|
Nah he poo poo stop defending him!!!
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 11:15 |
|
|
twodot posted:No, those were bad, the function of Senate leadership shouldn't be the protection of vulnerable careers. Democrats publicly accepting bad policies for political advancement is the core problem with their messaging. No one believes they mean what they say, partially because of people like you openly claiming that allowing Democrats to take positions contrary to the party is good. Why bother having a political party if the only policy you won't compromise on is getting elected, and you objectively suck at getting elected anyways? Yeah you're to comfy to imagine a game can be unwinnable. We've already been over this today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:33
|
|
|
Condiv posted:senators aren't jeapordizing their seats by standing against a wildly unpopular and reviled republican shitbag. dems need to stop being spineless wimps and giving into republicans even when the republicans are unbelievably unpopular Lets see how many democrats vote for the tax cuts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:41
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah you're to comfy to imagine a game can be unwinnable. We've already been over this today. edit: I also enjoy the switch from "Your criticism of a woman doing a thing is sexist" to "Your criticism of a woman and a man holds the same flaws, why are you being boring? I want you to produce a novel argument while talking about the man, because that definitely wouldn't be sexist.". twodot fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Oct 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:42
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah you're to comfy to imagine a game can be unwinnable. We've already been over this today. gosh, I wonder who murdered your av
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:43
|
|
|
Kavros posted:It is not actually very helpful and suggests you don't understand my point, which is perfectly compatible with the idea that Flake is poo poo. there is no need for nuance when viewing flake. he's a monster, he was perfectly fine with being a monster for a long time. all that needs to be said about the republican scumsucker is that he's poo poo, his party is poo poo, and it's ruled by a dayglo orange pissbaby
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:55
|
|
|
twodot posted:Let's suppose the game is unwinnable, what do we win by pretending like sacrificing on policy in order to keep Schumer's colleagues comfortably employed is sound leadership? Like I don't have any evidence that setting and adhering to a clear set of principles that are both good and can consistently be messaged to voters is a winning strategy, but it seems worth trying given blatant political ambition has failed as a strategy. Lmao at this random bullshit. Is not listening to the content of criticism your coping mechanism? Sorry your delicate baby skin cost you ten dollars today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 01:58
|
|
|
Just because someone spent their lives doing awful poo poo doesn't mean we can't recognize the one good thing they did. I mean, even Hitler wound up killing Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:03
|
|
|
Push El Burrito posted:Just because someone spent their lives doing awful poo poo doesn't mean we can't recognize the one good thing they did. I mean, even Hitler wound up killing Hitler. we don't have to recognize the one single thing they did that any decent human being would've done nearly a year ago either especially when he decided to stay in long enough to vote to rip away healthcare from people. jeff flake can go gently caress himself
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:09
|
|
|
Flake isn't just taking some principled stand he has specific policy disagreements with Trump, policy disagreements from the right. He says right in the speech that he worries the Trump GOP isn't devoted to "limited government and free markets" or "devoted to free trade." He also talks a lot about how Trump isn't sufficiently devoted to the traditional GOP foreign policy which is even worse than the Trump foreign policy has been.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:09
|
|
|
Condiv posted:there is no need for nuance when viewing flake. he's a monster, he was perfectly fine with being a monster for a long time. all that needs to be said about the republican scumsucker is that he's poo poo, his party is poo poo, and it's ruled by a dayglo orange pissbaby You don't have any requirement to think any differently of Flake, but there is some appreciative nuance going on with what pushed Flake to this and what the conditions and circumstances mean for the GOP's coming fundraiser ultimatum to provide the Great Brownbacking of 2017. I'd rather at least address that, or pick it apart and observe the theories around it, because it is at least marginally important to awakening the possibility of actual GOP infighting at a time where I think most of us greatly need actual GOP infighting. I also like to look at and talk about how situations like Flake's primary odds are representative of the outcome of cyclical radicalization within a party's ideological base.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:10
|
|
|
Push El Burrito posted:Just because someone spent their lives doing awful poo poo doesn't mean we can't recognize the one good thing they did. I mean, even Hitler wound up killing Hitler. That's a really good point, and to build on it, we have to make progress and growth rewarding. Do we want people to make good decisions or keep making bad ones? This original sin approach to politicians changing their policy or rhetoric is just shallow team politics. It assumes that as soon as you praise someone once you can never criticize them again. Flake's good because he's agitating Donnie. We want GOP infighting, it weakens them. Schumer opening up to income equality is good, it means he's listening to the people he represents. If you're holding your breath for politicians who only take progressive stances out of the goodness of their hearts, well, you're doing the gene pool a favor. Politics is about making incentives align with policy goals - from a 5 cent tax on plastic bags to a reelection bid. If politicians are incentivized to say no to Donnie or yes to socialists that's a victory, you sad sacks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:12
|
|
|
The "Milkshake Duck" poo poo that has infested online political discourse is a big cause of this as well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:15
|
|
|
there's no rehabilitating a republican who wanted to tear what meager healthcare poorer americans have left to give tax cuts to the rich. sorry if there was anything praiseworthy in flake's empty shell he would've been one of the no votes on skinny repeal also, perez posted something I agree with https://twitter.com/dncpress/status/922940836840656896
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:21
|
|
|
RuanGacho posted:It seems to imply that SV is in a reality bubble, which seems correct? A tech driven economy is a business driven economy. Tech produces tech kits for existing business or turns them into new businesses. For all the "disruption" and "innovation" tech is just business as it's been for decades. Tech has no answer to the current problem of business being accountable only to shareholders and does nothing to move us towards businesses having accountability to all stake holders.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:21
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:The "Milkshake Duck" poo poo that has infested online political discourse is a big cause of this as well. Yeah! Partly we're in a transitional phase where a lot of racist/sexist/predatory stuff is finally becoming unacceptable in the mainstream, but people who are shitheads can't keep it a secret for long. No need to borrow trouble.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:22
|
|
|
MaxxBot posted:Flake isn't just taking some principled stand he has specific policy disagreements with Trump, policy disagreements from the right. He says right in the speech that he worries the Trump GOP isn't devoted to "limited government and free markets" or "devoted to free trade." He also talks a lot about how Trump isn't sufficiently devoted to the traditional GOP foreign policy which is even worse than the Trump foreign policy has been. The correct strategy is to publicly encourage division among the Right and praise Flake and then in private bash the gently caress out of him. Also the moment the Right doesn’t have power bash him. And in the shower. Etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:27
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:The correct strategy is to publicly encourage division among the Right and praise Flake and then in private bash the gently caress out of him. Also the moment the Right doesn’t have power bash him. And in the shower. Etc. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:32
|
|
|
Chilichimp posted:And another thing on this loving vein that you can't seem to stop loving sucking on, this stupid bill was an attack angle Trump made on Hillary during the campaign to justify his own support of a bill that's purpose was SPECIFICALLY to punish freedom of expression. Maybe Democratic politicians should stop supporting horrible Republican ideas because all it does is give political cover to horrible Republican ideas.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:33
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's a really good point, and to build on it, we have to make progress and growth rewarding. Do we want people to make good decisions or keep making bad ones? This original sin approach to politicians changing their policy or rhetoric is just shallow team politics. It assumes that as soon as you praise someone once you can never criticize them again. Flake's good because he's agitating Donnie. We want GOP infighting, it weakens them. Schumer opening up to income equality is good, it means he's listening to the people he represents. If you're holding your breath for politicians who only take progressive stances out of the goodness of their hearts, well, you're doing the gene pool a favor. Politics is about making incentives align with policy goals - from a 5 cent tax on plastic bags to a reelection bid. If politicians are incentivized to say no to Donnie or yes to socialists that's a victory, you sad sacks. I am sorry, but this gets things exactly backwards. What you are actually rewarding in this case is the extremely negative behavior of the republican party. The rehabilitation of Flake is like the rehabilitation of David David Frum, or George Bush, or a series of horrible republicans. The message that rehabilitating Flake sends isn't "denounce bad republicans and get rewarded." It's "be as lovely as you can possibly be while in office, give in to all the worse impulses of your party, because as long as you are not literally the last one supporting those bad policies you can revel in the love and adoration of the pundit class." The message it sends isn't "I will be rewarded if I denounce Trump." It's "it's ok to support incredibly popular policies and hold lovely positions, because if it ever gets to the point where it seems like they will sink your career, you can just make an empty centrist speech and people will fawn over you and treat you like an honorable, principled person." If you want to reward good behavior, the position should be "supporting consistently good policies over time."
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:34
|
|
|
You read the speech? Flake's a poo poo head, but asserting: We have all been complicit, isn't wrong.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:39
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's a really good point, and to build on it, we have to make progress and growth rewarding. Do we want people to make good decisions or keep making bad ones? This original sin approach to politicians changing their policy or rhetoric is just shallow team politics. It assumes that as soon as you praise someone once you can never criticize them again. Flake's good because he's agitating Donnie. We want GOP infighting, it weakens them. Schumer opening up to income equality is good, it means he's listening to the people he represents. If you're holding your breath for politicians who only take progressive stances out of the goodness of their hearts, well, you're doing the gene pool a favor. Politics is about making incentives align with policy goals - from a 5 cent tax on plastic bags to a reelection bid. If politicians are incentivized to say no to Donnie or yes to socialists that's a victory, you sad sacks. My problem with this is that Flake or any other GOP politician that criticizes Trump, will still back bills and policies that will hurt people. I don't think anyone should waste their time throwing props to GOP politicians simply because they are opposing Trump. Trump is the manifestation of the GOP, after all. He's just crass and stupid.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:39
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:You read the speech? congratulations, you have worse political instincts than tom perez
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:49
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:You read the speech? doesn't matter. it doesn't erase a career of shittyness. if jeb was elected instead of trump, flake would've been happily repealing obamacare, earning a lovely rating from the NAACP, trying to constitutionally define marriage as between one man and one woman, and more lovely things. he hasn't changed, and he doesn't deserve praise cause he managed to say trump bad
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:49
|
|
|
What we say about them on a dead paid forum has about zero effect on how politicians act. Cheer on republican infighting, but no Trump denunciations from republicans have involved an actual change in personal politics as far as I'm aware.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:55
|
|
|
Wraith of J.O.I. posted:congratulations, you have worse political instincts than tom perez I'll repeat, did you read it? Condiv posted:doesn't matter. it doesn't erase a career of shittyness. if jeb was elected instead of trump, flake would've been happily repealing obamacare, earning a lovely rating from the NAACP, trying to constitutionally define marriage as between one man and one woman, and more lovely things. he hasn't changed, and he doesn't deserve praise cause he managed to say trump bad It does not erase his shittiness. But it is cracking open a door out of fascism, and we should encourage them right through (and boot thier asses on the way). Basically, I think lightning knight has got it right.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 02:59
|
|
|
If anyone had any doubt about Flake's sincerity...you'd be right. https://twitter.com/ddayen/status/923005501708705792
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:02
|
|
|
lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:04
|
|
|
Who saw that coming?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:08
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:I'll repeat, did you read it? Arkhams Razor posted:If anyone had any doubt about Flake's sincerity...you'd be right. wow that got settled quickly
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
twodot posted:No, those were bad, the function of Senate leadership shouldn't be the protection of vulnerable careers. Democrats publicly accepting bad policies for political advancement is the core problem with their messaging. No one believes they mean what they say, partially because of people like you openly claiming that allowing Democrats to take positions contrary to the party is good. Why bother having a political party if the only policy you won't compromise on is getting elected, and you objectively suck at getting elected anyways? But the Democrats could do nothing but accept the nominees, they had no power with which to oppose them. If Schumer could have stopped the nominees but refused to do so then your criticism would be valid, and I would be right alongside you condemning him, but that isn't the world we live in. The soldier who charges the enemy camp alone and without orders isn't brave, he's just an idiot. Democrats won't accomplish anything but harm with meaningless stands that do nothing but embolden GOP challengers. Heidi Heitkamp's constituents don't want her obstructing Trump needlessly; if it matters then Schemer should twist her arm and if she loses her seat over it so be it. But why blow your load when it will accomplish nothing? For the record also: when it looked like it might matter, such as with Betsy Devos, Schumer got all the votes he could.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
Arkhams Razor posted:If anyone had any doubt about Flake's sincerity...you'd be right. It's almost as if Trump and Flake agree on loving over poor people but disagree on starting nuclear war and loving over international trade.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:10
|
|
|
white sauce posted:wow that got settled quickly He's still a poo poo head. His poo poo headedness is not relevant to the point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:10
|
|
|
joepinetree posted:I am sorry, but this gets things exactly backwards. What you are actually rewarding in this case is the extremely negative behavior of the republican party. The rehabilitation of Flake is like the rehabilitation of David David Frum, or George Bush, or a series of horrible republicans. Nobody's rewarding Flake, you twit. Have you ever heard the phrase "never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake?" It's good that Republicans are infighting. It is okay to say that something is good, even if other things are bad. Ogmius815 posted:But the Democrats could do nothing but accept the nominees, they had no power with which to oppose them. If Schumer could have stopped the nominees but refused to do so then your criticism would be valid, and I would be right alongside you condemning him, but that isn't the world we live in. The soldier who charges the enemy camp alone and without orders isn't brave, he's just an idiot. Democrats won't accomplish anything but harm with meaningless stands that do nothing but embolden GOP challengers. Heidi Heitkamp's constituents don't want her obstructing Trump needlessly; if it matters then Schemer should twist her arm and if she loses her seat over it so be it. But why blow your load when it will accomplish nothing? Yeah twodot, I'm really not sure what alternative outcome you think could have happened there. Republicans had a big enough majority to achieve what they wanted regardless of how Dems voted. The options were allow some hall passes and keep D seats in purple districts, or require unity and lose those seats to Republicans in the next election. Sometimes the game isn't winnable. I marvel at the life you must have led to never let that sink in.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:23
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:He's still a poo poo head. His poo poo headedness is not relevant to the point. It's relevant to the people he is screwing over.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:23
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:So where are the gallons of ink being spilled excoriating Chuck Schumer? I keep explaining this using very small words and you keep not getting it. What is so loving hard for you? Because you're right, you aren't a piece of poo poo like NewForumsSoftware or a shrieking nutball like Condiv. You're a normal, thinking person. And even you can't understand the issue here. That's how insidious propaganda is. But I do understand the issue, and I'm not spending a bunch of words excoriating Clinton. Like, I agree the focus on Pelosi/Clinton is definitely disproportionate (and the focus on the former is particularly pointless). I feel like this exchange was mostly just the result of you (understandably) interpreting my question about Pelosi's skill as a sort of "Just Asking Questions (but my mind is already totally made up that she's bad)" pseudo-skepticism. In general, focusing on specific personalities (rather than a more general shared ideology and policy agenda) is a big problem with discourse on the left IMO, though it's largely due to the media and people responding to what they read/see in it. There's also a tendency to get reflexively defensive (though I think people of all ideologies are guilty of this to varying degrees) instead of taking criticism seriously. A good example of this is some of the exchanges I've witnessed with poster Koala's March; like, she's someone on the left who I think even voted for Sanders in the primary, but some people reflexively assumed she was some sort of centrist shill just because she said something critical of a post a leftist made. I think it's important to distinguish between the portion of people on the left who are like this and the movement as a whole (which is generally less bigoted/sexist when compared with mainstream liberalism), but leftists also need to acknowledge what they're doing wrong instead of instantly saying "BUT BUT NINA TURNER" in response to concerns from PoC and what have you. Even if you believe the radical left has more to offer disadvantaged people of all stripes than mainstream liberals (which I do), that doesn't mean there aren't still problems that need to be addressed. Like, if you put yourself in the shoes of someone unfamiliar with leftism, how is it going to look if you raise a concern and a leftist immediately assumes you're a centrist shill?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Nobody's rewarding Flake, you twit. Have you ever heard the phrase "never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake?" It's good that Republicans are infighting. It is okay to say that something is good, even if other things are bad. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's a really good point, and to build on it, we have to make progress and growth rewarding. Do we want people to make good decisions or keep making bad ones? This original sin approach to politicians changing their policy or rhetoric is just shallow team politics. It assumes that as soon as you praise someone once you can never criticize them again. Flake's good because he's agitating Donnie. We want GOP infighting, it weakens them. Schumer opening up to income equality is good, it means he's listening to the people he represents. If you're holding your breath for politicians who only take progressive stances out of the goodness of their hearts, well, you're doing the gene pool a favor. Politics is about making incentives align with policy goals - from a 5 cent tax on plastic bags to a reelection bid. If politicians are incentivized to say no to Donnie or yes to socialists that's a victory, you sad sacks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:35
|
|
|
Ogmius815 posted:But the Democrats could do nothing but accept the nominees, they had no power with which to oppose them. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah twodot, I'm really not sure what alternative outcome you think could have happened there. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Lmao at this random bullshit. Is not listening to the content of criticism your coping mechanism? Sorry your delicate baby skin cost you ten dollars today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:52
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:Who saw that coming? Who didn’t?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 11:15 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/JordanChariton/status/922957596293726210
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2017 03:57
|
|
