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DoW2 was not that great either as far as pure gameplay goes. We are dealing with a series whose strong point is you get to see the cool looking nerd armies murder each other. When the best part of the game isn’t the gameplay you’ve got yourself an ok game at best.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:11
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What do people even want in RTS these days? I like base-building and decent story with good voice acting, like Warcraft 3 and DoW 1 but dont know if I'm the minority that doesnt care about Multiplayer
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Oct 24, 2017 17:41
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They should have just gone whole hog in on making a MOBA RTS. Give each player a commander and 3 squads with teams of 10 players vs 10 players. You can even leave out the ai fodder units that Dota has. I feel like you can tell from the final Dow product there was internal struggle where they almost went down this road but at some point they bailed and went to a more standard RTS format. Shame because I feel like that game would have been cool as gently caress. It also is a good setup for selling more smaller size content dlcs which all devs are striving towards. Hell even make it f2p with limited commander/squad picks
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Oct 24, 2017 17:48
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frajaq posted:What do people even want in RTS these days? I like base-building and decent story with good voice acting, like Warcraft 3 and DoW 1 but dont know if I'm the minority that doesnt care about Multiplayer Same. The only 2 games I can think of that came out, other than DoW3, that fit that criteria in the past couple years(not counting remasters) are Homeworld Deserts of Kharak and Ashes of Singularity(which is not considered to be all that great).
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Oct 24, 2017 17:49
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40k would be the natural setting for a MOBA anyway, but the lovely one they tried to make died in beta. It'd also be great for an MMO, but the good one of those that was being made got canned when THQ went bankrupt, and we got a lovely shooter instead. Why do they so consistently miss the mark on 40k games. 
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Oct 24, 2017 17:53
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frajaq posted:What do people even want in RTS these days? I like base-building and decent story with good voice acting, like Warcraft 3 and DoW 1 but dont know if I'm the minority that doesnt care about Multiplayer No you're in the majority that doesn't care about multiplayer. As for what people want - they want a good campaign, coop and skirmish mode and a good UI. And sadly most of the current crop of RTS games falls flat on almost all of them.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:53
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frajaq posted:What do people even want in RTS these days? I like base-building and decent story with good voice acting, like Warcraft 3 and DoW 1 but dont know if I'm the minority that doesnt care about Multiplayer I love Starcraft 2's Co-op commander mode, I would've enjoyed something like that in DoW3. I've had way more fun with that mode than any other RTS multiplayer experience I can remember.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:57
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frajaq posted:What do people even want in RTS these days? I like base-building and decent story with good voice acting, like Warcraft 3 and DoW 1 but dont know if I'm the minority that doesnt care about Multiplayer You just named two of my favorite RTS campaigns in history so yeah more of that would be great, although anyone making an RTS campaign as massive as WC3 is just a pipe dream these days. I'm generally not a multiplayer guy but DoW2 managed to get hundreds of hours out of me. It's like it was tailor made for me, no base building so I don't have to focus on anything but the battles and micro that was more about smart positioning rather then fully utilizing a million different active abilities. In 3v3 battles still reached epic scales while keeping things manageable with the smaller armies for each player and also easing multiplayer anxiety by having teammates to pick up your slack if need be. Relic must have done something right if it got someone like me, who's normally deathly afraid of even trying multiplayer, to play so much. This is the direction they should have continued following.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:29
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Captain Beans posted:They should have just gone whole hog in on making a MOBA RTS. Give each player a commander and 3 squads with teams of 10 players vs 10 players. You can even leave out the ai fodder units that Dota has. Total War: Arena but DOW 3 skin then eh? 
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Oct 24, 2017 18:51
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Captain Beans posted:I feel like you can tell from the final Dow product there was internal struggle where they almost went down this road but at some point they bailed and went to a more standard RTS format. Shame because I feel like that game would have been cool as gently caress. It also is a good setup for selling more smaller size content dlcs which all devs are striving towards. Hell even make it f2p with limited commander/squad picks I remember for the build-up to DoW2 had one of the lead Devs (Ebbert, I believe) coming out and saying how it was going to be closer to the fluff, more brutal, etc. You could tell that there was a clear vision for it (and some pre-alpha render stuff was ridiculously cool) and though it missed the mark on release because of horrible MP balance, it was still a cool game that had fans in mind. DoW3, from every Dev diary I saw, felt like the Devs were apologizing to fans of the franchise. I'm not sure if that was a "develop-by-committee" thing or if there was pressure to make it an e-sport but every criticism about lack of sync-kills, no terrain deformation, not going back to DoW1 with DoW2 elements, or 'dumb-ing' the game down, etc. was met with "don't worry, it's still DoW with the WH40k IP." There was one video where the devs talked about the lack of sync-kills and how they were torn about it. However, sync-kills added "random elements" and "we're only cool for the first few times you see it." Instead, they were going to make sure the mayhem was over-the-top enough that you didn't miss sync-kills. After playing it over the weekend, I can't remember a single death animation or special ability that made me go "that must have hurt." I hope that DoW3 does just good enough that they make a 4th but badly enough that they go in a completely different direction.
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Oct 24, 2017 21:07
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I think the best RTSes have a healthy bit of lore. Age of empires, warcraft, command and conquer, etc. Even robotic Korean superstars in esports with 500apm have a favorite unit or hero. So lol that they apparently made DOW3 with a lame story and only 3 races
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Oct 24, 2017 22:49
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To be fair to them, those 3 races are actually pretty drat complex with the doctrine and elite systems.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:02
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I'll give this game credit for one thing, it feels a lot more responsive than the previous DoWs. It's more than a bit jarring to go back to DoW2 and order a group of marines to attack only to have them play reloading or looking around animations as often as actually shooting or trying to attack with a melee unit and having them struggle to line up with the enemy before they can attack. How wonderful it would be if DoW4 is simply DoW2 with 3's smoothness.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:04
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And some Tau.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:06
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Dr. VooDoo posted:DoW2 was a good evolution of the game to add more tactics and strategy to the series. DoW3 was pretty much a massive step back in order to emulate Starcraft because esports Disagree about DoW2 being a good evolution from DoW. Agreed they hosed up DoW3. Agreed the Warhammer franchise generally makes terrible games.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:57
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People look back on DoW2 waaaaaay too fondly. I played it since the beta and not only did it massively change between then and release (beta DoW being far more deadly to infantry, like all those realism mods) but the game was also panned for releasing with a smidgen of races. It really was another game that evolved a lot with time (same with COH 2) and I really can't understand the cognitive dissonance that surrounds that face and DoW 3 doing the same thing.
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Oct 25, 2017 00:08
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Det_no posted:People look back on DoW2 waaaaaay too fondly. I played it since the beta and not only did it massively change between then and release (beta DoW being far more deadly to infantry, like all those realism mods) but the game was also panned for releasing with a smidgen of races. It really was another game that evolved a lot with time (same with COH 2) and I really can't understand the cognitive dissonance that surrounds that face and DoW 3 doing the same thing. ..."A smidgen" being four, same as DOW1, and more than the average RTS that's not something like AOE?
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Oct 25, 2017 00:28
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Det_no posted:People look back on DoW2 waaaaaay too fondly. I played it since the beta and not only did it massively change between then and release (beta DoW being far more deadly to infantry, like all those realism mods) but the game was also panned for releasing with a smidgen of races. It really was another game that evolved a lot with time (same with COH 2) and I really can't understand the cognitive dissonance that surrounds that face and DoW 3 doing the same thing. 4 races in the base game is a smidgen? Did people forget that it took 3 expansions for DoW1 to have 9? It started with 4 as well. DoW2 biggest problems were with balance, DoW3 on the other hand could be perfectly balanced right now and I still wouldn't want to touch it. It needs far greater changes than what DoW2 went through.
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Oct 25, 2017 00:32
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Mordja posted:..."A smidgen" being four, same as DOW1, and more than the average RTS that's not something like AOE? And five less than DoW 1, you mean. Which is what it was panned for, with no regard to the fact that half the DoW 1 races came with expansions. Now DoW III got blasted for having 3, regardless of the fact that the game has more units than ever before or that modern assets are harder to make. The whole argument is stupid.
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Oct 25, 2017 00:32
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Senjuro posted:4 races in the base game is a smidgen? Did people forget that it took 3 expansions for DoW1 to have 9? It started with 4 as well. DoW1 started with 3.25 because CSM were pretty much carbon copies of the regular SM in the original release.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:42
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Khisanth Magus posted:DoW1 started with 3.25 because CSM were pretty much carbon copies of the regular SM in the original release. Which makes it a million times more confusing why DOW3 couldn't do that. Some people hate SM but would love to play CSM.
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Oct 25, 2017 03:17
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FooF posted:I remember for the build-up to DoW2 had one of the lead Devs (Ebbert, I believe) coming out and saying how it was going to be closer to the fluff, more brutal, etc. You could tell that there was a clear vision for it (and some pre-alpha render stuff was ridiculously cool) and though it missed the mark on release because of horrible MP balance, it was still a cool game that had fans in mind. I remember the devs saying they hate you and all gamers and made it as a big ol gently caress you so it must be true and also they’re right.
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Oct 25, 2017 03:23
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Billzasilver posted:Which makes it a million times more confusing why DOW3 couldn't do that. Some people hate SM but would love to play CSM. Cash grab DLC is why. They just didn't realize they had a DOA product on their hands and there's basically nothing that will salvage this game's multiplayer. DoW 1 and 2 were fun games in their own ways, I think overall I preferred the look and feel of 1 over 2 mostly because 2 failed to bring the same visceral feeling that CoH managed to bring.
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Oct 25, 2017 12:26
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Stanley Pain posted:Cash grab DLC is why. They just didn't realize they had a DOA product on their hands and there's basically nothing that will salvage this game's multiplayer. Except that's bullshit. People have been doomsaying/asking for race dlc from the start but even before launch they'd made it clear that races would be in expansions like they always have been.
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Oct 25, 2017 14:58
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Maybe the expansion brings all the good things we want. Everybody on board the hype train, we're going to the far reaches of the Imperium to bring you a dozen new races. Also playable Squats.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:22
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b-but the multiplayer balance!!!!
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Oct 25, 2017 17:37
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Artum posted:Except that's bullshit. People have been doomsaying/asking for race dlc from the start but even before launch they'd made it clear that races would be in expansions like they always have been. My point is that by only releasing 3 @ launch they can gouge their customer with more $$ DLCs 
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Oct 25, 2017 17:44
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Stanley Pain posted:My point is that by only releasing 3 @ launch they can gouge their customer with more $$ DLCs Which they never intended to do, so still not really sure what point you are making.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:30
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One of my favorite dumb DoW fan habits is crying that the next iteration in the series doesn't have as many races at launch as the previous entry did(after several expansions and five years of patching). DoW3 has a ton of problems and it's not very good but I don't really fault them for trying to keep the initial balance load manageable. Each of the three races currently in have a bunch of unique game mechanics and then you have the gigantically-complex-from-a-balance-standpoint doctrine/elite system to worry about, with every faction having their own completely unique set of doctrines and elites that can be used in different combinations to wildly alter the faction's performance. Especially given that it's a new game I can definitely see merit in keeping the initial workload relatively low until they feel they have a comfortable handle on how the game plays out in the wild and then adding more races later in expansions(like both other DoW games did, with DoW1 having a nearly unprecedented four loving expansions). You can go "but who cares about multiplayer balance  " but the game was very, very clearly designed with multiplayer in focus and singleplayer as an afterthought.
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Oct 26, 2017 01:09
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Kanos posted:You can go "but who cares about multiplayer balance Yes, it was, and that makes it a poor DoW game when every other entry in the series had fun single player campaigns that were worth replaying.
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Oct 26, 2017 01:34
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Say what? DoW campaigns have always been running along corridors to trigger the next script or literally skirmish matches with no plot or anything at all. Not sure what made them so supposedly grandiose.
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Oct 26, 2017 02:15
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Mostly the dumb good Warhammer voice acting. That's what we really buy the games for. Isn't Warhammer like, the most unbalanced game in the world?
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Oct 26, 2017 02:24
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Billzasilver posted:Mostly the dumb good Warhammer voice acting. That's what we really buy the games for. Khorne Berserkers and Anti tank lasguns in Winter Assault. Dawn of Eldar.
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Oct 26, 2017 02:41
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All I want is
Is that too much to ask  The game is fixable if they were bothered, but I doubt they are.
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Oct 26, 2017 11:59
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Det_no posted:Say what? DoW campaigns have always been running along corridors to trigger the next script or literally skirmish matches with no plot or anything at all. Not sure what made them so supposedly grandiose. Awesome characters with great voice acting like OG Gabriel and Sinnnnndri along with the best music in the series made DoW1's campaign be more than the sum of it's parts.
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Oct 26, 2017 12:33
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Mackers posted:The game is fixable if they were bothered. It isn't. It really isn't. Our only hope is that Iron Harvest is a success and the devs are awarded some 40k IP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT29OGk_Byc
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Oct 26, 2017 13:28
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I agree with Kanos here, game could have 2 races or 10 races and I still wouldn't enjoy it. In the end it's way too "build stuff and throw it at enemies" driven. Like, I can't pinpoint why I dislike it, perhaps I'm too used to the COH/DOW2 franchise. It looks cool and the Elites are fun, I hope it doesn't die and they can steer this game.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:22
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Senjuro posted:Awesome characters with great voice acting like OG Gabriel and Sinnnnndri along with the best music in the series made DoW1's campaign be more than the sum of it's parts. I actually prefer Inon Zur's music for the expansion packs over Jeremy Soule's OG soundtrack. Jeremy Soule can only sound like Jeremy Soule, while Zur's music is more chaotic and diverse. Plus, Imperial Guard themes.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:27
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turboraton posted:I agree with Kanos here, game could have 2 races or 10 races and I still wouldn't enjoy it. In the end it's way too "build stuff and throw it at enemies" driven. I am also pissed the RTS I purchased was focused on building an army then using it to fight the army my enemy built.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:48
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I think the game is flawed, but I don't think it's the disaster a lot of folks are making it out to be. I enjoy booting up DoW3 over 2 or 1 because it plays out faster and the elite/doctrine system helps even the same race play very differently from one game to the next. I think the claim of 'make it like StarCraft 2 to try to be an e-sport' is woefully overplayed. None of the DoW games, or even CoH for that matter, were ever played at the same level of e-sports as Starcraft, let alone Starcraft 2. I don't think Relic ever deluded themselves that somehow DoW3 would make the difference. If they did anything to make it like SC2, it was to emulate some of the better aspects of its design to create a faster game more suited to the limited amount of time people have to play games as adults. I had a fuckload of time to screw off with DoW1 in college - I can't say the same now that I'm playing DoW3 as an adult. Any game's focus on multiplayer is to give it longevity with its playerbase - no SP campaign, no matter how good it is, is going to be the primary reason why people keep playing RTS games. People will keep playing RTS games via random matchmaking, vs. AI, or playing with friends because they offer the most variance in outcomes. RTS SP Campaigns are usually just a game of inevitability - if you keep at it, you will win (eventually). I don't think I ever felt close to losing a single mission in DoW2 (but in the interests of disclosure, I never played anything harder than Normal). Dark Crusade probably came the closest, but then you could just game the system so that you spent extra time on the map fortifying major points to make defense missions a cinch. Regardless - if the interest is on longevity via MP, vs. AI, or with friends, you do need some eye towards balancing races in multiplayer - it's not enjoyable if the AI or other players constantly stomp you with the apex build, and it's not encouraging as a player to keep dicking around with the game because you stumbled on all of the trap/underpowered options. One thing I think is impossible to disagree on is this - the game's models were made with a lot of time and love. There are so many great details on models that are easy to miss - from the Melta Drill burrowing into the ground at the end of SM building construction, the constant treadmill of ammo spilling off the Pile O'Gunz, to the fact that the G/Morkanaut are amazing giant robots that can ROCKET PUNCH - that's it clear that they cared about making the game look good, especially next to its contemporaries and even future games in the genre.
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Oct 26, 2017 20:54
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