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Is jump up a double on a saurus? wouldn't that solve the wrestling flaw?
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Oct 22, 2017 07:49
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namad posted:Is jump up a double on a saurus? wouldn't that solve the wrestling flaw? Agility so yes, it's doubles. Besides, Sauri are Ag1, so it would fail half the time.
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Oct 22, 2017 08:43
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namad posted:Is wrestle actually better on skinks than saurus? or does this team usually just have 0 wrestle? Wouldn't a skink with wrestle basically never use it because fleetfoot is too good a blitzer? Or is it possible to build a wrestle strip ball skink to run into danger and die? Leaving fleetfoot purely for pickups and scores? I guess I could be persuaded to change my vote, and get on board. I just don't currently comprehend. Wrestle is a specialty skill. As a general rule it's better to have your men standing up than lying down, and this is doubly important on a team like Lizardmen that wants to outmuscle their opponent with only seven non-stunty players - a Saurus lying down is a substantial amount of field control conceded. For a generic punchmans player, Block is even further preferable because it gives you a chance to remove players. Lying down to cuddle with an Elf isn't going to get you a man advantage or any SPP. The only players that want wrestle are using it for a job. Generally they're either ballhawks purpose-built to pop the ball free by any means necessary, or they're roadblock linos whose job is to be annoying to punch and stuff Blitzes and who don't plan to be throwing many blocks themselves. This isn't to suggest that a Saurus would be a bad ballhawk - they're big, reasonably fast, and have access to general skills - it's just that Saurs need to be the backbone of the team and they can't do that lying down. A Skink would actually be a pretty sweet ballhawk in the same way that Gunners work, except they don't have reliable access to the necessary and a Skink with only one of Wrestle / Strip Ball is not good at any job. EDIT: let's look at the dynamics of punching with Block vs Wrestle to really break this down. If you knock a dude down with block, you control him - the only way your opponent can get that player free is to either risk the dodge or spend his blitz to clear your player away. If he's not willing to do that, he either stands up to get punched again or leaves him on the ground and takes his own player out of the game for that turn. If you do the same thing with Wrestle, you're essentially conceding that control to your opponent - his player is free to walk away on his turn, or he can just stand up and cover your dude on the ground to claim the dominant position. This is also why Wrestle is good on players who expect to get punched. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Oct 22, 2017 |
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Oct 22, 2017 23:02
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Voyager I posted:Wrestle is a specialty skill. As a general rule it's better to have your men standing up than lying down, and this is doubly important on a team like Lizardmen that wants to outmuscle their opponent with only seven non-stunty players - a Saurus lying down is a substantial amount of field control conceded. For a generic punchmans player, Block is even further preferable because it gives you a chance to remove players. Lying down to cuddle with an Elf isn't going to get you a man advantage or any SPP. The only players that want wrestle are using it for a job. Generally they're either ballhawks purpose-built to pop the ball free by any means necessary, or they're roadblock linos whose job is to be annoying to punch and stuff Blitzes and who don't plan to be throwing many blocks themselves. Counterpoint: block does not temporarily remove a block piece from the field on a both down and wrestle does. As all the people being boring and voting for guard have shown we're at the point where guard starts being common and a big thing. Being able to drop a key guard piece reliably can allow you many more punches in a round giving you a much stronger field control.
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Oct 22, 2017 23:13
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That is what I worry about most. We're up to the TV where anyone beefy enough to stand their ground and punch back will at very least have block. Now also having block is probably the correct move. As a watcher though, seeing the BOOOING of block both down into blocker is boring. I can see though that it would be much better to give every skink who rolls a double wrestle and if they don't get strip ball fire them (or vica versa), and that's what I'll vote for going forward. As such, I'll vote to name the new skink Wrestle. That's where the real fun will be had.
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Oct 23, 2017 00:53
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Legit tactics: 11 Gnobblars on an Ogre team. Use starting funds to buy the stadium upgrdes to get discounted Star Players. 50% chance per game to go hog wild with star players like a madman.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:12
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namad posted:That is what I worry about most. We're up to the TV where anyone beefy enough to stand their ground and punch back will at very least have block. Now also having block is probably the correct move. As a watcher though, seeing the BOOOING of block both down into blocker is boring. A wrestle skink would get stomped on so fast. We should totally do that. ...To the next one whose career survives long enough for dubs.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:19
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One of my favorite players is an undoe gobbo with wrestle twoheads and either horns or strip ball (if dubs a second time). Goes any square on the board on a 2 and beats up ball carriers.
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Oct 23, 2017 01:43
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That was certainly a game. Lots of touching.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:28
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Since the vote is officially over let me chime in on it. The problem with wrestle on a saurus is that we want our sauruses standing up, they represent alot of our team's TV and strength and having them go down due to wrestle is actively harmful. Wrestle is not a sidegrade to block, it is a niche skill with a few particular uses and it really just doesn't work on saurus. Again, primarily just because we have 7 real players + a bunch of skinks, and 1/7th of our team lying down for our turn because they have wrestle and rolled skull/bd is terrible. However a wrestle stripball skink would be amazing.
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Oct 23, 2017 02:33
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I just want you to have King of Skills. Because lovely community memes are important. Also did you see my screen shots from yesterday?
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Oct 23, 2017 02:47
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In here or the discord? I guess not since i don't really remember. E: also if you signed up for goonbowl the divisions are posted and open for team enrollment and I really really want to get this week started so I need everybody to get their butts in there. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 03:01
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They're screen caps I discord surrounded by rants of dice and furill talking about ponies
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Oct 23, 2017 04:54
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Wrestle & Grab because JESUS CHRIST GOONS VOTE FOR SOMETHING AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT FUN
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Oct 23, 2017 05:49
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It's too late, we already voted for all the boring skills that every other lizard team ever has. Because we enjoy throwing away the power to make this team unique.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:07
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FoolyCharged posted:It's too late, we already voted for all the boring skills that every other lizard team ever has. Because we enjoy throwing away the power to make this team unique. Always that fine line between wanting to watch a good team and wanting Agent to suffer.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:13
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Lizards arw a team with minimal flexibility in their skills choices sadly. This is because they are pretty dang strong with the dull normal skills and their pieces are somewhat already over specalised by their stats lines to begin with.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:15
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WRESTLE
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Oct 23, 2017 06:21
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Having a bad team would be boring because while watching Agent lose a few times would be a laugh, it would get old quickly.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:47
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I just love that end-over-end flipping faceplant the elves do when they get punched.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:55
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FoolyCharged posted:It's too late, we already voted for all the boring skills that every other lizard team ever has. Because we enjoy throwing away the power to make this team unique. The problem with trying to make a team unique for the sake of being unique is that it quickly makes most of the the team basically useless at higher TV, and that ironically leads to games that are ultimately boring because your options on doing anything useful become limited. The very first Blood Bowl LP team on the forums was cKnoor's Changer of Plays, and because people went wild with niche skills, there were maybe three or four useful players on the entire team, and the rest existed basically to serve as punching bags while Mister Hadwich scored every single touchdown. It's better to get your basic, 'boring' skills first before you start trying to go for uniqueness, because at least then you'll have a solid base from which to try wild and crazy poo poo rather than a team who may once in six games try anything crazy simply because even playing cautiously will result in a one in three chance of failure and being crazy is wildly more dangerous.
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Oct 23, 2017 10:08
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Rorahusky posted:The problem with trying to make a team unique for the sake of being unique is that it quickly makes most of the the team basically useless at higher TV, and that ironically leads to games that are ultimately boring because your options on doing anything useful become limited. The very first Blood Bowl LP team on the forums was cKnoor's Changer of Plays, and because people went wild with niche skills, there were maybe three or four useful players on the entire team, and the rest existed basically to serve as punching bags while Mister Hadwich scored every single touchdown. Mister Hadwich is a hero
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Oct 23, 2017 10:46
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Gridlocked posted:Lizards arw a team with minimal flexibility in their skills choices sadly. This is because they are pretty dang strong with the dull normal skills and their pieces are somewhat already over specalised by their stats lines to begin with. I think lizards get to do cool stuff but realistically only after having the core skills in place, which is why originally I just had the 'everybody gets block' rule. Everybody with block, a couple guard pieces, then the team can kinda go off the rails more easily.
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Oct 23, 2017 12:25
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Agent355 posted:I think lizards get to do cool stuff but realistically only after having the core skills in place, which is why originally I just had the 'everybody gets block' rule. Everybody with block, a couple guard pieces, then the team can kinda go off the rails more easily. This, agreed wholeheartedly.. Yeah, it sucks getting a doubles on a saurus's first level and taking Block instead of lol Leap or lol Hail Mary Pass. Know what sucks more? Having your lol Leap Saurus never do anything because he's always the absolutely worst choice to take an action in any situation another saurus can stand in; his brothers all have Block and can punch better, and Leaping is always, what, 6+ for him?, so he's just... there, eating punches, maybe leaping for lulz if Agent has him left over and hasn't turnover'd (so he can break his spine on a failed leap and be taken behind the shed and shot and replaced with a saurus who might get Block and thus start getting more SPP). Nekomimi-Maiden fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 15:56
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Nekomimi-Maiden posted:This, agreed wholeheartedly.. Yeah, it sucks getting a doubles on a saurus's first level and taking Block instead of lol Leap or lol Hail Mary Pass. Know what sucks more? Having your lol Leap Saurus never do anything because he's always the absolutely worst choice to take an action in any situation another saurus can stand in; his brothers all have Block and can punch better, and Leaping is always, what, 6+ for him?, so he's just... there, eating punches, maybe leaping for lulz if Agent has him left over and hasn't turnover'd (so he can break his spine on a failed leap and be taken behind the shed and shot and replaced with a saurus who might get Block and thus start getting more SPP). Considering that the vote you're referncing was actually about power now or some more pain now for immense power later comparing it to agi 1 leaping is a bit disingenous. Same with the runner up skills this vote, not the best, optimal skills to have but still good useful skills that would get used unlike agi leap.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:21
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Yeah as funny as it is to think of a leapsaur, in practice it just means extra TV for no effect because Agent is never gonna press that leap button.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:23
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FoolyCharged posted:Considering that the vote you're referncing was actually about power now or some more pain now for immense power later comparing it to agi 1 leaping is a bit disingenous. The other argument against Wrestle is that in addition to being bad, it's not even funny on a Saurus. He's going to spend most of his time doing the normal thing of running up to people and trying to punch them - he'll just be doing it worse.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:38
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Blackmage Yapo posted:Always that fine line between wanting to watch a good team and wanting Agent to suffer. As someone who watched his elves die, let him suffer.
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Oct 23, 2017 19:55
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Voyager I posted:The other argument against Wrestle is that in addition to being bad, it's not even funny on a Saurus. He's going to spend most of his time doing the normal thing of running up to people and trying to punch them - he'll just be doing it worse. Unless they're a blodger with guard, shadowing, side step, etc in which case the removing that skill from this turn could very well be worth removing that saurus for this turn. It's not optimal but calling it uninteresting and without use is just wrong.
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Oct 23, 2017 20:05
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FoolyCharged posted:Unless they're a blodger with guard, shadowing, side step, etc in which case the removing that skill from this turn could very well be worth removing that saurus for this turn. I mean, a blodger with guard shadowing and sidestep is basically an extremely leveled amazon blitzer or wardancer. The former is a pretty uncommonly played team and the latter is kind of an edge case. Both are low armor gangfoul targets at pretty much any TV and I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a saurus to wrestle in order to more efficiently gank them. Edit: Has an LP team done Norse yet? They are fighty but still a reasonable speed and they already have block on a large portion of their positionals so you can vote for more funhaver skills without having a completely worthless player on the field. They have low armor and die in droves but that should be considered an extra special LP bonus because any badly voted players won't be around terribly long. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 20:36
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DeathSandwich posted:I mean, a blodger with guard shadowing and sidestep is basically an extremely leveled amazon blitzer or wardancer. The former is a pretty uncommonly played team and the latter is kind of an edge case. Both are gangfoul targets at pretty much any TV and I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a saurus to wrestle in order to more efficiently gank them. They were examples of a third skill to go with blodge, not all of them at once. A level 2 pro elf blitzer is blodge sidestep, a level 4 flolem that rolled dubs can be an immovable wall with guard, a level 3 gunner could be blodge shadowing and so on. Wrestle could remove that piece for a turn freeing up other pieces punching/movement options when block would just waste the punch.
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Oct 23, 2017 20:43
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I think Yapo did a Norse team. I know someone did, I just forget if it was him or Agent.
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Oct 23, 2017 20:49
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Manuel Calavera posted:I think Yapo did a Norse team. I know someone did, I just forget if it was him or Agent. It was Yapo. That one in particular was interesting in that its the only BB lp we've had that operated in a short league/tournament style. All the others have just been open play until the guy playing gets bored and quits.
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Oct 23, 2017 20:53
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DeathSandwich posted:I mean, a blodger with guard shadowing and sidestep is basically an extremely leveled amazon blitzer or wardancer. The former is a pretty uncommonly played team and the latter is kind of an edge case. Both are low armor gangfoul targets at pretty much any TV and I wouldn't necessarily dedicate a saurus to wrestle in order to more efficiently gank them. Yep, I did one! I forgot to get it archived but you can watch it here: First league (8 teams, full round robin + playoffs): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC6BC4DD8E126EADC Second league (16 teams, many returning, full round robin + playoffs again): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL88C800B7E83A12D2 Looks like some of the videos got dropped from the second playlist but I think they're all still uploaded on my channel, plus the dumb bonus video Agent355 and I did for the realtime mode in BB1. (EDIT: proclick for Agent laughing like a loon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0xHqTshgA&t=149s) FoolyCharged posted:It was Yapo. That one in particular was interesting in that its the only BB lp we've had that operated in a short league/tournament style. All the others have just been open play until the guy playing gets bored and quits. Yeah I was really trying to distinguish myself because I started it right after cKnoor finished his and wanted to do something different. In hindsight I shouldn't have used multiple commentators and such but I was dumb and it was my first LP so wugd? Also it was an awful production pace and I couldn't really take a week off or play ahead or pick up an easy game to get MNGs back or anything. Blackmage Yapo fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 21:21
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FoolyCharged posted:Unless they're a blodger with guard, shadowing, side step, etc in which case the removing that skill from this turn could very well be worth removing that saurus for this turn. On your turn you're going to be punching people and if you have the option to wrestle you're almost never going to take it except in very specific circumstances. Wrestle saurus isn't going to be blitzing generally because you're going to want your tackle/frenzy/MB guy who can actually hurt things to blitz. So you're going to be punching whatever is stuck to you and it's not going to be a blodger with a bunch of cool skills, it's going to be a zombie, and you aren't going to want to go to the pitch. On the opponents turn they may end up punching your saurus and then you're generally okay with wrastling because it makes his guy fall down and he won't be up on your turn while your guy just stands up and goes on his merry way. But it's generally not going to be the blodging sidestepper who you wrestle, it's still going to be a zombie. Wrestle is a defensive skill for frustrating and complicating your opponents, not an alternative to block for pro-active positionals like saurus. EXCEPT for ballhawks who can dive into cages and punch the ball carrier but that isn't saurus either, lizards don't dive into cages, they break cages open. I mean it's not as bad as say a leap saurus, but it's pretty drat bad and is just worse than block in every way that matters for lizard teams. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 21:36
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FoolyCharged posted:Unless they're a blodger with guard, shadowing, side step, etc in which case the removing that skill from this turn could very well be worth removing that saurus for this turn. Nobody has made the argument that Wrestle is a poo poo skill with no redeeming qualities - the argument has been that it is a situational skill with niche uses, which is not contradicted by extremely narrow examples of specific situations where Wrestle would be preferable. We know it does a job worth doing, it's just not a job you do often enough to justify building a Saurus around it.
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Oct 23, 2017 21:41
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Can you combine leap with blitz to attempt to land on top of another player?
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Oct 23, 2017 21:44
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Poil posted:Can you combine leap with blitz to attempt to land on top of another player? You can leap in and punch somebody but not land on them in the same way TTM can, unfortunately.
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Oct 23, 2017 21:45
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Blackmage Yapo posted:Yep, I did one! I forgot to get it archived but you can watch it here: I thought your blood bowl lp was one of the best, if not the best this forum has seen. The norse tendency to get a lot of causalities both for their team and against it, as well as having the ability to score a lot of points sometimes we very explosive and fun. The leagues ended up meaning you quit doing the let's play just before I had a chance to get bored of it, like I was able to with some of the longer running series. Really sad not to see it on the lparchive. Maybe I just like norse though, chaos/necromantic/skaven/lizardman have been the other let's played teams IIRC?
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Oct 23, 2017 22:14
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And a pro elf one.
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Oct 23, 2017 22:18
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