front is really depressing. One thing I always thought was a nice touch was that FFG went out of their way to illustrate female guardsmen throughout the Only War 40K line. Netrunner's art seems fairly diverse as well. I don't know if I'd call them a standout beacon of progressivism but they at least seem able to not shoot themselves in both feet before swallowing them. Oh, and they got rid of the "Banzai!" thing at L5R events so that's nice. Peas and Rice posted:I think Green Ronin is worth mentioning, especially Blue Rose. On the other hand, doesn't the current iteration of Blue Rose still have a culture of magic gypsy analogues called the "Roamers" with all that entails? That bit always stuck out like a sore thumb to me, like someone just had to have their magical free-spirited wanderers who love singing and dancing and get accused of thievery and evil magic because you just have to man, you just have to.
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Oct 19, 2017 18:37
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Kai Tave posted:On the other hand, doesn't the current iteration of Blue Rose still have a culture of magic gypsy analogues called the "Roamers" with all that entails? That bit always stuck out like a sore thumb to me, like someone just had to have their magical free-spirited wanderers who love singing and dancing and get accused of thievery and evil magic because you just have to man, you just have to. Huh, yeah, I guess so. Has anyone brought this to their attention? They seem VERY responsive to that kind of feedback.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:50
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Onyx Path stumbled a couple of times, but their latest edition of Scion has been done with lots of consultation with people and experts from the cultures of the gods represented there.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:58
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Peas and Rice posted:Huh, yeah, I guess so. Has anyone brought this to their attention? They seem VERY responsive to that kind of feedback. I mean, they can't not know about it.
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Oct 19, 2017 19:59
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Kai Tave posted:One thing I always thought was a nice touch was that FFG went out of their way to illustrate female guardsmen throughout the Only War 40K line. Netrunner's art seems fairly diverse as well. I don't know if I'd call them a standout beacon of progressivism but they at least seem able to not shoot themselves in both feet before swallowing them. I feel like they could've/wanted to do a lot more with their 40k lines on this front, but GW was fairly controlling when it came to their licenses. Trying to make Deathwatch more progressive (i.e., Space Marines don't have to be men, there are Space Marines of all different colors in every chapter rather than having all the blacks in the Salamanders/asians in the White Scars) would've brought the wrath of some GW sperglord down on them because  and lore. Maybe there will be change on this front: some of my friends are optimistic about the people handling the line because in 8th Ed Roboute Guilliman had the exact reaction that any enlightened person should have to the Imperium/people who believe the Imperium is cool and good instead of a horrifying parody (i.e., you maniacs! why the gently caress do you think any of this is good?!).Aside from a few weird depictions here and there (Only War's female Commissar comes to mind - she doesn't need a low-cut top and high heels to  traitorous IG), they did a decent job by OW.
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Oct 19, 2017 20:04
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Peas and Rice posted:Huh, yeah, I guess so. Has anyone brought this to their attention? They seem VERY responsive to that kind of feedback. Yes, I brought it up in the Kickstarter comments. They were unwilling to change it. Here's the link. quote:inklesspen on July 1 quote:Nicole Lindroos of Green Ronin 2-time creator on July 1 quote:inklesspen on July 1 I do not recall any followup from the design team "weighing in". Unfortunately, just one day later (July 2), the drama about netobvious's insert character and "Trigger Warning" started. inklesspen fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Oct 19, 2017 |
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Oct 19, 2017 20:10
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'Dire Roma stereotypes are a key part of the awkward eighties-nineties YA fantasy subgenre we're emulating and we can't just ignore that' I mean at least they're not that one Varisian Crime boss in Pathfinder who looks straight up like a Nazi propaganda poster, but it's still not a good look.
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Oct 19, 2017 20:13
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, it's become real apparent that Paizo's whole "No see we're actually serious about being progressive!" thing is just as performative as WotC's, and maybe even far more insultingly so since they've been using their own employees as a shield. Yeah, having read a number of Starfinger interviews in the process of doing my review / coverage, there's very much a back-patting about how progressive about having a lesbian iconic and an ace iconic and... two things just come to mind. One, doing that kind of thing is just something to do, it's not a feather in your cap to tout. The answer shouldn't be to hold it up as your progressive cred, it's just the minimum expectation of what they should do. It's good that they're working at not being exclusive, but you don't earn awards for just not doing bad things. Two, it's not like it matters to the game. It's not like the fact that Navasi is a lesbian is mentioned in any of the 525 pages that make up the core rules (so I don't mention it in the review) or is really relevant to anything but the dedicated fandom. In fact, because it's not a factor in the book, all I can focus on is her visual - which is, uh, just the modern spunky dye-job Asian stereotype. Sorry, Starfinger, you didn't give me much else to work with!... especially given the other portrayal of Asians in the book. But I haven't gotten to those folks yet. Soon. It beats the alternative, to be sure, and I'm glad that they're doing it. Obviously the dev lead comes across as very sincere about it. But at the same time when its so often brought up as "look at this cool thing we're doing", it feels like tokenism to me, but I'm not the best person to judge that.
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Oct 19, 2017 20:20
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inklesspen posted:Yes, I brought it up in the Kickstarter comments. They were unwilling to change it. Here's the link. Well that's unfortunate, especially since I'd consider Blue Rose so progressive in so many other areas. 
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Oct 19, 2017 20:41
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Okay, I gotta ask: is there a word filter that turns the "d" into a "g" when people type "Starfinder"? Because if so, that's hilarious.
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Oct 20, 2017 00:59
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Okay, I gotta ask: is there a word filter that turns the "d" into a "g" when people type "Starfinder"? Because if so, that's hilarious. Take a look at ARB's F&F review of the game. You'll find the answer you seek.
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Oct 20, 2017 01:00
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Okay, I gotta ask: is there a word filter that turns the "d" into a "g" when people type "Starfinger"? Because if so, that's hilarious. You don't have to find stars. They're one of the easiest things in the universe to spot.
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Oct 20, 2017 01:12
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inklesspen posted:You don't have to find stars. They're one of the easiest things in the universe to spot. I would have marginally more respect for Paizo (still not much) if Starfinder was simply 524 blank pages and one which simply read "look up, stupid."
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Oct 20, 2017 01:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah, having read a number of Starfinger interviews in the process of doing my review / coverage, there's very much a back-patting about how progressive about having a lesbian iconic and an ace iconic and... two things just come to mind. They did the same thing with the oracle iconic, she's trans and it doesn't come up anywhere.
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Oct 20, 2017 03:04
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Kurieg posted:They did the same thing with the oracle iconic, she's trans and it doesn't come up anywhere. I don't recall if their other LGBTA iconics have it relevant anywhere either.
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Oct 20, 2017 03:16
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Kwyndig posted:Um, no, they're not. I'm not even going to link it but there's a lion like, covered in dicks. Huh.... I remember the lion with the dick tail, enormous-dick-monster-covered-in-breasts (comes with nude female slaves), the forge god with three dick-like heads and a mass of meaty tentacle-like junk he can whip around like a cudgel (comes with nude male slaves), and the shirtless guy sitting on a throne of hands (comes with nude female book stand), but I don't remember a lion that's totally made of dicks. And oh there's also the lion you can fight in the board game and "hit in the ding-dong" (game's phrasing) and get that as a loot drop. The tonal whiplash is honestly more disconcerting to me than all of the penis monsters and female miniatures proportioned like senran kagura chracters. Lemniscate Blue posted:Okay, I gotta ask: is there a word filter that turns the "d" into a "g" when people type "Starfinder"? Because if so, that's hilarious. it was a typo that ended up sticking because the game is a large middle finger to fans and foes alike dwarf74 posted:Gamers of color talk about Chult and the Tomb of Annihilation. It's so weird to see that article praise the Curse of Strahd for LGBT representation without bringing up the really awful visanti stereotypes in it. Blue Rose is disappointing because even while it poo-poos the romani stereotypes like thieving, child-snatching, and alcoholism, it's happy to romanticize the ~free roaming~ and fortune telling, but Curse of Strahd happly wallows in all of it. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Oct 20, 2017 |
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Oct 20, 2017 04:43
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Nuns with Guns posted:I remember the lion with the dick tail, This is underselling it. It's a lion, with a human face, that has a vaguely dick-like appendage for a beard, and also has hands coming out of its butt, and those hands are holding something vaguely like a tail, and that tail ends in what is unmistakably a dick.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:45
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This is underselling it. Yeah... I didn't want to look it up again to remember all the details there's also the baby blob thing with wings made out of hands that's barfing rainbows on one of his naked slave girl attendants
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Oct 20, 2017 04:48
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senrath posted:I don't recall if their other LGBTA iconics have it relevant anywhere either. Came up in the comics at least. And there’s art in one of the books of the mesmerist mind controlling Merisiel to make out with Valeros in front of Seoni.
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Oct 20, 2017 04:50
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Arivia posted:Came up in the comics at least. And there’s art in one of the books of the mesmerist mind controlling Merisiel to make out with Valeros in front of Seoni. 
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Oct 20, 2017 04:56
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Serf posted:Sounds to me like workers in the TG industry ought to have a union.
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Oct 20, 2017 05:09
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Merisiel and her partner are shown to be a couple in the Pathfinder card game app. That's where I found out about that, in fact.
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Oct 20, 2017 06:35
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potatocubed posted:Merisiel and her partner are shown to be a couple in the Pathfinder card game app. That's where I found out about that, in fact. Arivia posted:Came up in the comics at least. And there’s art in one of the books of the mesmerist mind controlling Merisiel to make out with Valeros in front of Seoni. I'm glad Pathfinder is treating it with the care needed, but also isn't this literally the big "ok but for reals don't do this" regarding charm spells? Like, how long until we start seeing "non-coercive enchantment spells?"
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Oct 20, 2017 06:44
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'm glad Pathfinder is treating it with the care needed, but also isn't this literally the big "ok but for reals don't do this" regarding charm spells? Like, how long until we start seeing "non-coercive enchantment spells?" Isn't the first part of your statement kind of at odds with the latter? "Hey here's our iconic lesbian couple, now here's someone's erotic mind control fetish art of one of them being made to make out with a dude" does not strike me as treating anything with tact or care. Maybe I'm missing some crucial context that makes it all better somehow, but I'm kind of struggling to think of what that might be that wouldn't just open up a whole 'nother can of worms.
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Oct 20, 2017 06:55
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Kai Tave posted:Isn't the first part of your statement kind of at odds with the latter? "Hey here's our iconic lesbian couple, now here's someone's erotic mind control fetish art of one of them being made to make out with a dude" does not strike me as treating anything with tact or care. Kai Tave, when have you ever known me to be positive towards Pathfinder? It's me. Cirno. The context you're missing is sarcasm 
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Oct 20, 2017 07:23
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ProfessorCirno posted:Kai Tave, when have you ever known me to be positive towards Pathfinder? It's me. Cirno. The "but" confused me, I thought you were referring to the other appearances where as ARB puts it they're just sorta there being Paizo's proud LGBT cheevos, which to be honest is about as much care as you generally get in this hobby when it comes to that sort of thing. Like, if all Paizo did with these iconic characters was just have them be around with no further acknowledgement of their sexuality, gender identity, etc. that would be a step up from the average handling of the matter, as sad as that is.
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Oct 20, 2017 08:17
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LuiCypher posted:I feel like they could've/wanted to do a lot more with their 40k lines on this front, but GW was fairly controlling when it came to their licenses. Trying to make Deathwatch more progressive (i.e., Space Marines don't have to be men, there are Space Marines of all different colors in every chapter rather than having all the blacks in the Salamanders/asians in the White Scars) would've brought the wrath of some GW sperglord down on them because There's a reason I'm modeling female Primaris marines in my new set of Space Wolves. I mean, beyond making grogs angry.
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Oct 20, 2017 09:08
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'm glad Pathfinder is treating it with the care needed, but also isn't this literally the big "ok but for reals don't do this" regarding charm spells? Like, how long until we start seeing "non-coercive enchantment spells?" Apparently that's literally the spell's only effect, because Pathfinder needs thousands of turbo-specialized spells nobody ever takes. Although . . . "This spell doesn’t override the targets’ normal sexual preferences or other limitations. If romantic feelings are incompatible for this reason, the creature instead feels an intimate platonic bond with the other."
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