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OwlFancier posted:Are you deaf? What did I tell you earlier about alternative political organization? I'm sure you'd teach your children not to ever engage in violence with a nazi or have any strong opinion whatsoever but that's your dumbass problem, the rest of us promote ideologies which directly and unequivocally oppose fascism as an exercise in foolishness that will not solve your problems, and is absolutely unacceptably opposed to class cooperation. Willingness to beat the poo poo out of nazis to keep them down is a symptom of having a functioning brain not the sole goal of it. I'm going to teach them that violence is for self defense and on a grander scale to be used as a last resort. I'm not sure why you think I would teach them that strong opinions are a problem. That's an odd assumption to make. quote:Oh well the flag's different some of the time that's cracked it, definitely not the same thing being advertised as the last million loving times. quote:And guns don't even have loving rights, they should be easier to take action against than nazis, but still you've failed to do anything about it, and still you persist in this insane fantasy that the noble loving spirit of America will triumph and its exceptionalism will make it magically nazi proof.
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Oct 25, 2017 06:53
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Goon Danton posted:You can't fix fascism through a law-and-order mentality. They are law and order taken to its logical extreme. You won't get the police to break up the people who want a police state. If a police state started taking away rights even the Trump loving racist from Georgia would fight back. OwlFancier posted:How do you think you keep it at a population only of hardcore believers other than by opposing it with every tool at your disposal? quote:You can't obliterate the idea entirely but you can keep it down with organization and action, the law won't defend you. I don't think violence or a law will make hardcore Nazis stop believing their right, but if you want to stop them from having rallies then making it illegal for Nazis to have rallies might be a good start. And then you can go punch the rest. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 06:57
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What's Voter ID laws? To be clear this was a rhetorical question aimed at fallenturtle, without quoting them for the benefit of those who have them on ignore, claiming that conservative americans would immediately fight against attempts by a police state to diminish people's rights, I know what voter ID laws are (thanks for answering, anyway). fallenturtle seems since to have edited their post, so my question doesn't work as a rhetorical device any more.  E2: No, wait... nevermind. murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 07:09
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murphyslaw posted:What's Voter ID laws? Laws which mandate that every voter be able to identify themselves by ID. At its face it sounds uncontroversial (as it is in many nations) but in the US it is used to surgically discriminate against certain voter segments by drastically increasing the opportunity cost of them voting.
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Oct 25, 2017 07:18
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The flip side of voluntary voting is the state isn't inherently obligated to ensure it can handle 100% turnout with a high availability of polling stations, easy registration and so on.
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Oct 25, 2017 07:38
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boner confessor posted:i dont really have time to educate you on the history of 20th century protest movements and anti-fascism in america, if you're really interested and not a concern troll you can educate yourself. start by learning what antifa is an abbreviation for I was asking about punching fascists/Nazis. Not the entire anti-fascist movement or protest movements in general. fallenturtle posted:What evidence is there that punching is an effective solution to stopping fascism.  Woody Guthrie was writing songs, not punching Nazis. And in the late 40's we didn't just punch Nazis, we shot them.quote:oh cool, so at this point you've completely abandoned your original argument and you're only sticking around because someone is calling you wrong on the internet and this cannot stand. gently caress your ego you wishy washy softbrain
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Oct 25, 2017 07:39
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So post some.
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Oct 25, 2017 08:42
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fallenturtle posted:If a police state started taking away rights even the Trump loving racist from Georgia would fight back. Police departments across the country are using civil forfeiture procedures to commit literal highway robbery, and no one in a position of power seems inclined to stop them. Chicago PD set up secret black site prisons and no one cared. Police nationwide are claiming the right to kill anyone they want with impunity, and the response has consisted of an attempt to legalize running over people protesting it. A sheriff in Arizona set up what were (in his own words!) concentration camps for latinos, ran them for years, and got a presidential pardon when he finally got in trouble for it. That president's campaign rallies became famous for him exhorting his crowds to attack protestors and promising them legal aid if they did. Those Trump loving racists you have faith in have been cheering all of this on and screaming for more. They will never fight back against it, because it isn't their rights that are being taken away.
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Oct 25, 2017 14:55
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fallenturtle posted:I think the risk of America turning fascist is small. America is already fascist. hth
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Oct 25, 2017 15:16
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fallenturtle posted:I think the risk of America turning fascist is small. Would you venture to say that It Can't Happen Here, even? e: gently caress it. It's the name of a book. Read it. Read the book, fallenturtle. It was meant for you. Goon Danton fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 15:23
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put on the glasses, fallenturtle
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Oct 25, 2017 15:29
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If fallenturtle was so concerned with public opinion, then he'd heed the local public opinion that his thread derail is goddamn stupid and that he should shut the gently caress up already.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:02
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But I thought everyone continuing to quote him and reply to everything he says was going to do that!
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Oct 25, 2017 16:15
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JFairfax posted:America is already fascist. Um, no. Goon Danton posted:Police departments across the country are using civil forfeiture procedures to commit literal highway robbery, and no one in a position of power seems inclined to stop them. Chicago PD set up secret black site prisons and no one cared. Police nationwide are claiming the right to kill anyone they want with impunity, and the response has consisted of an attempt to legalize running over people protesting it. A sheriff in Arizona set up what were (in his own words!) concentration camps for latinos, ran them for years, and got a presidential pardon when he finally got in trouble for it. Yes, there's a lot of hosed up poo poo with police that needs to be rectified. quote:That president's campaign rallies became famous for him exhorting his crowds to attack protestors and promising them legal aid if they did. Those Trump loving racists you have faith in have been cheering all of this on and screaming for more. They will never fight back against it, because it isn't their rights that are being taken away. Tides are turning. A lot folks who supported him no longer support him. Goon Danton posted:Would you venture to say that It Can't Happen Here, even? I would not venture to say that. I don't think we're in danger of Trump instituting a dictatorship any more than we were under Obama. Two Beans posted:If fallenturtle was so concerned with public opinion, then he'd heed the local public opinion that his thread derail is goddamn stupid and that he should shut the gently caress up already. My derail? It takes two to tango. It would be easier to drop it if the response was more civil. By framing a rebuttal as an attack on the person the person feels more strongly compelled to respond to defend themselves. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 16:20
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fallenturtle posted:My derail? It takes two to tango. It would be easier to drop it if the response was more civil. By framing a rebuttal as an attack on the person the person feels more strongly compelled to respond to defend themselves. boner confessor posted:oh cool, so at this point you've completely abandonded your original argument and you're only sticking around because someone is calling you wrong on the internet and this cannot stand hey amigo, here's a tip - if you're arguing just to prevent the bad feelings that would come with losing an argument, you've already lost, hth it's not clear what you're arguing in favor of anymore since you've quietly backpedaled on all your original claims, and now you're just asserting that you couldn't possibly be wrong the "i DEMAND to see this thread's manager!" defense lmbo
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Oct 25, 2017 16:36
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fallenturtle posted:I would not venture to say that. I don't think we're in danger of Trump instituting a dictatorship any more than we were under Obama. read the book
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Oct 25, 2017 16:39
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Randler posted:*reaches into meme chest* Might as well not pass any law ever. You can't meaningfully legislate ideology, you have to actively engage in propaganda to sustain one or suppress one. Just passing a law saying "these symbols are illegal" isn't sufficient, Germany's best defence, as with everywhere, against fascism is the continued efforts of its citizens to oppose it. The law might help but it can't be effective without that engaged and active opposition in the populace.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:46
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boner confessor posted:hey amigo, here's a tip - if you're arguing just to prevent the bad feelings that would come with losing an argument, you've already lost, hth If you don't know what I'm arguing for then how to do know I backpedaled? And are you talking about this conversation or my participation in this thread as a whole? Is backpedaling different then changing your mind? Is changing your mind bad? For this current conversation I still stand by my original point: While punching helps dissuade the weak willed, it will not stop the periodic rallies and protests of fascists. If you want to stop the rallies and protests you have to get the general population on your side and pass anti-hate speech laws. I don't believe that the general pop will get behind antifa currently because the punch-first mentality plays into the narrative that the Nazis are the victims. I believe it would be more effective if antifa could get the Nazis to punch first. I believe that engaging in a campaign of mockery along with doxing (which I know Antifa does) would be more effective. That is not a fact, that is my opinion, so its not really a right or wrong type situation unless my opinion is tested. But even in a right/wrong I'm okay with being wrong, as I admitted earlier in this thread regarding Pewtiepie. I'm not okay with being told I'm loving stupid moron. Is it not problematic that people can't post anything in this thread about Nazi punching that isn't in 100% support without having a handful of people jump down their throat? Goon Danton posted:read the book Is there a point you feel isn't conveyed via Wikipedia's plot summary? The sort of measures Windrip takes to have dictatorial power once he's in office seem very unlikely to happen without opposition in current America. Trump has a GOP congress and senate and he couldn't even repeal the ACA. OwlFancier posted:You can't meaningfully legislate ideology, you have to actively engage in propaganda to sustain one or suppress one. Just passing a law saying "these symbols are illegal" isn't sufficient, Germany's best defence, as with everywhere, against fascism is the continued efforts of its citizens to oppose it. The law might help but it can't be effective without that engaged and active opposition in the populace. I agree, its a multi-prong approach that is needed. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 17:16
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Goon Danton posted:Would you venture to say that It Can't Happen Here, even? lol the sign i made for the women's march said It (Can't crossed out) HappenED Here fallenturtle wake up man.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:22
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fallenturtle posted:Is there a point you feel isn't conveyed via Wikipedia's plot summary? You need to be smacked upside the head with it until you read it.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:27
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Yardbomb posted:You need to be smacked upside the head with it until you read it. Dude, WTF?
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Oct 25, 2017 17:30
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fallenturtle posted:I agree, its a multi-prong approach that is needed. You most certainly do not agree with me.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:30
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OwlFancier posted:You most certainly do not agree with me. You're against anti-hate speech laws and information campaigns to educate why racism and fascism are bad? You're against a movement that targets fascists and exposes and mocks them?
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Oct 25, 2017 17:36
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Woah woah waoh everyone step back, I've read a wikipedia summary on this, I'm basically an expert.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:36
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Woah woah waoh everyone step back, I've read a wikipedia summary on this, I'm basically an expert. Is there a point you feel isn't conveyed via Wikipedia's plot summary or did you just want to fire off a snarky quip?
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Oct 25, 2017 17:42
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this is just embarrassing now, i'll check back in tomorrow
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Oct 25, 2017 17:46
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When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and demanding a summary.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:46
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fallenturtle posted:Is there a point you feel isn't conveyed via Wikipedia's plot summary or did you just want to fire off a snarky quip? Yes. Literally all the book that isn't in the summary on wikipedia. It turns out literature is this thing that uses its whole to talk about a moral or theme and generally speaking if there was so little of value or thought that you can get a whole understanding on the subject with a 2 paragraph summary it wouldn't have been a book in the first place. I'm hoping you're doing a gimmick because it's pretty sad that you don't understand how books work.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:47
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fallenturtle posted:You're against anti-hate speech laws and information campaigns to educate why racism and fascism are bad? You're against a movement that targets fascists and exposes and mocks them? I've been over this. Anti-hate-speech laws will not be turned on the Nazis, and will instead be turned on the people who oppose them. Because, get this, the cops are extremely lenient on the people who call for law and order and solving every problem with maximum force, and are also extremely harsh on people who call for fairness and justice. fallenturtle posted:Is there a point you feel isn't conveyed via Wikipedia's plot summary? The point you're missing is in the title, my dude. All your platitudes about our worst case scenarios being unlikely are based in your own desire to feel safe, rather than on actual observation of what's going on. I was going to write a little thing here about you eventually responding to concentration camps with "oh, well sure there are some things with the police I'd like to fix," but then I remembered that you already did that an hour and a half ago.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:48
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Groovelord Neato posted:fallenturtle wake up man. ft, put on the glasses
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Oct 25, 2017 17:50
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ft do yourself a favor and stop reading wikipedia and buy a book.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:52
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Help, I'm a turtle, I've fallen and I can't get up!
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Oct 25, 2017 17:52
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fallenturtle posted:You're against anti-hate speech laws and information campaigns to educate why racism and fascism are bad? You're against a movement that targets fascists and exposes and mocks them? I have spent many posts arguing at length why I don't think legal protection is particularly helpful and I suspect we have very different ideas of what constitutes an antifascist propaganda campaign given that you place so much faith in decorum.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:53
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:ft do yourself a favor and stop reading wikipedia and buy a book. You might even be able to borrow it from your local library for free, if our perfectly fine and normal society hasn't shut your local library down for being a waste of money yet!
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Oct 25, 2017 17:57
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Guavanaut posted:When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and demanding a summary. Summary is already provided, no one is demanding it, I'm just asking if it was adequate at conveying the point Danton wanted me to get. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yes. Literally all the book that isn't in the summary on wikipedia. It turns out literature is this thing that uses its whole to talk about a moral or theme and generally speaking if there was so little of value or thought that you can get a whole understanding on the subject with a 2 paragraph summary it wouldn't have been a book in the first place. I'm hoping you're doing a gimmick because it's pretty sad that you don't understand how books work. I know how books work... do you know how summaries work? Did you know summaries come in both brief and detailed forms? Danton told me to read the book. Books can have small intricate details that aren't always relevant to the overall plot and get left out of summaries. At the same time, summaries can cover the larger points of a book... for example summary covers the tools the antagonist used to get elected, it covers stop of the steps he took to seize power and make it a dictatorship. It also covers how the protagonist is a liberal and didn't believe it could happen until it was already happening. wikipedia posted:Though having previously foreshadowed some authoritarian measures in order to reorganize the United States government, Windrip rapidly outlaws dissent, incarcerates political enemies in concentration camps, and trains and arms a paramilitary force called the Minute Men, who terrorize citizens and enforce the policies of Windrip and his "corporatist" regime. One of his first acts as president is to eliminate the influence of the United States Congress, which draws the ire of many citizens as well as the legislators themselves. The Minute Men respond to protests against Windrip's decisions harshly, attacking demonstrators with bayonets. In addition to these actions, Windrip's administration, known as the "Corpo" government, curtails women's and minority rights, and eliminates individual states by subdividing the country into administrative sectors. The government of these sectors is managed by "Corpo" authorities, usually prominent businessmen or Minute Men officers. Those accused of crimes against the government appear before kangaroo courts presided over by "military judges". Despite these dictatorial (and "quasi-draconian") measures, a majority of Americans approve of them, seeing them as necessary but painful steps to restore American power. OwlFancier posted:I have spent many posts arguing at length why I don't think legal protection is particularly helpful and I suspect we have very different ideas of what constitutes an antifascist propaganda campaign given that you place so much faith in decorum. OK, np. Goon Danton posted:ft, put on the glasses They Live reference? You know, I've never actually seen that movie. I probably should some day. quote:The point you're missing is in the title, my dude. All your platitudes about our worst case scenarios being unlikely are based in your own desire to feel safe, rather than on actual observation of what's going on. I was going to write a little thing here about you eventually responding to concentration camps with "oh, well sure there are some things with the police I'd like to fix," but then I remembered that you already did that an hour and a half ago. Weirdo posted:Help, I'm a turtle, I've fallen and I can't get up! Really? Really? Goon Danton posted:You might even be able to borrow it from your local library for free, if our perfectly fine and normal society hasn't shut your local library down for being a waste of money yet! I live in San Francisco, so the libraries aren't going the way of the Happy Meal anytime soon. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 17:59
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Has anyone made the Voight-Kampf joke yet?
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Oct 25, 2017 18:16
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fallenturtle posted:I believe there are enough people in power that would stop such things from happening. Shall we all agree to disagree and get back to the thread topic or would you all prefer to troll me for a few more pages? The latter, because you somehow think that the people with power in this country would actually give a poo poo.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:17
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Guys, I read 1984 and I just don't see what you're worried about. We don't even have a Ministry of Truth!fallenturtle posted:They Live reference? You know, I've never actually seen that movie. I probably should some day. Just look at the IMDB page, it's basically the same thing.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:22
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This thread is tabby.txt. Rename it to youtube-antifa. I mean I basically agree with you but man.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:28
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lllllllllllllllllll posted:This thread is tabby.txt. Rename it to youtube-antifa. Dare I ask what tabby.txt is?
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