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I tried to log into RPGnet to check out these posts and apparently I was permabanned at some point in the past six months for "goon trolling" despite never actually posting on the site. I have officially received a more serious response from RPGnet moderators to an incident I don't even remember happening and can't find a record of than a person accused of raping an underaged girl.
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Oct 24, 2017 02:17
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| # ? May 23, 2024 12:45 |
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Reene posted:I tried to log into RPGnet to check out these posts and apparently I was permabanned at some point in the past six months for "goon trolling" despite never actually posting on the site. Was it this?
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Oct 24, 2017 02:37
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I'm kind of wondering what Onyx Path's take is going to be. Isn't Matt actual staff there, and not just a freelancer? At least with Morke, they were shot of him before any of this poo poo came to light.
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Oct 24, 2017 02:38
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This is, put plainly, a nonpunishment. McFarland voluntarily stepped down from moderating duties at the start of this so they're not even actually doing anything to him that he didn't say he was okay with. That's like dictating your own sentence at a criminal trial, it's not really a punishment because it imposes no hardship. A lack of any sort of a ban just sets a bad precedent and tells us that if you're in the industry then you can get away with any kind of gross behavior as long as nobody finds out immediately. Same old from the conspiracy of silence and the old boy's club.
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Oct 24, 2017 02:47
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Reene posted:I tried to log into RPGnet to check out these posts and apparently I was permabanned at some point in the past six months for "goon trolling" despite never actually posting on the site. What was your username?
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Oct 24, 2017 02:51
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Falstaff posted:That's good, definitely says that Paizo dealt with that particular situation according to the wishes of the victim. I don't think it does say they dealt with it in accordance with the wishes of the victim at all. Firstly, she's in the industry, with friends in the company concerned, so there's societal pressures involved. Secondly there's nothing that says they couldn't have banned Bill Webb. Lisa Stevens 'no tolerance' approach claim would mean that, gently caress yes you ban someone who has sexually harassed someone at your convention (not to mention the totally not addressed issue of him assaulting a member of staff while drunk). And likewise their 3 months to publish actually meaningful guidelines on harassment for their conventions. So no, this is Paizo covering up, and the victim's statement makes clear what a farce the previous statement by Lisa Stevens is. And, as others have said, while Jessica Price's experience is 2 years old, they also hosed up the handling of sexual harassment in the PFS, and published mechanised child abuse rules. No addressing of the cover ups, no addressing of the PFS harassment, and a bullshit 'you can trust us' statement. The biggest, most 'we are just covering up' issue, however, is locking the entire thing on their forums. No one gets to comment, no one gets to say anything, no discussion, no questions, no disagreements allowed. Paizo care more about the appeartance of dong the right thing, than doing the right thing.
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Oct 24, 2017 02:55
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I use the same name here and there. Kwyndig has the right of it; it's a non-response couched in a bunch of language that makes it look like this is them imposing a sanction when it was something he did voluntarily, and isn't a remotely proportional response to what he's accused of doing. PST posted:Paizo care more about the appeartance of dong the right thing, than doing the right thing. Which is business as usual for Paizo, WOTC, and most other big industry folks, so...yeah.
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Oct 24, 2017 03:03
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Reene posted:I use the same name here and there. As far as I can tell, you're not banned; you're a registered user with 4 posts. Try clearing your cookies from the site...? The reason why I'm confused is because we usually make it explicit why you're banned, with a record - an infraction notice - as to why it happened and an avenue for appeal. It sounds like you got none of that. Which is not the way that it should work. Edit: If you're having trouble logging in, let me know and I'll give you an address to contact me with. Cannibal Smiley fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 03:07
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PST posted:I don't think it does say they dealt with it in accordance with the wishes of the victim at all. Yeah, I dunno... Broadly speaking you're right, which is why I was saying that in this one instance they handled it according to her wishes, rather than saying Paizo handles harassment in general well (since that's obviously not the case.) Honestly, I get your heart is in the right place, and yeah BJ might just be saying what she is being pressured into saying/what's best for her career... But part of believing victims is actually believing them when they say stuff. If a harassment victim says "Actually, this was handled exactly how I asked them to handle it," responding with "Well obviously that's not true" isn't a great look. quote:Paizo care more about the appeartance of dong the right thing, than doing the right thing. For the rest I 100% agree. In particular, I've suspected they care more about appearances since I heard about the Kingdom Death thing, and my suspicions have only grown since.
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Oct 24, 2017 03:22
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Falstaff posted:Yeah, I dunno... Broadly speaking you're right, which is why I was saying that in this one instance they handled it according to her wishes. When X person has sexually harassed someone else, you don't let them slide on it. You don't have to involve the police if the victim doesn't want them involved and absolutely the victim has imput on what they want done about their attacker, but once again they have a duty of care towards other attendees, and future attendees of their conventions. And in this case, because of the alcohol and young children, the victim didn't want them kicked out (but who told them about the young children, how did they know about it - it's a reasonable assumption that this came up as a 'but if x then y' discussion) but that doesn't mean you allow the abusive fuckhead back ever again. It's blatantly clear at this point that Paizo knew it happened, they were supposedly willing to call the police, and Lisa Stevens says they have a zero tolerance policy on this, except when it's a friend in the industry, when it doesn't count. We also have the person who was assaulted while intervening, who presumably also didn't want to press charges because... Paizo has a duty of care towards attendees at their conventions. Their policies and procedures on handling these incidents are, blatantly, poo poo. Whether the victim wanted to make a big deal of it, or make it public, or not, they could absolutely ban Bill Webb for his actions. They chose not to. Other conventions ban people, because that's what you do, it doesn't matter if the victim wants to press charges, or not, you have a duty of care to your customers, and future customers. Their convention policies are a bare nod towards the idea, and there is absolutely no guidelines on who to report issues to, how they will be handled, who will make decisions or all the other things conventions have been dealing with and improving on over the last decade. They have continued this with perpetuating a culture of silence, shutting down discussion of the multiple incidents (not just the convention) on their forums. PST fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 03:34
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Desiden posted:I'm kind of wondering what Onyx Path's take is going to be. Isn't Matt actual staff there, and not just a freelancer? At least with Morke, they were shot of him before any of this poo poo came to light. The only ~employees~ of Onyx Path are Rich, and I think Ian? Maybe Rose was when she was line dev, but I doubt it now that she appears to be pulling back from non-personal projects. There might be a list in their site that I can't check right now.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:27
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LuiCypher posted:This is the kind of behavior that you want to look for when people make gently caress-ups like the one you cited. It doesn't change the outcome, but at least the industry is now breaking even on the number of people who'll keep working at being decent (and not shitlers), instead of minus 2 two people. You're more than welcome to keep bringing him up for it, but just remember that everyone else is just as welcome to recognize his self-awareness and continuing work to make up for his mistake. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 04:44
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You didn't actually cite anything, you just did your usual "Someone said something positive about Evil Hat, I must make vague allusions to how they're actually not good" schtick and let other people fill in the blanks. ...Also the 'prominent game designer' you're citing is Mark Diaz Truman who called Evil Hat out on diversity -in the middle of his 'my friend cussed out Zak S. and that makes him a bad person." post so, uh, yeah, kind of a big detail to leave out. unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 05:04
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I literally know nothing about Evil Hat so it all went over my head.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:34
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The Bee posted:I don't know a ton about the WoD. Does anyone have a primer on Beast and what made it / its first draft so skeezy? Kurieg does a great summation of Beast and his F&F write up is excellent, too, but the final version of Beast is terrible and creepy even divorced from all this stuff around Matt. The most satisfying way for beasts to feed is multiple sessions of physical and emotional abuse without killing a target. Beasts also have no reason do anything besides feed until they draw a hero, decimate the hero because heroes are terribly underpowered for primary antagonists (can't let people think they're worth playing instead), and going back to feeding on randos. The ultimate goal is to abuse people so successfully that they become a ~transcended abuse monster~ and get to fly off into the sunset. It's so repetitive, and I'd be disturbed by anyone that thinks of that as a fulfilling game. So what are Beasts for then? Well apparently they're "excellent" for multi-splat games. They give/get feeding bonuses from helping out other WoD monsters and have some subtle ability that compels every other supernatural to instinctively like them. A kind of "Poochy" aura, if you will. It's a good thing they have that, too, because otherwise a Beast approached sensibly should be beyond "repellent" territory and into "instantly murder" if it revealed its true nature to another splat. Vampires would hate the way they stir up fear in humans and put everyone on edge. Werewolves would hate how all the abuse and pain they cause creates powerful negative spirits. Geists too, but for ghosts. Changelings would hate everything about them because they're entire thing is being abuse victims that escaped beings of pure abuse. Mages are human enough to be horrified by them. They're the polar opposite of everything Prometheans aspire to be. Meanwhile, Hunters are out raiding the armory for supplies as we speak. Demons.... actually hate them for "reasons", but that doesn't matter much since there's no reason a Demon and Beast would ever interact. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 05:49
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Yeah, for the Garou-style Werewolves at least, that's deep in Bane territory. Especially the whole 'soul goes hunting if you don't feed' bit, that's straight out of the Bane possession handbook.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:54
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Beast is nWoD/CoD, but it's not far off from how bad spirits operate in that setting, either
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Oct 24, 2017 05:59
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  "Certainly, what Frank Mentzer did was wrong, but you also have to understand that I find you very attractive. Idiot." #killallmen EDIT: Another person talking about Paizo's resistance to doing more to quash problems. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 06:32
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Alan Kellogg/mythusmage is a pedophile by the way 
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Oct 24, 2017 06:47
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Ettin posted:Alan Kellogg/mythusmage is a pedophile by the way Oh, cool. I thought he was just a regular piece of poo poo. The name seemed vaguely familiar for some reason.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:50
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That Old Tree posted:Oh, cool. I thought he was just a regular piece of poo poo. The name seemed vaguely familiar for some reason. Yeah he's been a piece of poo poo all over this subject.
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Oct 24, 2017 07:02
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Ettin posted:Alan Kellogg/mythusmage is a pedophile by the way
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Oct 24, 2017 07:15
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Desiden posted:I'm kind of wondering what Onyx Path's take is going to be. Isn't Matt actual staff there, and not just a freelancer? At least with Morke, they were shot of him before any of this poo poo came to light. Matt is a freelancer with OPP, not an employee.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:38
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Kwyndig posted:This is, put plainly, a nonpunishment. McFarland voluntarily stepped down from moderating duties at the start of this so they're not even actually doing anything to him that he didn't say he was okay with. That's like dictating your own sentence at a criminal trial, it's not really a punishment because it imposes no hardship. A lack of any sort of a ban just sets a bad precedent and tells us that if you're in the industry then you can get away with any kind of gross behavior as long as nobody finds out immediately. Yeah, I pretty much finally removed rpg.net from bookmarks and suggestions altogether over this for these reasons. It's finally the final straw for me, although my usage had drastically scaled back over time.
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Oct 24, 2017 09:10
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Kai Tave posted:It really, really isn't. RPGnet moderation policy, and this isn't super-secret backstage stuff, is that in general stuff that happens off-forum isn't moderated for unless it's beyond the pale. One time some dude threatened to stalk someone to a convention and throw a bucket of dogshit on them. He did it on his livejournal or blog or whatever the gently caress people used back then, but he still got banned because seriously, gently caress that guy. Oh hey, Jackalope. Writing up the Cliff's Notes posts on that dude was fun.
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Oct 24, 2017 09:37
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Ettin posted:Alan Kellogg/mythusmage is a pedophile by the way What a piece of poo poo.
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Oct 24, 2017 12:36
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The worst thing in Beast was the example of play, where when the storyteller senses that a player is uncomfortable with the direction something's going and then uses this as a cue to double-down and push harder. Beast's garbage pretend content aside, this was encouraging harmful real-life behavior. I've never seen anything like that in games.
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Oct 24, 2017 12:54
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I can see that being good advice for, you know, spooky ghosts. Not literal goddamn abuse holy poo poo.
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Oct 24, 2017 12:59
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Nuns with Guns posted:They give/get feeding bonuses from helping out other WoD monsters and have some subtle ability that compels every other supernatural to instinctively like them. Wait what 
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Oct 24, 2017 14:06
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Slimnoid posted:Wait what They can latch onto other supernaturals and sate their hunger by watching them hunt/feed. They can also give them a supernatural power boost and gain special powers by having a bond with a supernatural type. Also they've got a special rule that makes it so that other supernaturals start out friendly when meeting them unless they have a compelling reason not to be.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:23
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Kurieg posted:Also they've got a special rule that makes it so that other supernaturals start out friendly when meeting them unless they have a compelling reason not to be.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:32
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Kurieg posted:They can latch onto other supernaturals and sate their hunger by watching them hunt/feed. They can also give them a supernatural power boost and gain special powers by having a bond with a supernatural type. The first part at least makes Beasts come off as the parasites they really are and I'm okay with that. Especially if you match them with truly heinous representatives of a particular splat and form a terrible bond. It can really sell Beasts as being absolutely awful creatures that nevertheless persevere through careful manipulation of others. But the second part? Fuuuuck no. Just being around a Beast should be compelling reason to kill them unless your humanity-equivalent score is low enough to where you think "hmm, this guy's got some good ideas." God, I hate this book even more now.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:41
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Kwyndig posted:This is, put plainly, a nonpunishment. McFarland voluntarily stepped down from moderating duties at the start of this so they're not even actually doing anything to him that he didn't say he was okay with. That's like dictating your own sentence at a criminal trial, it's not really a punishment because it imposes no hardship. A lack of any sort of a ban just sets a bad precedent and tells us that if you're in the industry then you can get away with any kind of gross behavior as long as nobody finds out immediately. I don't know that RPGnet wants to make it their job to punish people for felonies that don't have anything to do with the site. I mean, if someone tells the mods that a user is a convicted murderer posting about RPGs from jail, should that person be banned if they aren't actually causing problems on the site? Like, that's not a trick question or anything: under what circumstances should RPGnet ban people from using the site because they are a generically bad person in ways that don't impact their forums posting at all?
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Oct 24, 2017 14:50
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So far, the victim has not spoken up as to whether they think this or is not enough, but I know they were in contact with the admins for this and have not been banned from speaking about it in any way. The fact that it happens nearly two decades ago is a big factor, I think.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:58
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Mors Rattus posted:So far, the victim has not spoken up as to whether they think this or is not enough, but I know they were in contact with the admins for this and have not been banned from speaking about it in any way. I don't think any of the people posting about it on RPGnet are claiming to be the victim themselves.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:01
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't think any of the people posting about it on RPGnet are claiming to be the victim themselves. Uh you realize this was kicked off by Matt's victim speaking up there, right
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Oct 24, 2017 15:02
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Mors Rattus posted:Uh That person isn't claiming to be the victim; just to know about it.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:04
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Did you get that straight from them? Because that was not at all how I read those posts.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:07
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Rand Brittain posted:That person isn't claiming to be the victim; just to know about it. The first post is written in a 3rd person "I have a friend" sort of way, the rest of them are all first person, talking about how she should have gone to the cops and what not.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:15
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Kurieg posted:The first post is written in a 3rd person "I have a friend" sort of way, the rest of them are all first person, talking about how she should have gone to the cops and what not. It looks like it could go either way, upon re-reading the posts. I guess I was factoring in some things I heard from other sources, so I can't really say.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:18
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