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Kim Jong Il posted:It says that people should be ethnically cleansed from their homes What? Boycotts, sanctions and divestments do not force people from their homes.
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Oct 22, 2017 17:18
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lollontee posted:What? Boycotts, sanctions and divestments do not force people from their homes. He’s claiming that forcing settlers out of the West Bank is ethnic cleansing
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Oct 22, 2017 17:31
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Palestinian houses being razed to make way for Israeli settlement: not ethnic cleansing, should be normalized Palestinians being allowed to rebuild their houses: ethnic cleansing, ethnonationalist garbage
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Oct 22, 2017 18:07
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Only the best and brightest work for Israeli policequote:Relying on an automatic translation, Israeli police mistakenly arrested a Palestinian man last week because they thought he had published a Facebook post saying “Hurt them” when what he had really written was “Good morning.” I'm sure if he wasn't thinking of bulldozing somebody earlier, the thought might occur to him now! 
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Oct 22, 2017 19:29
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Not allowing Palestinian refugees to return to Israel isn't ethnic cleansing, it's ethnic maintenance. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 22, 2017 21:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Only the best and brightest work for Israeli police I love how 'incitement' only applies if you're an arab. Have a look at Zehava Galon's facebook page, you can probably arrest hundreds for incitement. Also, ACAB.
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Oct 22, 2017 22:43
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Miftan posted:I love how 'incitement' only applies if you're an arab. Have a look at Zehava Galon's facebook page, you can probably arrest hundreds for incitement. Also, ACAB. Did anyone here mention Zehava Galon resigning parliament to focus on growing the party (Meretz), and saying she'll resign the chairmanship if it doesn't work out? Mindboggling for a politician, I'd say.
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Oct 22, 2017 22:45
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Some town in Texas is trying to make hurricane relief funds contingent on not boycotting Israel. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/20/559070267/need-hurricane-aid-in-one-texas-city-if-you-boycott-israel-you-may-be-out-of-luc quote:Hurricane Harvey's floodwaters damaged many homes in the Texas city of Dickinson, and residents are applying for assistance and working to repair their properties.
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Oct 22, 2017 22:53
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hakimashou posted:Some town in Texas is trying to make hurricane relief funds contingent on not boycotting Israel. this is so disgusting
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Oct 22, 2017 22:57
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jerusalem
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Oct 22, 2017 23:05
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hakimashou posted:Some town in Texas is trying to make hurricane relief funds contingent on not boycotting Israel.
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Oct 22, 2017 23:42
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fool_of_sound posted:He’s claiming that forcing settlers out of the West Bank is ethnic cleansing They're quite welcome to stay under Palestinian administration. 
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Oct 22, 2017 23:56
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Good to see the right-wing racist argument that someone moving in down the street from you is actually just like them kicking you out of your own home.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:18
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Nebalebadingdong posted:This is a dumb loving argument that everyone sees right through it, and you cling to it precisely so that discussions goes endlessly in circles. Restoring to refugees what was taken from them is not ethnic cleansing. Stop being a coward and spewing this specious bullshit and own up to being an ultra-nationalist who fears your precious nation state being watered down with those who you've deemed undesirable. If you're forcibly removing people from their homes, that's ethnic cleansing. It's not a good idea to bring justice to one round of ethnic cleansing with a second round. The only just solution to the refugee problem is financial compensation. lollontee posted:What? Boycotts, sanctions and divestments do not force people from their homes. I'm referring to Barghouti's demand for the right of return. If you support BDS as a pressure tactic to end the occupation, that's still a bad idea unless you're wholly consistent with boycotting other illegal occupiers and human rights abusers. It's also bad tactics, because BDS existing makes an actual deal that much harder to reach. fool_of_sound posted:He’s claiming that forcing settlers out of the West Bank is ethnic cleansing No I'm not. I literally said "right of return." VitalSigns posted:Good to see the right-wing racist argument that someone moving in down the street from you is actually just like them kicking you out of your own home. I don't know if you're referring to me, but that's not my argument. I'm talking about land claims and home ownership, not citizenship. I think immigrants are great, and Israel should allow anyone in who genuine wants to be Israeli. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2017 00:06
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Kim Jong Il posted:If you're forcibly removing people from their homes, that's ethnic cleansing. It's not a good idea to bring justice to one round of ethnic cleansing with a second round. The only just solution to the refugee problem is financial compensation. you do know that the state of Israel does not acknowledge "israeli" as a citizenship, right
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Oct 27, 2017 01:27
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Kim Jong Il posted:
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Oct 27, 2017 15:20
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Ograbme posted:Is this actually true? It's a scapegoat.
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Oct 27, 2017 15:23
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Ograbme posted:Is this actually true? Only inasmuch as BDS demands are very different to the demands of Palestinians.
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Oct 27, 2017 15:38
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Kim Jong Il posted:The only just solution to the refugee problem is financial compensation. You're back to keeping out the undesirables. You could counter-offer financial compensation AND repatriation/citizenship, if not specific property. Kim Jong Il posted:I don't know if you're referring to me, but that's not my argument. I'm talking about land claims and home ownership, not citizenship. I think immigrants are great, and Israel should allow anyone in who genuine wants to be Israeli. You talk a big game about being pro-immigration and anti-bibi, but you're against anything would put these beliefs into practice. Writing checks you know can't be cashed is a form of cowardice.
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Oct 27, 2017 15:39
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Kim Jong Il posted:If you're forcibly removing people from their homes, that's ethnic cleansing. It's not a good idea to bring justice to one round of ethnic cleansing with a second round. The only just solution to the refugee problem is financial compensation. Hey, a quick question I've had on my mind for a while is whether you consider the entry of Palestinians into the State of Palestine as part of the "right of return," or if you are referring exclusively to Israel itself having to accept returning refugees when you say so. I think it's a very important distinction to make, and I feel like the cloudiness around the term really makes it difficult to discuss. Currently refugees are barred from entering both, but a two state peace deal would consequentially have the State of Palestine controlling access into their own borders. What are your views?
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Oct 27, 2017 16:19
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Kim Jong Il posted:That's garbage. I'm an active supporter of the two state solution and confronting BDSers and Bennettites who want endless war, which will bring nothing but misery and suffering to Palestinians. Ultra nationalist movements like BDS are a direct threat to the safety and security of Palestinians. We should be looking for pathways to peace to de-escalate the conflict and promote security and prosperity for everyone, instead of screaming about "normalization" and provoking reactionaries. What is a Bennettite?
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Oct 28, 2017 19:53
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Followers of Naftali Bennett?
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Oct 28, 2017 21:04
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Intrinsic Field Marshal posted:What is a Bennettite? Middle East Eye posted:Israeli Education Minister Naftali Bennett called on supporters on Thursday to give up their lives to ensure the annexation of the West Bank. Jerusalem Post posted:Palestinian refugees can not be allowed to return to the West Bank en masse, Education Minister Naftali Bennett told Army Radio on Sunday morning. He warned that such a move would endanger the State of Israel. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 21:14
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A racist rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 28, 2017 23:44
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Comparing BDS to that rear end in a top hat is just insanity.
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Oct 29, 2017 00:52
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Kim Jong Il posted:If you're forcibly removing people from their homes, that's ethnic cleansing. It's not a good idea to bring justice to one round of ethnic cleansing with a second round. The only just solution to the refugee problem is financial compensation. You are a literal war crimes apologist FYI. Firstly, what you are suggesting goes against our basic conception of justice. If someone steals something from someone else we don't say to the victim "Oh I'm sorry, we would return your stolen property but, y'know, that would just be wrong!" That is not just by any basic common sense metric. Secondly, your claim is completely wrong legally too. There is no single ethnic cleansing law, because the acts themselves that lead to ethnic cleansing would what is be considered the war crimes e.g. in Yugoslavia, Palestine etc it was all the rape and torture and murder and threats which enabled ethnic cleansing to happen. If Israelis are removed by Israel as part of a negotiated peace settlement using appropriate levels of force, that would not qualify as a war crime - in fact its the continuing presence of Israeli settlers in the occupied Palestinian territories that is the war crime. So for instance the ICC has the statute against unlawful deportation defined as " forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law". So of course this wouldn't apply to the removal of settlers as they have no legal right to be there, they would just be being removed from the land that Israel has been stolen and where Israelis should not be present as per normal law. Or for another example, article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention specifically states "Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive" and also ads "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." The protected people are the civilians of the occupied territory, hence Palestinians. Israeli settlers on the land in specific contravention to this very article are not protected and their presence is a war crime. The removal of settlers who are illegally stealing Palestinian land and inflicting ongoing ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians is just and does not itself qualify as ethnic cleansing. This is not shocking if you remember that laws are generally designed to protect victims rather than perpetrators.
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Oct 29, 2017 09:54
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Which is to say nothing of the fact that in negotiations Palestinians have offered a completely pared down version of the right of return which is no demographic threat to the Jewish majority and have still been refused and denounced by Israel for it.
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Oct 29, 2017 17:12
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tentative8e8op posted:Someone agreeing with Israeli Education Minister Naftali Bennett, who believes the West Bank and Gaza belong under Israeli control and are just another part of Israel. quote:At issue, Liberman said, are 700,000 Palestinian refugees and their descendants living in Syria and Lebanon. “Not a single Palestinian will return from Canada or the United Kingdom.” It's not close to the dumbest thing Lieberman has said, but "nobody would give up their life in a stable Western country to come back to their homeland" is still a pretty dumb thing for an Israeli to say. Kim Jong Il posted:If you're forcibly removing people from their homes, that's ethnic cleansing. It's not a good idea to bring justice to one round of ethnic cleansing with a second round. The only just solution to the refugee problem is financial compensation. Has anybody ever meaningfully proposed this? ModernMajorGeneral fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 07:21
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make it a no state solution, the capital gets nationalized and the governments are dissolved to be replaced by a workers state with genuine democratic controls in the workplace
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Oct 30, 2017 09:31
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or i guess you could just use cutting edge genetic phenotyping to ID everybody across the globeand relocate them to where their dna matches the bones of people found before the bronze age 
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Oct 30, 2017 09:38
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Has anybody ever meaningfully proposed this? No-one is talking about ethnically cleansing Israelis because they are there illegally so it wouldn't be ethnic cleansing to remove them. As part of the peace deal, it is assumed that there will be the removal of a small fraction of the settlers. For the past several decades Israel has been committing as much ethnic cleansing as it can get away with, slowly bringing it's own population into Palestinian territory to create "Facts on the ground". For instance Ma'ale Adumim now like 20,000+ Israeli civilians settled on palestinian land. When a peace deal is finally agreed (if it ever is) Israel will require that any large or medium settlement is incorporated into Israel and the territory annexed. This completely contravenes the rights of the Palestinians and is an ongoing war crime, but at this point it's just what Israel does. Palestine has been willing to allow this annexation to occur so that only a fraction of the illegal settlers are removed back to Israel but Israel has still not accepted past peace deals.
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Oct 30, 2017 21:49
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team overhead smash posted:No-one is talking about ethnically cleansing Israelis because they are there illegally so it wouldn't be ethnic cleansing to remove them. Sorry, I wasn't clear in the post - I was wondering if anyone on either side had made a proposal for financial compensation of Palestinian refugees instead of the right of return, not about removing settlers.
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Oct 31, 2017 02:31
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Sorry, I wasn't clear in the post - I was wondering if anyone on either side had made a proposal for financial compensation of Palestinian refugees instead of the right of return, not about removing settlers. Yes. Denying any right to return and having a schedule of payments has been the Israeli position in the past in negotiations. As for ethnically cleansing Israelis, that's the least likely thing to ever loving happen in Israel, it's so absurd it doesn't merit examination. The only power capable of trying is the United States.
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Oct 31, 2017 02:55
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Former DILF posted:or i guess you could just use cutting edge genetic phenotyping to ID everybody across the globeand relocate them to where their dna matches the bones of people found before the bronze age Sounds like fun, let me save the game real quick before we try this.
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Oct 31, 2017 06:27
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facts on the ground I read about 'facts on the ground' derided as irrelevant compared to treaties or history or whatever, but aren't they the only thing that matters? Every social organization on earth was formed by the actions of individuals slowly changing 'facts on the ground', either deliberately as a group or just incidentally. Treaties, agreements, etc, if useful, are just forms to recognize, assert or clarify these ground facts so that groups can get along. Agreements that don't reflect current realities have as much weight as a Star Citizen release date. As an outsider, it seems baffling that armistice lines or right of return are even mentioned in earnest. When I look at the West Bank from space I see it crossed with Israeli built roads, walls and dotted by checkpoints and the familiar western-looking suburbs of Israeli settlements. Removing them seems about as likely as a aboriginal band marching to my city hall and demanding that the palefaces pack up and leave. Am I grossly misreading the balance of power, or is there really any strength and impetus from any party to move lines in the Palestinian's favor? Then defend the lines? The only thing that even seems to slow the tide is the demographic problem, but this doesn't help the Palestinians any; they just get walled up in ghettos. The fact that this is manifest destiny, ethnic cleansing, warcrime etc, etc doesn't affect the interests or the actions of the involved parties. ie. Why haven't the Palestinians just get together some unity governance and make a deal, when every decade they have fewer bargaining chips? You guys know better than me, but the proposed deals were better in the past, weren't they? fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Oct 31, 2017 |
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Oct 31, 2017 18:29
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fritzgryphon posted:facts on the ground because of the facts on the ground. which are that on the occasions deals have been made, the Israeli government has proudly bragged about how they broke them so they could keep doing what they wanted to do. not hyperbole. they caught netanyahu on tape. and in the runup to Cast Lead, Manning-leaked diplomatic cables indicated the israelis were genuinely concerned the Palestinians were holding to the latest deal, and would need some pretext to go in and mow the grass. that Israel's excuse since then for not negotiating is "the organization we supported to undercut the Palestinian Authority has successfully undercut the Palestinian Authority" is yet one more fact on the ground indicating that there is nothing the Palestinians can offer beyond mass suicide that Israel would accept.
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Oct 31, 2017 18:41
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like, you take this down to realpolitik facts on the ground, here they are. Israel will not give any other nation access to the West Bank or Gaza because of the national security risk. Israel cannot allow the inhabitants of the West Bank or Gaza to have full citizenship in Israel without eliminating its treasured status as an ethnostate. Israel cannot survive as a nation without American aid. Therefore, it must thread the needle in exterminating the Palestinians slowly and quietly enough Daddy doesn't cut their allowance for doing so. the alternative is becoming a modern democracy with civil rights laws, and the Likud coalition will not accept that outcome.
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Oct 31, 2017 18:46
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fritzgryphon posted:facts on the ground The facts on the ground aren't irrelevant, and nobody here treats them like they are. Let me be plain, there is no prospect for peace in this matter for the following reasons: - Israel is overwhelmingly stronger than any other regional power and much stronger than Palestine itself, as well as possessing a nuclear deterrent. - Israel has the favour in negotiations of the world's leading superpower as well as the European community - Israel is the recipient of vast foreign aid, which in the US's case also includes about 1/4 of Israel's defence budget - No international organisation, despite their efforts, has any traction on Israel - Despite slowly changing perceptions, many non-Arab outsiders see Israel as weak, besieged, precarious, and holding off a barbarian horde - Whenever negotiations do take place, Israel refuses even the most grovelling of compromises the Palestinians offer - Wherever Palestinians are less violent in their resistance, Palestinians have their land stolen more rapidly - Israel is currently under the political control of a corrupt strongman with the support in coalition of far right parties I have repeatedly stated that without a total turnaround in US policy there is simply no prospect of peace whatsoever. Having said that - what are Palestinians to do? You ask if they could put together a unity government? They had that for decades, and are in the process of building one again. Both Fatah and even Hamas have been willing to offer compromises to Israel not with regard, but with disregard to their rights under various international undertakings. They offered everything short of total unconditional surrender. That is the only thing Palestine has not offered to Israel - so what is the incentive Israel offers, if every time the Palestinians offer something more, the Israelis demand something more? There's only continued and bitter struggle, or resignation to total defeat. Moreover, Israel has actively and consciously adopted a 'facts on the ground' strategy, whereby it'll knowingly commit war crimes and crimes against humanity in the hope that, being completed, they'll be accepted as fait accompli. How long can Israel's strategic partners and the international community continue to reward that kind of conduct? The long run trends for Israel are not good. While it is gainful for Israel's power in the short to medium turn, it is destroying Israel's relationships with other states it depends on for its economic and military power. The situation is very much as the state of Israel wants it. There is simply no reason for them to accept anything the Palestinians offer apart from a white flag.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:02
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Thanks Ze Pollak and Disinterested. Is there any way to champion Palestinian interests. Maybe do more terrorisms? Or maybe not. Even though rockets, knifings etc make security problems for Israel, they don't really do any favors for average Joe Palestinian. Can't stop the invasion, can't make a two state deal, and can't even surrender and be assimilated (w/o becoming a Jew. Seems like the best choice if it weren't for the circumcision thing). I wonder why there isn't a mass exodus. Or is the brain drain already done, and the people left can't afford it?
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Oct 31, 2017 19:05
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fritzgryphon posted:Thanks Ze Pollak and Disinterested. Violent resistance isn't of that much help to Palestinians, since a) Israel is much stronger b) Israel extracts revenge 10-100 fold on Palestinians seemingly with even less regard for civilian/military differences, e.g. operation cast lead  c) Palestinians look worse in the eyes of the international community all the same d) It's essentially possible to resist anymore because of how Israel has chopped Palestine up and besieged it Mass exodus isn't a help since a) It already happened b) No neighbouring states will accept the outflow since those states don't want to accept the total ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as fait accompli. They therefore keep Palestinians in refugee camps in perpetuity waiting for the status quo to change. The only serious prospect for change is a reversal of US policy. Only once has the US seriously threatened Israeli aid, and it provoked a big response in Israeli policy. That is the route toward any real change.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:13
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