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Vincent Valentine posted:I'm perfect, perfect in every way. A flawless code master, who's only mistakes are simple and benign and fixed before committed. Pretty much by definition it was a feature they needed, otherwise you wouldn't have deployed it to prod.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:49
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I broke some of the authentication required to withdraw money from a major financial institution, any answer you gave was accepted. This was while I was a tech lead for the project. Now I just translate protos into other protos
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Oct 25, 2017 00:12
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I once made an update to prod, then went to the bathroom, and came back to find that I’d brought down ShoeBuy’s shopping cart. My favorite story came from a friend. He didn’t have a traditional comp sci education, and built a logging system that put the new log lines to the start of the log file. After enough visitors to the website, the log file got too big to load everything and write a new line within 30 seconds, and the site just started timing out. A government website on Election Day.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:26
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lifg posted:$120k. Sorry for just catching up with this thread, but what is the '120k' for NYC and SF?
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Oct 25, 2017 01:50
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lifg posted:I once made an update to prod, then went to the bathroom, and came back to find that I’d brought down ShoeBuy’s shopping cart. A coworker of mine once somehow misconfigured his logging code such that each log message created a new appender to the same file. Quadratic log growth!
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Oct 25, 2017 02:46
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Steve French posted:A coworker of mine once somehow misconfigured his logging code such that each log message created a new appender to the same file. Quadratic log growth! Okay this is my new favorite logging story.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:56
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Coworker of mine recently commited "<ticket number> fixed the bug about <thing>git push" as a commit message and I gave her some grief about it  And made me really really want to push "Help I'm trapped in a software factory" as a commit message
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Oct 25, 2017 07:40
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Steve French posted:A coworker of mine once somehow misconfigured his logging code such that each log message created a new appender to the same file. Quadratic log growth! How are you supposed to have confidence that your logger is working if it's not logging that it's logging that it's logging...?!
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Oct 25, 2017 13:36
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Is this the right thread for people who are not (yet) working as programmers to discuss learning to program? Is there a thread for that if not this one? Stuff like just talking about the challenges of it (both academically and outside of that) and comparing resources, sharing success, etc.
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Oct 25, 2017 15:42
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Go for it!
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Oct 25, 2017 16:20
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OK, great. Right now I'm in the Coursera/University of Toronto course "Learn to Program: The Fundamentals." It's meant to be a seven week course, but I started on Saturday and I'm in the middle of week 3. I'm also supplementing with codeacademy for more keyboard miles, even though I think stuff like codeacadamy might not be super helpful since it's a lot of hand holding. After I finish this course, I'll probably do the follow up from the same team (Learn to Program: Designing Quality Code), but then I'm not sure what next. I'm comparing different Coursera specializations and EdX micromasters programs. I assume that it probably doesn't matter which I choose, as long as I stick with it. Last year, I got a bit more than half way through the FreeCodeCamp font end certification. I got through the basic algorithm scripting. I got distracted with work deadlines and dropped that, and I want to pick up the study of programming again. Right now I'm an accountant, and I do OK. I make $57k with no benefits. I'm not hurting for a new job, at least right now. I passed the CPA exam fairly easily. I'm wondering how much additional math study I'll need. I took calculus for business in college and got an A, but that was like 7 years ago now. I don't know that I could say I confidently remember any of it. I'm sure the time will come soon where I'm struggling with the actual material, but what I struggle with right now is admitting to anyone I'm interested in this. I'm already a "professional," it's not like it's programming or poverty for me, at least not in the immediate future. I find my current job so completely devoid of meaning, but I obviously can't tell any of my colleagues this. My father is actually a very successful developer but I don't want to mention anything of it to him unless and until I progress to a certain point. Also I turn 35 in like two weeks, and I partly struggle with the idea that I'm too old to get into this. I don't know if that's true.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:21
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You will need almost zero math knowledge. Just some basic knowledge of predicate logic. You are not too old.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:29
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lifg posted:You will need almost zero math knowledge. Just some basic knowledge of predicate logic. I started typing up an effortpost, but this is basically the sentiment I was trying to pass along. If you're having any trouble finding work once you're "ready", definitely look at places selling account software, or software companies with any internal billing stuff. I'm sure they'd be very interested in a developer who knows the field already. Build some cool stuff that solves a problem in your life, no matter how minor. Being able to talk about it in depth at interview time, with the kind of engagement that comes from personal craft, will Get You A Job.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:41
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Hellblazer187 posted:I'm sure the time will come soon where I'm struggling with the actual material, but what I struggle with right now is admitting to anyone I'm interested in this. I'm already a "professional," it's not like it's programming or poverty for me, at least not in the immediate future. I find my current job so completely devoid of meaning, but I obviously can't tell any of my colleagues this. My father is actually a very successful developer but I don't want to mention anything of it to him unless and until I progress to a certain point. I don't know why you struggle to admit you are interested. Sure, maybe it's not optimal to bring up how much your current job sucks with your employer, but unless you and your father don't get along, why not bring it up? If he's very successful, he probably has more useful things to say than us dumb Goons, and I'm sure he'd love to go on and on and on about how to be a better developer. Yeah, it will be an uphill struggle starting from scratch now, but it won't get easier in the future and if you are interested and put in the effort, there's no reason you can't succeed. Be prepared to be getting told what to do or struggle to keep up with kids younger than you, but it should only take a few years of dedicated effort to reach parity with most of them. You already have learned a significant amount of what being a developer is by learning what being a professional is, lots of young developers DON'T have that skill, so try to leverage that while you are learning the technical bits.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:43
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Skandranon posted:I don't know why you struggle to admit you are interested. Sure, maybe it's not optimal to bring up how much your current job sucks with your employer, but unless you and your father don't get along, why not bring it up? Maybe his dad is disappointed he didn't get into the family business and will give him a long-winded I told you so talk. Now I'm imagining a table full of software developers at Thanksgiving all talking shop while Hellblazer187 just sighs and pokes dejectedly at his mashed potatoes.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:49
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xpander posted:I started typing up an effortpost, but this is basically the sentiment I was trying to pass along. If you're having any trouble finding work once you're "ready", definitely look at places selling account software, or software companies with any internal billing stuff. I'm sure they'd be very interested in a developer who knows the field already. Thanks! My first projects outside of course work will probably be to automate some of my own work tasks. I have to handle sometimes large client loads, which means nudging clients that aren't active. Which means I have to go to my client list, check each one, take a look at our last communication, and if it's been sufficiently long, nudge them for more data. So, simple idea but I feel like at least part of that could be automated. A lot of of other things I do tend to be repetitive. We also have some massive custom spreadsheets that do these annoying calculations for us but the spreadsheets are so enormous and take so long to open and crash frequently. And so I wonder if maybe some kind of custom tool might be better than a giant excel file. I don't honestly know the practicality of programming either of these yet but I think about it as motivation for learning this even if I don't "become a dev." I can study and become a developer or I can study and become a more lazy accountant and either is kind of OK. Quick semi-related question. Does the verb "coding" carry a different connotation than "programming"? It seems like "coding" is used mostly by people who don't do it, or people trying to sell bootcamps, but this could just be a false perception on my end.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:53
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Skandranon posted:I don't know why you struggle to admit you are interested. Sure, maybe it's not optimal to bring up how much your current job sucks with your employer, but unless you and your father don't get along, why not bring it up? If he's very successful, he probably has more useful things to say than us dumb Goons, and I'm sure he'd love to go on and on and on about how to be a better developer. We get along well. I don't know exactly why I don't want to mention it to him. I do start and stop things sometimes. Or, sometimes it takes me a few tries to stick with something. When I did pass the CPA exam, it was my third time "deciding" I was going to do it - but my first time sticking with it. So, I don't want to say anything in the early days in case I don't stick with it, and then its an embarrassing thing I said I wanted to do then didn't do. Obviously I stick with some things too - passing the CPA exam is a year long effort. It's kind of the thing where you don't want to admit being on a diet because if someone sees you with a piece of cake later it's humiliating. And, to carry the analogy further, it'd be admitting it to a 30 year personal trainer with abs of steel (my dad DEFINITELY does not have abs of steel...but you know. The analogy). You kind of want to lose 20 lbs first and then tell people about the 30 left to go. It's also entirely possible that I'm a wierdo with odd motivations. Munkeymon posted:Maybe his dad is disappointed he didn't get into the family business and will give him a long-winded I told you so talk. He's never expressed this, but yeah there's kind of the thought of "why didn't I just do this in the first place?" I decided not to go into it back in university almost specifically because he does it. Not that I don't love him greatly, but I look exactly like him and didn't want to be a clone in every resepct. Also in those days it seemed like any college degree meant you'd be OK. Had I known what the economy had in store for later, I'd definitely have studied CS or MIS and leveraged that connection for all it was worth. Completely unrelated, but I am super excited for thanksgiving because it will be my first U.S. thanksgiving in six years. Living abroad sucks. Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 18:01
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Hellblazer187 posted:Quick semi-related question. Does the verb "coding" carry a different connotation than "programming"? It seems like "coding" is used mostly by people who don't do it, or people trying to sell bootcamps, but this could just be a false perception on my end. Depends on who you ask. My take: A hobbyist might be described as a "coder" or "programmer". It carries a connotation of"implement this stuff other people designed, don't worry about the big picture" grunt work. Developer (or 'software developer') is what you call professionals. Programming is one part, but professional software developers typically have a much larger role in the process -- architecture, design, planning, etc. They (hopefully) understand why they want to solve a problem and the value of solving it, along with the skills to implement a solution. Software engineer is bullshit -- we're not engineers. Actual engineers are licensed and there's some rigor involved in obtaining the right to call yourself one. The only term I feel is derisive and I feel compelled to correct is when I'm referred to as "an IT guy" or "working in IT". [edit] Also "coder" has meaning in a medical context -- they're the people responsible for translating medical paperwork into CPT/ICD9/ICD10 codes. If you've never seen an ICD manual before, they're like telephone books consisting of codes and subcodes for every possible diagnosis. Like, "Shot in left ring finger with bullet from gun manufactured before 1923" levels of specificity. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 18:03
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Hellblazer187 posted:Quick semi-related question. Does the verb "coding" carry a different connotation than "programming"? It seems like "coding" is used mostly by people who don't do it, or people trying to sell bootcamps, but this could just be a false perception on my end. I've seen frontenders refer to writing HTML and CSS as "coding" and that's a little annoying, but nahh, there isn't really a difference. I tell non-technical people I'm a programmer, not a coder, though, because I think the former is more likely to be recognized.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:05
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Hellblazer187 posted:We get along well. I don't know exactly why I don't want to mention it to him. I do start and stop things sometimes. Or, sometimes it takes me a few tries to stick with something. When I did pass the CPA exam, it was my third time "deciding" I was going to do it - but my first time sticking with it. So, I don't want to say anything in the early days in case I don't stick with it, and then its an embarrassing thing I said I wanted to do then didn't do. Obviously I stick with some things too - passing the CPA exam is a year long effort. It's kind of the thing where you don't want to admit being on a diet because if someone sees you with a piece of cake later it's humiliating. And, to carry the analogy further, it'd be admitting it to a 30 year personal trainer with abs of steel (my dad DEFINITELY does not have abs of steel...but you know. The analogy). You kind of want to lose 20 lbs first and then tell people about the 30 left to go. It's also entirely possible that I'm a wierdo with odd motivations. Another way to look at it is if you talk to your dad about it, and he is supportive, you will then be ashamed of giving up too early and that motivation could help you push through when it gets difficult. It would have been a lot easier if I had had someone I respected in the industry to look up to and learn from, instead of learning only by making mistakes and paying for them. And I wouldn't worry too much about the clone thing... you ARE 50% cloned from his DNA, and then spent a bunch of years listening to him tell you how the world is. Your jobs is to take what is good and improve it, and remove bad parts, and it sounds like you think the software developer part was good.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:16
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Skandranon posted:And I wouldn't worry too much about the clone thing... you ARE 50% cloned from his DNA, and then spent a bunch of years listening to him tell you how the world is. Your jobs is to take what is good and improve it, and remove bad parts, and it sounds like you think the software developer part was good. Yeah, I mean this was a fear I had almost 20 years ago (Jesus loving Christ, does it feel weird being able to say a sentence like that!). If I look at the life outcomes of Hb187Sr. and Hb187Jr., I'd be remarkably better off had I been an actual clone.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:24
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Hellblazer187 posted:We also have some massive custom spreadsheets that do these annoying calculations for us but the spreadsheets are so enormous and take so long to open and crash frequently. And so I wonder if maybe some kind of custom tool might be better than a giant excel file. IME, turning spreadsheet programs (because they are, of a sort) into code in a sane language that's not (quite) classifiable as torture to maintain is very common, so that's a good start! Hellblazer187 posted:He's never expressed this, but yeah there's kind of the thought of "why didn't I just do this in the first place?" I decided not to go into it back in university almost specifically because he does it. Not that I don't love him greatly, but I look exactly like him and didn't want to be a clone in every resepct. Also in those days it seemed like any college degree meant you'd be OK. Had I known what the economy had in store for later, I'd definitely have studied CS or MIS and leveraged that connection for all it was worth. Hindsight is 20/20. My family was telling me in 2002 that the bubble had popped and there wasn't any money in programming anymore. In hindsight, they were very wrong. Also my dad and one of my brothers are accountants. We're from mirror universes here, so if you've got a goatee, you're the evil one.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:30
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Munkeymon posted:Also my dad and one of my brothers are accountants. We're from mirror universes here, so if you've got a goatee, you're the evil one. Full beard, but, uh, probably.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:44
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Hellblazer187 posted:Full beard, but, uh, probably. Accountants are allowed to have beards these days? My, the times have changed! (Worked at KPMG in 2002/2003 and facial hair was a big NO.)
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Oct 25, 2017 19:43
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Keetron posted:Accountants are allowed to have beards these days? My, the times have changed! (Worked at KPMG in 2002/2003 and facial hair was a big NO.) Do they send a note home to your parents or something?
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Oct 25, 2017 20:28
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Pixelboy posted:Do they send a note home to your parents or something? No, you are fired for something else.
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Oct 25, 2017 20:33
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Keetron posted:Accountants are allowed to have beards these days? My, the times have changed! (Worked at KPMG in 2002/2003 and facial hair was a big NO.) I work for a much smaller shop than that. I do think close cropped beard like I have is probably OK these days but I'm honestly not sure. I've never been able to touch the big firms. Good grades, top CPA exam scores, etc, but seemingly no interest there.
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Oct 25, 2017 20:39
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lifg posted:$120k. Tezzeract posted:Sorry for just catching up with this thread, but what is the '120k' for NYC and SF? Quoting this because I don’t know, and I hope someone else in the thread can help.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:03
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http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/ says $185k 
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Oct 25, 2017 21:10
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Keetron posted:Accountants are allowed to have beards these days? My, the times have changed! (Worked at KPMG in 2002/2003 and facial hair was a big NO.) I've done work for several of the big 4 accounting firms. I saw plenty of big, scary mountain man beards. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 21:10
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Eh that's not really that helpful. Actual cost of living isn't a multiplier on your salary unless you spend all that you make, and even if that was true, that doesn't mean prevailing wages between areas have the same ratio.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:32
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Hellblazer187 posted:Quick semi-related question. Does the verb "coding" carry a different connotation than "programming"? It seems like "coding" is used mostly by people who don't do it, or people trying to sell bootcamps, but this could just be a false perception on my end. In my opinion, yes, at least within the industry. "Coding" connotes less of a problem-solving element than "programming" or "software development" or "engineering". If someone in the industry referred to me as "a coder", I'd be offended.
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Oct 26, 2017 00:29
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That calculator's based on roughly ten year-old data. Don't pay any attention to it.
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Oct 26, 2017 00:29
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fantastic in plastic posted:In my opinion, yes, at least within the industry. "Coding" connotes less of a problem-solving element than "programming" or "software development" or "engineering". If someone in the industry referred to me as "a coder", I'd be offended. Ehh. The terms are basically interchangeable with slight differences for formality except for the small subset of people who get offended, then they mean vastly different things.
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Oct 26, 2017 03:05
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Thermopyle posted:Ehh. Personally, I still feel not worthy of calling myself a coder or whatever because of all the years of dealing with people who were complete assholes about it back when I was brand new to this stuff.
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Oct 26, 2017 03:30
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I’ve done the programming work with titles like Analyst II, Member of Technical Staff, and TBD. I learned to not care early.
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Oct 26, 2017 03:59
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I'm a "user experience designer" on paper. That is not what I do, at all, but maybe they thought it was interchangeable with developer. Personally I prefer "engineer" instead of programmer/coder because it means statistically you get paid more for absolutely no reason. Vincent Valentine fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 05:11
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At some places its no reason, but not necessarily. Some places do use 'software programmer' to mean basically code monkey / entry-level, where 'software engineer' is a step above where you're actually doing more high level design work. And then you've got 'software architect' above that, and yadda yadda. But really just get paid and your title is meaningless.
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Oct 26, 2017 06:13
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ohgodwhat posted:Eh that's not really that helpful. Actual cost of living isn't a multiplier on your salary unless you spend all that you make, and even if that was true, that doesn't mean prevailing wages between areas have the same ratio. It gets you in the ballpark which, when you're already in six figure territory ought to be Good Enough to know you're not getting screwed too hard. ultrafilter posted:That calculator's based on roughly ten year-old data. Don't pay any attention to it. it says right there posted:Source: C2ER. December 2015 Munkeymon fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 13:41
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Munkeymon posted:It gets you in the ballpark which, when you're already in six figure territory ought to be Good Enough to know you're not getting screwed too hard. It gets less accurate as incomes increase because more of your income goes towards savings. My cost of living is $60k and moving to NYC, maybe it's $90k, a $30k increase rather than the $100k increase that metric would predict. I guess what I'm saying is that if there's any better data, that would be appreciated. I know there's plenty of stuff about salaries out there, but every time I look, it's like people in SF are making $80k/year as software developers which does not seem correct.
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Oct 26, 2017 14:01
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